Dungeon Tanking -- is boss kiting normal?

Bjond · May 2021

I've done three dungeon groups so far, all via the dungeon finder queue. Two were classic role layout with a tank grabbing agro on a boss and keeping it locked down with stable facing; ie. they made it really easy to DPS as a newbie -- just find the back of the boss and work your rotation. The third group was awful; someone was grabbing agro, but then they'd kite all over the boss arena making it nearly impossible to DPS. Then they'd die or loose agro and it would turn on me and I'd die.

Is this kite-style of grouping normal? I wanted to start a vote to kick whoever queued as tank -- it's atrocious play by grouping standards of any other MMO -- but I'm waaaay too new here to know if this is normal for ESO or not. And, uh, I don't know how to check the UI to find out who queued as tank or how to kick (I'm assuming it's a r.click drop-down from the name on the group panel).

Also, I'm curious if ESO has a method where you can prevent someone from joining your group or you from joining theirs via the finder. Blacklisting/ignoring works for that in some other games. Does it work here, too? If there's a serious problem child in a group (eg. non-tank/heal queuing as tank/heal), I'd like to be able to permanently punt them from at least my game -- ie. never grouping with me again via finder.

Brrrofski · May 2021

Some bosses might have some mechanics at some point which not every tank will want to stand and hold their ground, but overall, kiting is not the normal way.

Sounds like you got someone who's more specced for damage and wanted to jump the queue. It happens a lot...

Minyassa · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

I've done three dungeon groups so far, all via the dungeon finder queue. Two were classic role layout with a tank grabbing agro on a boss and keeping it locked down with stable facing; ie. they made it really easy to DPS as a newbie -- just find the back of the boss and work your rotation. The third group was awful; someone was grabbing agro, but then they'd kite all over the boss arena making it nearly impossible to DPS. Then they'd die or loose agro and it would turn on me and I'd die.

Is this kite-style of grouping normal? I wanted to start a vote to kick whoever queued as tank -- it's atrocious play by grouping standards of any other MMO -- but I'm waaaay too new here to know if this is normal for ESO or not. And, uh, I don't know how to check the UI to find out who queued as tank or how to kick (I'm assuming it's a r.click drop-down from the name on the group panel).

Also, I'm curious if ESO has a method where you can prevent someone from joining your group or you from joining theirs via the finder. Blacklisting/ignoring works for that in some other games. Does it work here, too? If there's a serious problem child in a group (eg. non-tank/heal queuing as tank/heal), I'd like to be able to permanently punt them from at least my game -- ie. never grouping with me again via finder.

Unfortunately Ignoring someone does not bar them from being put into the same group as you. It really doesn't do anything but keep you from seeing their chat posts.

SpiritofESO · May 2021

Bjond · May 2021

[quote="Brrrofski;c-7251977"kiting is not the normal way.[/quote]

Ah, figured as much. I think the 2nd group's "tank" was actually a DPS, too. There was no one with a giant 40k HP line like the first group, but even if they were really mainly DPS, the tank job was handled just fine. BTW, bosses weren't all fully locked down. The tank does have to move, but all the other fights in the first two group were pretty easy to DPS as melee.

The 3rd was ridiculous. It was just a giant race around the arena rim for every single fight.

Minyassa wrote: »

Unfortunately Ignoring someone does not bar them from being put into the same group as you. It really doesn't do anything but keep you from seeing their chat posts.

That's extremely unfortunate.

Integral1900 · May 2021

It just means it’s someone so lazy and incompetent that they cannot be bothered to slot a taunt. If you queue as a tank you should have to at least have one slotted, if not, then the tank role should be blocked, failure to fix this problem is entirely ZOS’s fault. This nonsense has been going on for years. Hence the reason that most players avoid dungeons like the plague, especially the DLC ones where this kind of thing can become a real pain in the backside.

ligeglad · May 2021

Some bosses cant be taunted. Like last boss in direfrost!

Bjond · May 2021

Integral1900 wrote: »

It just means it’s someone so lazy and incompetent that they cannot be bothered to slot a taunt. If you queue as a tank you should have to at least have one slotted, if not, then the tank role should be blocked, failure to fix this problem is entirely ZOS’s fault.

II suspect the player did have a taunt. They weren't doing any DPS. They'd run in, grab agro, then off to the races. I swapped to bow at first on seeing this, but I would eventually pull agro and die doing that. I'm CP 130 in a mix of white CP10 & CP70. My tiny newbie DPS should not have been anywhere near sufficient to pull agro. I did manage my first in-combat res of another, though (a fellow dps that experienced a similar agro-pull death). Interesting mechanic; might need to bind a less cumbersome key as it's a press-and-hold.

TBH, I don't care if they have the traditional tools of tanking or not. If they think they can do the job without them, I'm happy giving them a try. It's when they don't even try to do the job that I'd take issue. Strategically speaking, a tank with high DPS is far preferable to one with none. 'Dunno if that style works here or not, but I've walked that line in other MMOs; it's a lot of fun if you can pull it off -- both watching a good one in group or playing as one.

Septimus_Magna · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

It just means it’s someone so lazy and incompetent that they cannot be bothered to slot a taunt. If you queue as a tank you should have to at least have one slotted, if not, then the tank role should be blocked, failure to fix this problem is entirely ZOS’s fault.

II suspect the player did have a taunt. They weren't doing any DPS. They'd run in, grab agro, then off to the races. I swapped to bow at first on seeing this, but I would eventually pull agro and die doing that. I'm CP 130 in a mix of white CP10 & CP70. My tiny newbie DPS should not have been anywhere near sufficient to pull agro. I did manage my first in-combat res of another, though (a fellow dps that experienced a similar agro-pull death). Interesting mechanic; might need to bind a less cumbersome key as it's a press-and-hold.

TBH, I don't care if they have the traditional tools of tanking or not. If they think they can do the job without them, I'm happy giving them a try. It's when they don't even try to do the job that I'd take issue. Strategically speaking, a tank with high DPS is far preferable to one with none. 'Dunno if that style works here or not, but I've walked that line in other MMOs; it's a lot of fun if you can pull it off -- both watching a good one in group or playing as one.

A tank should make high dps possible, not produce high dps. A tanks job is to control the fight, taunt the boss and elite adds, buff/debuff and provide synergies.

For normal non-DLC dungeons you dont need a tank, you can easily solo these as DD so in this case its no problem if a DD slots a taunt. But it really helps if the boss stands still and stays inside all the AOEs. Its really annoying if you drop your destro ult and the tank just walks the boss out of the AOE.

mobicera · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

Integral1900 wrote: »

It just means it’s someone so lazy and incompetent that they cannot be bothered to slot a taunt. If you queue as a tank you should have to at least have one slotted, if not, then the tank role should be blocked, failure to fix this problem is entirely ZOS’s fault.

II suspect the player did have a taunt. They weren't doing any DPS. They'd run in, grab agro, then off to the races. I swapped to bow at first on seeing this, but I would eventually pull agro and die doing that. I'm CP 130 in a mix of white CP10 & CP70. My tiny newbie DPS should not have been anywhere near sufficient to pull agro. I did manage my first in-combat res of another, though (a fellow dps that experienced a similar agro-pull death). Interesting mechanic; might need to bind a less cumbersome key as it's a press-and-hold.

TBH, I don't care if they have the traditional tools of tanking or not. If they think they can do the job without them, I'm happy giving them a try. It's when they don't even try to do the job that I'd take issue. Strategically speaking, a tank with high DPS is far preferable to one with none. 'Dunno if that style works here or not, but I've walked that line in other MMOs; it's a lot of fun if you can pull it off -- both watching a good one in group or playing as one.

Threat doesn't exist in this game.
You can not pull agro from doing dps or hold it with dps.
It's kinda random.
You hold threat simply by taunting.
You taunt with one of the skills that taunt and you hold aggro for 15s re-apply and taunt is held for another 15s.
There are things like taunt immunity that can occur because an enemy is simply immune to it or with 2 people taunting the same mob too quickly.
It's a common misconception here probably brought in by other mmorpg that do contain a threat system.

Bjond · May 2021

mobicera wrote: »

Threat doesn't exist in this game.
You can not pull agro from doing dps or hold it with dps.

Your response prompted me to google agro for ESO and I found that it's the "S" in DPS, not the "D"; it's frequency combined with inactivity on the part of the current target. Here's the original post. It's a great read.

The implications of the data in that post are that you could indeed hold agro without a taunt. Not by doing the most, but via first-in plus constant action (heal or harm). I'd want a taunt anyway as a tank because I'm not perfect, but it certainly looks possible. It also explains why experienced/good DPS "hold" agro -- they do their rotations quickly and automatically even under pressure.

Nestor · May 2021

Most Normal Dungeons go faster with a Real Tank in the Group than just 4 DPS . Between the Debuffs on the Boss, the Buffs to the Group, and holding the Boss in position, the DPS are free to apply Target Dummy levels of damage as they don't have to dodge or run utility skills in their rotation.

Fight is over faster with a Tank.

Minyassa · May 2021

The kiting suggests to me that he's afraid to get hit. That kind of belies the whole reason that we named them "tanks". If your tank can't withstand getting hit, it's just a gun on wheels, not a tank.

mobicera · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Threat doesn't exist in this game.
You can not pull agro from doing dps or hold it with dps.

Your response prompted me to google agro for ESO and I found that it's the "S" in DPS, not the "D"; it's frequency combined with inactivity on the part of the current target. Here's the original post. It's a great read.

The implications of the data in that post are that you could indeed hold agro without a taunt. Not by doing the most, but via first-in plus constant action (heal or harm). I'd want a taunt anyway as a tank because I'm not perfect, but it certainly looks possible. It also explains why experienced/good DPS "hold" agro -- they do their rotations quickly and automatically even under pressure.

First in will not hold indefinitely.
It's not even 100% guaranteed to actually set the mobs on the first in.
The dps aren't really holding threat, it's all chance.
Rng gives and it takes away, the dps may run in to something not taunted and hold the boss the entire time, it may run in and 3s later this boss is running this way and that changing targets.
Play a tank for a month you will see the countless flaws presented.

Amottica · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

My tiny newbie DPS should not have been anywhere near sufficient to pull agro. .

I admit I am new to ESO so I am far from an expert. But it seems that it is not possible for DPS to do enough DPS to pull agro if the tank is doing its job. From what I have heard, and kind of seen, tanks hold agro only by taunting and it can only be overridden by a taunt from another player. Obviously, this has nothing to do with auto-attacks where a random target is chosen or at least two bosses I have seen that do appear to ignore the taunt like the last boss in Direfrost Keep.

So if you are pulling agro that it seems the tank is snoozing or no one is actually tanking.

NoMoreChillies · May 2021

what were the dungeons? what boss fights?

Certain bosses in certain dungeons ignore taunt and run around attacking everyone. Its a stupid mechanic that nobody likes

etchedpixels · May 2021

Bjond wrote: »

The implications of the data in that post are that you could indeed hold agro without a taunt. Not by doing the most, but via first-in plus constant action (heal or harm). I'd want a taunt anyway as a tank because I'm not perfect, but it certainly looks possible. It also explains why experienced/good DPS "hold" agro -- they do their rotations quickly and automatically even under pressure.

A good tank will actually use the first to damage in many situations as well as a real taunt. Because most taunts in ESO are not AoE it's an effective way to hold the trash together whilst taunting stuff properly. It's one of the reasons tanks hate DPS who attack stuff ahead without knowing what they are doing (the sorc with the 70k dps aoe who leaps into the trash ahead so the tank doesn't have to do anything is a different matter

).

Verbum_Rithimus · May 2021

that 'tank' was fake, as you now know
so, vote to kick to make them go
don't waste your time with role betrayers;
but save it for the honest players

FriedEggSandwich · May 2021

mobicera wrote: »

Bjond wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Threat doesn't exist in this game.
You can not pull agro from doing dps or hold it with dps.

Your response prompted me to google agro for ESO and I found that it's the "S" in DPS, not the "D"; it's frequency combined with inactivity on the part of the current target. Here's the original post. It's a great read.

The implications of the data in that post are that you could indeed hold agro without a taunt. Not by doing the most, but via first-in plus constant action (heal or harm). I'd want a taunt anyway as a tank because I'm not perfect, but it certainly looks possible. It also explains why experienced/good DPS "hold" agro -- they do their rotations quickly and automatically even under pressure.

First in will not hold indefinitely.
It's not even 100% guaranteed to actually set the mobs on the first in.
The dps aren't really holding threat, it's all chance.
Rng gives and it takes away, the dps may run in to something not taunted and hold the boss the entire time, it may run in and 3s later this boss is running this way and that changing targets.
Play a tank for a month you will see the countless flaws presented.

This is correct. The only way to guarantee agro is with a taunt. The mobs and bosses seem to have no code in them to determine the greatest threat, it appears to be all rng. I was recently helping my brother and his low-level friends through some dungeons with my 900cp sorc. I was going in first to try to grab agro, but much of the time I would light attack the boss only to have them run straight to the back of the group and pick on the lowest level player who hadn't even fired a shot lol, and it can be impossible to get the agro off them. So then I had to persuade the poor low-level to either stop kiting or to kite round in a circle to keep them in the ground dots. Tanks should not be kiting constantly because it massively drops the dps of the DDs, and also wastes their resources if they attempt to keep the target in some aoe.

jle30303 · May 2021

If *nobody* is taunting, how does aggro work? Since "taunt" naturally overrides anything else - except for those mobs that cannot be taunted (e.g. Drodda of Icereach) or have a non-tauntable attack which goes for a random player even if a tank is properly holding taunt (e.g. one of The Whisperer's big hit attacks in veteran mode.)

deleted221106-002999 · May 2021

jle30303 wrote: »

If *nobody* is taunting, how does aggro work? Since "taunt" naturally overrides anything else - except for those mobs that cannot be taunted (e.g. Drodda of Icereach) or have a non-tauntable attack which goes for a random player even if a tank is properly holding taunt (e.g. one of The Whisperer's big hit attacks in veteran mode.)

First player to inflict damage has an intial 'soft' taunt which can be overriden by any subsequent attacks; this is why your real tank prefers to go first, maybe use an aoe to pull inititally then targets in decreasing priority with a full taunt skill.

When you have a truly fake, super-kiting sphincter of a queue jumper - may they be forever booted unceremoniously from all content - then it's usually the healer or highest dps character that ends up with aggro. It's possibly why a lot of players who start as healers move into tanking (it's why I did - may as well do the full role if my character ends up as de facto tank/healer anyway).

I suspect whatever algorithm is determing who has aggro does that based on threat/utility level of the character so the more you do the higher the liklihood your character will have aggro - although why some bosses seem to prefer the minimal damage bow light attack spammer who invariably resets the boss just before they die beats me.

FrancisCrawford · May 2021

Among the 30+ dungeons I'm familiar with, I can think of 2 bosses total that it used to be recommended practice to kite, and in both cases the past tense is probably appropriate. Those are Maw of the Infernal in Banished Cells 2, which I've never actually seen kited, and the Planar Inhibitor in White-Gold Tower, which I definitely have.

There are others who can't be taunted or who jump around a lot, but kiting isn't standard practice for them.

MirandaSharp · June 2021

Sounds like you had a fake tank... I sometimes move about as a tank but that is usually to grab enemies if they stray or attack other players. Running around or away is typical of a dps trying to avoid damage. You will (unfortunately) quite often find that dps especially for the "normal" randoms queue as tanks or healers just to get in quickly. (And get it done even quicker)

The Elder Scrolls Online

Dungeon Tanking -- is boss kiting normal?

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