The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
What's the ideal scaling for damage proc sets? [Poll]
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Jameson18✭✭✭✭✭max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)Anyone notice how the option that goes live is, on a relatively consistent basis, the thing that polls the worst?5 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionScale the exact same way as abilities or forget about it!!PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.0 -
max(stamina_mod+weapon_damage, magica_mod+spell_damage)
Ruining procset damage for tanks was original intention behind this thing.grumpy_pants95 wrote: »and with tanks 30% max health + 15% of each res
Yeah because the devs have got NOTHING better to do thank ruin sets because they don't like tanks.
Dude, do you even hear yourself?
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divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭max(stamina_mod, magica_mod)grumpy_pants95 wrote: »Yeah because the devs have got NOTHING better to do thank ruin sets because they don't like tanks.
Dude, do you even hear yourself?
Tanks that can do insane damage via sets ruin PvP at the current moment. People hate it so much they'd rather play noproc with 10 flat boring sets. Yes, I hear myself.
Best 1vs1 build in PvP is the one that is min-maxed in terms of damage-toughness-sustain. And it happens to be maxHP + maxArmor + procset damage + recovery glyphs at this moment, because going stam/mag instead health, or going weapon damage instead of recoveries makes you lose a lot while gain very little. First part is okay, second part isn't. It means that proc sets doing very high amount of damage on their own.
Now, nerfing proc sets flat means they will never be usable in PvE. That's why they scaled them. Then they raised the WD/SD requirements on achieving current values instead of doing hard/softcap, so yeah, it's still not usable in PvE.Edited by divnyi on May 20, 2021 10:30AM1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Your optiongrumpy_pants95 wrote: »
Ruining procset damage for tanks was original intention behind this thing.grumpy_pants95 wrote: »and with tanks 30% max health + 15% of each res
Yeah because the devs have got NOTHING better to do thank ruin sets because they don't like tanks.
Dude, do you even hear yourself?
They're talking about PvP.0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionScalling would never work because it more or less forces players into specific builds to be effective, effectively removing hybrid builds completely.
A good example:
Iam a Tank. I have both sets that are "tank" sets and scale on max health having 100% at ~43k and "healer" sets that scale on max stam/mag having 100% at ~39k. I have ~37k health and ~30k stamina. This means that both set types are now at 75% efficiency. There is no way of making both set types work at the same time. Making the "healer" ones work at 100%+ is impossible and making the "tank" ones work would be wasteful because the excess health is pointless. So no matter how i turn it this change would force me to go into build decisions that make no sense. It also prevents me from going for hybrid builds for easier dungeons nearly completely.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Scalling would never work because it more or less forces players into specific builds to be effective, effectively removing hybrid builds completely.
A good example:
Iam a Tank. I have both sets that are "tank" sets and scale on max health having 100% at ~43k and "healer" sets that scale on max stam/mag having 100% at ~39k. I have ~37k health and ~30k stamina. This means that both set types are now at 75% efficiency. There is no way of making both set types work at the same time. Making the "healer" ones work at 100%+ is impossible and making the "tank" ones work would be wasteful because the excess health is pointless. So no matter how i turn it this change would force me to go into build decisions that make no sense. It also prevents me from going for hybrid builds for easier dungeons nearly completely.
I believe this is exactly why the scaling was done the way it was - so nobody can use multiple types of proc sets to their utmost effectiveness. I believe presently Chokethorn + Syvarra's Scales on the same build is probably "the meta" in proc-enabled PvP, and it is very unlikely to remain that way with this split scaling.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionUrzigurumash wrote: »Scalling would never work because it more or less forces players into specific builds to be effective, effectively removing hybrid builds completely.
A good example:
Iam a Tank. I have both sets that are "tank" sets and scale on max health having 100% at ~43k and "healer" sets that scale on max stam/mag having 100% at ~39k. I have ~37k health and ~30k stamina. This means that both set types are now at 75% efficiency. There is no way of making both set types work at the same time. Making the "healer" ones work at 100%+ is impossible and making the "tank" ones work would be wasteful because the excess health is pointless. So no matter how i turn it this change would force me to go into build decisions that make no sense. It also prevents me from going for hybrid builds for easier dungeons nearly completely.
I believe this is exactly why the scaling was done the way it was - so nobody can use multiple types of proc sets to their utmost effectiveness. I believe presently Chokethorn + Syvarra's Scales on the same build is probably "the meta" in proc-enabled PvP, and it is very unlikely to remain that way with this split scaling.
Problem is iam talking about PvE.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Scalling would never work because it more or less forces players into specific builds to be effective, effectively removing hybrid builds completely.
A good example:
Iam a Tank. I have both sets that are "tank" sets and scale on max health having 100% at ~43k and "healer" sets that scale on max stam/mag having 100% at ~39k. I have ~37k health and ~30k stamina. This means that both set types are now at 75% efficiency. There is no way of making both set types work at the same time. Making the "healer" ones work at 100%+ is impossible and making the "tank" ones work would be wasteful because the excess health is pointless. So no matter how i turn it this change would force me to go into build decisions that make no sense. It also prevents me from going for hybrid builds for easier dungeons nearly completely.
I believe this is exactly why the scaling was done the way it was - so nobody can use multiple types of proc sets to their utmost effectiveness. I believe presently Chokethorn + Syvarra's Scales on the same build is probably "the meta" in proc-enabled PvP, and it is very unlikely to remain that way with this split scaling.
Problem is iam talking about PvE.
Two questions about PvE:
1. Healing Procs: Did Tanks in Earthgore + Almalexia's + Battalion Defender (etc.) undermine the Healer role?
2. Damage Procs: Did the fact that Procs got no benefit from Olorime, Powerful Assault, etc., mean they were inherently underpowered in an optimized group compared to a Stats Set which combined better with Olorime, PA, etc?
If so, shouldn't the scaling on procs be beneficial for both rejuvenating the Healer Role and making Damage Procs more viable in an optimized group? I can see the argument that Procs were enjoyed in lieu of optimization, but was that necessarily the most desirable status quo? I see even new players skipping straight to farming nCR, or whatever, with little interest in the 100s of other sets.
As for the excess health issue on Tank Sets, I agree. Maybe their scaling should be set at 35k HP and then capped. I don't think a cap on Damage or Healing Procs is ideal, but as for these few Tank Sets, I agree it makes no sense to encourage running at 45k HP if nobody needs to. Many people absolutely abhor Tanks in PvP, so that's a difficult issue. Not that they're wrong to do so - a good tank should engender anger from their opponents, but like many say, PvE bosses don't have forum accounts.
Edited by Urzigurumash on May 21, 2021 10:52PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionUrzigurumash wrote: »1. Healing Procs: Did Tanks in Earthgore + Almalexia's + Battalion Defender (etc.) undermine the Healer role?
I always saw these as additions for specific cases where the healer output is either not enought or specific tactics or mechanics required it. I never saw them as a case of removing a healer.Urzigurumash wrote: »2. Damage Procs: Did the fact that Procs got no benefit from Olorime, Powerful Assault, etc., mean they were inherently underpowered in an optimized group compared to a Stats Set which combined better with Olorime, PA, etc?
The problem is not organized groups, is everyone else. The thing with Proc sets is that they enabled beginners or medium level players to close the gap to experienced players a bit easier by handing out "free damage". The scaling will primarily hit these players. For experienced players its very easy to modify builds and make them work like before. For inexperienced players this scaling means an effective power loss. The way the scaling work also goes towards that intention.Urzigurumash wrote: »I see even new players skipping straight to farming nCR, or whatever, with little interest in the 100s of other sets.
Gaining some of the trial sets is relatively easy and the big trial groups enable less good players to make progress in gear without needing progress in skill. Players doing this often follow guides or advice and as i said, for beginenrs proc sets where an easy way to catch up a bit in the damage department.Urzigurumash wrote: »As for the excess health issue on Tank Sets, I agree. Maybe their scaling should be set at 35k HP and then capped. I don't think a cap on Damage or Healing Procs is ideal, but as for these few Tank Sets, I agree it makes no sense to encourage running at 45k HP if nobody needs to. Many people absolutely abhor Tanks in PvP, so that's a difficult issue. Not that they're wrong to do so - a good tank should engender anger from their opponents, but like many say, PvE bosses don't have forum accounts.
Its healers too. The way procs are scaled forces healers to go into max magicka, but thats not the only relevant statt for healing. These changes give players a wrong impression what stats are important.
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem is not organized groups, is everyone else. The thing with Proc sets is that they enabled beginners or medium level players to close the gap to experienced players a bit easier by handing out "free damage". The scaling will primarily hit these players. For experienced players its very easy to modify builds and make them work like before. For inexperienced players this scaling means an effective power loss. The way the scaling work also goes towards that intention.
Right, I get that, but is that ideal? Use proc sets for when you're learning, but then put on stats sets (other than Rele) when you finally are good enough to start optimizing for group play. Or is it nice that now it's possible you can wear a Damage Proc set in an optimized group if you like, and maybe not have to farm those AY rings, or whatever?
About Healing Procs encouraging Healers to spec in an unoptimized manner, I don't know enough about Healing to even look for a silver lining there, but I see how it might be preferable for PvP balance.
About Earthgore on Tanks - did every 3 DD group doing Score Runs on BRP or DSA have a Healing Proc on the tank, or were many of them able to survive with just self-heals on the DDs? I have no clue, but I understand the motivation to discourage Tanks from running Earthgore while keeping it viable on Healers.
Edited by Urzigurumash on May 22, 2021 12:49AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
IxSTALKERxI✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Your optionDamage should be capped at initial PTS values.Damage focused proc-based events will scale with the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage.
You must have 5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage to reach the original value of many sets.
Healing focused proc-based events will scale with the higher of your Max Magicka or Stamina.
You must have 38,350 Max Magicka or Stamina to reach the original value of many sets.
Tanking focused proc-based events will either scale with your Max Health, and in some rare cases, will use the higher of your Physical or Spell Resistance.
You must have 38,350 Max Health or 27,890 Physical or Spell Resistance to reach the original value of many sets.
So, for an example:
-proc set does 5000 damage with 5478 weapon damage.
-proc set still only does 5000 damage with >5478 weapon damage.
-proc set does <5000 damage with <5478 weapon damage.
So like, the proc sets scale up to the value but then don't go higher.NA | PC | Aldmeri DominionLaser Eyes AR 26 Arcanist | Stalker V AR 41 Warden | I Stalker I AR 42 NB | Stalkersaurus AR 31 Templar | Stalker Ill AR 31 Sorc | Nigel the Great of BlackwaterFormer Emperor x11 campaign cyclesVenatus Officer | RIP RÁGE | YouTube Channel2 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭No scaling [current live]Can we step back from the idea that it's either an Optimized Trial Group or beginners / inexperienced players?
There is a significant number of PvE players caring little for trials or perfectly setup dungeon groups that still run Vet Dungeons, DLC hardmodes included, and are optimizing their characters around that. They expect little group support as a matter of fact, and in that environment, proc sets have been a very competitive choice. Coupled with the visuals and flavour this also means they're extremely prevalent among those people.
This group is also the one that is least likely to ever reach the weapon or spell damage requirements, and thus the hardest hit by this change in PvE.4 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionUrzigurumash wrote: »The problem is not organized groups, is everyone else. The thing with Proc sets is that they enabled beginners or medium level players to close the gap to experienced players a bit easier by handing out "free damage". The scaling will primarily hit these players. For experienced players its very easy to modify builds and make them work like before. For inexperienced players this scaling means an effective power loss. The way the scaling work also goes towards that intention.
Right, I get that, but is that ideal? Use proc sets for when you're learning, but then put on stats sets (other than Rele) when you finally are good enough to start optimizing for group play. Or is it nice that now it's possible you can wear a Damage Proc set in an optimized group if you like, and maybe not have to farm those AY rings, or whatever?
About Healing Procs encouraging Healers to spec in an unoptimized manner, I don't know enough about Healing to even look for a silver lining there, but I see how it might be preferable for PvP balance.
About Earthgore on Tanks - did every 3 DD group doing Score Runs on BRP or DSA have a Healing Proc on the tank, or were many of them able to survive with just self-heals on the DDs? I have no clue, but I understand the motivation to discourage Tanks from running Earthgore while keeping it viable on Healers.
I dont think that a small group of players being able to do certain things should be the focus for this kind of balancing.
Looking on the mid tier, where most players are sooner or later, this change effectively removes build options and gives bad hints on how to build.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Your optionVery simple.
The goals for Procs should be:
• For a low-medium dps player.... Procs “raise the floor” by providing tons of free damage. Who will complain about 15K DPS players jumping to 35K from Procs. This would be great and more extreme than the Live non-scaling Procs.
• For high dps players.... stat sets+good rotations are still best. Same as on Live, though proc sets+good rotation can be close enough to be a not terrible option.
• Procs maybe critically strike again, though another route is to make them so strong they don’t need to Crit. Scales from highest offensive stats. Add soft caps for proc sets if they (besides a few Procs such as Relequen) start to outshine stat sets for high dps players.
• There’s no way to have useful Procs for PvE without them being OP in PvP. Battle Spirit should heavily influence Procs.
Edited by Vaoh on May 22, 2021 2:23PM1 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No scaling [current live]They should be left alone, if they want to balance them it should be done with battle spirit, no reason the screw over fun non META builds in PVE.
With the spell and weapon damage I average on my characters I am looking at a 50% reduction in damage from the sets, meaning they are going into storage and I won't be going out of my way to farm other proc sets, if these changes go ahead.
One of the points of the CP rework was to encourage build diversity, all this does is force people into stat sets, which I personally find boring, the damage the proc sets do on live is just enough to make them usable, if anything some of them could do with a slight buff for the PVE side of things, rounding out some of the damage numbers the sets do.
Good chance these scaling changes are going to put people off going into vet dungeons to get monster sets, what incentive do they have if they are reduced to a largely useless state where people are better off running two one piece stat bonuses instead of a full monster set.1 -
DTStormfox✭✭✭✭✭max(stamina_mod+weapon_damage, magica_mod+spell_damage)Max resource stats and weapon/spell damage stats but balanced accordingly because in my experience it is much easier to get e.g. 7k weapon damage + 30k stamina than 7k spell damage + 30k magicka.0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭Your optionWith the spell and weapon damage I average on my characters I am looking at a 50% reduction in damage from the sets, meaning they are going into storage and I won't be going out of my way to farm other proc sets, if these changes go ahead.
Thats not the only problem. At least one of my self heal Tank sets is now based on max health. Requiring me to have 43k, which i of course dont have, so iam looking at 75% efficiency. The same goes for max armor scale dones. I also have some healer specific sets that go down to 75% because i naturally dont have 39k resources. The way i play my tank is completely fine and efficient, still some of my sets end up being way less effective.
Other problem will be skill weapons that simply also drop down heavily.Good chance these scaling changes are going to put people off going into vet dungeons to get monster sets, what incentive do they have if they are reduced to a largely useless state where people are better off running two one piece stat bonuses instead of a full monster set.
Healers will likely still use monster sets. Tanks will be limited to specific ones. DDs wil likely mix 2 1 pieces or go for some of the skill weapons that are not heavily effected.
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Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭No scaling [current live]Heh, that tanks and healers will suddenly be hilariously limited in monster sets (and some normal sets) to use is even more excessive.1 -
GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭On console so havent played the new update yet. However I do think it is kind of a bummer that without running 2 pc zaan this patch ever single set pc bonus im running is just a line of crit.
Like stam has relequin, kinras, 2 really cool ability altering weapons. Then Im just over hear on mag with mothers, medusa, 2 1pc crit monster sets and maelstrom inferno that doesnt even do anything cool with the same weapon type on both bars because lightning isnt useful and ice is for support.
I really dont think nerfing crit is the way to change it either. We need good replacement sets with cool effects. It just seems like all the really good mag sets are just straight stat boosts
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