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Fake healers and a suggestion to stop them
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Supertonicbaker✭✭✭Now to preface, I’ve stopped pugging/pvp after burning crusade came out for WoW as I just didn’t need that kind of toxicity in my life, so take my stupid idea with a grain of salt. Although I’m sure most of you hardcore vet end gamers can possibly make it better.
Anyways, why not implement for new characters a “training” type group finder where whatever you lock in as gets a preset of skills, weapons, and armor specifically to teach that role set in, idk, the base game dungeons or something. That way, you can see what kind of skills you’ll need in your build, what kind of armor and all that. Also, it’ll have milestones to reach so you can advance to the next phase like “Tanks: Taunt enemies for X amount of time. Healers: Make sure the group doesn’t wipe X amount of times.” or whatever. And it can be set to three phases. The first phase teaches mechanics, so it’ll have “Block X amount of charged attacks.” or “Roll out of certain attacks X amount of times.” and it’ll have those floating hints and tips when something is about to go down for those not quite making it. Then the second phase teaches the more difficult mechanics “Stop boss from putting out flame.” “Stay X amount of meters close to boss and not group wipe.” etc. Then the third phase, which is a regular dungeon run without tips and help with your own skills and weapons but with the same kinds of milestones to reach in order to unlock regular group and vet mode. Ohh, and if you already know all that, there could be a min/max on the milestones so you can bypass it all and go straight to the regular group finder.
And if people still fake tank/healer, you can give them some reports and with enough they’ll have to “re-learn” it so they can stop being jerks. Idk, it might get people who normally don’t queue to start practicing with other people, learn their roles, find out which one suits them best, learn their roles, and realize that it’s a group effort as well as LEARNING THEIR ROLES.
But again, I haven’t grouped in ages so I might just be grabbing me some sort of imaginifications from a simplicitified backwood solotication player.1 -
scrosedk✭✭✭ZOS need to provide a "Marked as Fake/Unwanted" function to the PUG dungeon system. Players are still free to choose whether they wanna play honestly or not. But the victims now have the option to mark the fakers. Once marked the faker will no longer show up in the PUG of the one who has marked them. Yes the faker may still be at large until he gets marked by all players but this mechanism at least ensures that one players won't fall victim of the same faker twice.Most people think Time is just like a river flowing in a single direction silently and unchanged, but it unveiled its totally astonishing truth to me: Time is an ocean in a raging storm...1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I walk on true tank a alittle time ago in simple DLC dunguan.
My tank can stand HMs of any Trial or HM of DLC including stone garden with no healing or just little support in Stone Garden HM.
And what do you think ?
Party wipe me 5 times !!! They do not bush, they all way dead.
And 100% agr on me ! Real healer.
We can not pass untill i swap DD and solo it.
Fake tanks and healers you say.
I see only fake DDs problem.6 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭The most bad is that PEOPLE who play BAD and are USELESS in party - gives advices how is better to do.
If you CAN NOT PLAY GOOD = DO NOT GIVE ADVICES !!!
If you can not pass some thing people SOLO - it do not about fake roles - YOU ARE ALL FAKES !!!
So just think about it.
Do not like how some one do something - take Shield / Healing stuff in your OWN HANDS - and do better.
If you do not like some thing go away.
ZOS can do nothing you be needed - if you can not do anything good.
If you can not do anything - you always be no need.
Or do UNDAUNTED quests for roles.
That OR you will not PASS and will not go dunguans - or it will be SO SIMPLE again - that nothing change.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on May 24, 2021 2:18PM5 -
iksde✭✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »You probably know that even the most difficult dungeons can be completed without a healer. Finder is used by many people to get 600 wpd / spd and experience / geode. By introducing any restrictions on the role, you will strike at experienced players who can play without a healer.
?? um no
um yes? as Im not running in hardcore endgamers community yet I know few players capable of, have done triples with 3dd and tank on dungs like stone garden, moongrave etc
Im myself close to them but still need a bit more epxerience toward such hard dung triples but already all triples from all other dungs I was doing with group without healer
and as a Templar Tank I prefer a traditional group as I find that more reliable. I can only do so much self healing and buffing and could use a Healer there to keep me alive.
Not everyone is up to that level of skill and it should be encourage for people to learn the traditional team before experimenting.
and here lies problem xD (no offence :P)
I think we all know state of templar tank xD and so here I understand your need for healer in team
and so what I was writing about triples - welp - only dk or necro or ocassionally warden tank - reason why they dont need healer when also rest of DD's dont need him while still capable of good support for team while tanking everything and surviving alone0 -
Xebov✭✭✭✭✭
✭ZOS need to provide a "Marked as Fake/Unwanted" function to the PUG dungeon system. Players are still free to choose whether they wanna play honestly or not. But the victims now have the option to mark the fakers. Once marked the faker will no longer show up in the PUG of the one who has marked them. Yes the faker may still be at large until he gets marked by all players but this mechanism at least ensures that one players won't fall victim of the same faker twice.
I can already see bad tanks and healers being flagged because they are not good enought.
The problem with all the ideas brought up is that they focus on a quick solution with the question "how to prevent fakers from queueing?". Nearly noone thinks about "how do these ideas impact real support players?". Many DDs dont care about support players unless they need them and even then they just want them but dont want to solve actual issues.
A week ago we had a thread about fake tanks that ended with Tanks clearly stating what the problems are from a Tank perspective, nearly no DDs participated in it.
For every DD that thinks fake support roles are bad, try to suffer through dungeons with fake DDs that barely hit the 10k DPS mark even at 500-1000 CP. But of course we cant call them fake because tehy are intentially bad, but4 -
pihlaja✭✭✭Some of the suggestions here don’t seem very thoroughly thought, and here are my initial thoughts why I feel that way:
1. Role lock (permanent or for a month):
I don’t think those fake healers in PUGs would even blink while selecting to be a healer for a month. That’s their mindset already that a healer isn’t needed and therefore they are certain that it’s better if they select the role instead of a “dead-weight” real healer.
Instead this would limit options of real healers who for example like to respec their character for some solo content occasionally and queue as a dd during those times and queue as a healer while in healer spec. Take my main healer as an example; currently she remains as healer for the weekends and occasionally on Mondays/Tuesdays when we have trials. But for the rest of the week I change her CPs and morphs to a dd so I can practice magden and also run vMaelstrom with one magicka character I’m relatively comfortable with in addition to my stamblade (I’m trying to farm stuff from there currently). Role lock would prevent me from doing daily randoms during the weekdays unless I queued as a fake healer then, since I would be role locked to healer but being in a dd spec.
2. HPS requirement
Seriously? No. Like said, most of the dungeons don’t really need a dedicated healer. This actually means that the incoming damage there isn’t huge for the most part unless the dd’s stand in stupid. This would mean that if you run with experienced dd’s who avoid taking stupid damage and you can focus more on the debuff/buff side and contributing to damage too, you’d be disqualified from queueing as a healer next time.
3. Gear requirement
“Being able to queue as a healer only when equipping resto staff.” Well, if there’s Kinras in a group and sustain from master resto isn’t needed, it’s technically possible to run double destro healer because for example warden has enough class heals to cover the needs (aoe hot and multiple target burst heal) + healing orbs. Surely this requires some degree of premade to know the existence of the set, but you get the point.
4. Skill or skill line level requirement
You’d really leave out levelling healers or role-changers who are still working their way towards the needed skills or skill lines? Like, for example orb actually requires you to do dungeons to level that undaunted skill line unless you like the eternal chore of levelling that with the delve quests.
I might have forgotten some of the ideas, but I believe I’ve covered my main concerns so far.
As final note I want to say that I can’t think of any dungeon in this game where the healer would be necessary (except maybe Moongrave Fane hm) — when the participants know what they are doing. For example role lock, skill lock or gear lock would prevent premade groups using dungeon queue when doing dungeons with 3dd’s. On the other hand I’m one of those who believe that the one who picks the healer role and queues to dungeons with pug group, should always be able to play their part in that role too if necessary. Surely you can switch to more dps side if the group is competent enough, BUT you should also be able to support the ones who are still learning their role as a tank or a dd, and imho that should be the initial assumption when queueing as a healer. My suggestion therefore would be that instead of “locks” we need better reporting mechanism and actual reactions to those, like some have already suggested in this thread. This means that you could relatively easily report a player for faking their role and when enough reports from different players would come, the system would for example disable queueing from that player for a certain period of time (a week for example). And when it comes to concerns whether this would be abused to report players who just aren’t very good yet, I think it could be at least partly avoided so that the reported player’s skill bars and equipped sets would be “snapshotted” from that dungeon by ZOS (for example if the “fake” healer is still in the dungeon and in the group with the reporting player — to prevent reporting after leaving the dungeon and already potentially changing to solo gear).
More variety in group queue comps (queue both to 1T+3DD and 1T+1H+2DD queues, or even 4DD) wouldn’t hurt either but I’m not expecting that to happen in the near future.
Edit. As a side note; while being in a full healer spec I have for example encountered a PUG dd who chose not to take off their ring of the pale order because my dd friend was doing so much dmg in that dungeon that the pug dd somehow decided there was no way I was a real healer but actually a dd with a healer role.. I even told them I was wearing SPC and that they wouldn’t receive the major courage buff if they kept wearing the ring but no change (I saw from buff the group that the buff didn’t apply to them at all).. and they were mostly dead for that dungeon (vFV)… some people just don’t want to get help.
Edited by pihlaja on May 24, 2021 1:40PM3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Supertonicbaker wrote: »Now to preface, I’ve stopped pugging/pvp after burning crusade came out for WoW as I just didn’t need that kind of toxicity in my life, so take my stupid idea with a grain of salt. Although I’m sure most of you hardcore vet end gamers can possibly make it better.
Anyways, why not implement for new characters a “training” type group finder where whatever you lock in as gets a preset of skills, weapons, and armor specifically to teach that role set in, idk, the base game dungeons or something. That way, you can see what kind of skills you’ll need in your build, what kind of armor and all that. Also, it’ll have milestones to reach so you can advance to the next phase like “Tanks: Taunt enemies for X amount of time. Healers: Make sure the group doesn’t wipe X amount of times.” or whatever. And it can be set to three phases. The first phase teaches mechanics, so it’ll have “Block X amount of charged attacks.” or “Roll out of certain attacks X amount of times.” and it’ll have those floating hints and tips when something is about to go down for those not quite making it. Then the second phase teaches the more difficult mechanics “Stop boss from putting out flame.” “Stay X amount of meters close to boss and not group wipe.” etc. Then the third phase, which is a regular dungeon run without tips and help with your own skills and weapons but with the same kinds of milestones to reach in order to unlock regular group and vet mode. Ohh, and if you already know all that, there could be a min/max on the milestones so you can bypass it all and go straight to the regular group finder.
And if people still fake tank/healer, you can give them some reports and with enough they’ll have to “re-learn” it so they can stop being jerks. Idk, it might get people who normally don’t queue to start practicing with other people, learn their roles, find out which one suits them best, learn their roles, and realize that it’s a group effort as well as LEARNING THEIR ROLES.
But again, I haven’t grouped in ages so I might just be grabbing me some sort of imaginifications from a simplicitified backwood solotication player.
ESO has a lot of build and player diversity and role-locking simply has no place in it. Neither do any of the other ideas suggested here. This system existed in WoW and failed at what it did.
I have a full gold tank and I have tanked almost every Vet HM and I can tell you right now none of your ideas/suggestions belong in ESO.
When you que for a random, that is what you will get. Randoms.
That is accepted risk. The price of admission.
If this price is not acceptable, ESO offers you the option to be in several guilds at the same time so that should allow you to find people who play the way you want them to play.
ESO is not WoW. ESO does not micromanage it's players and their game experience. ESO is about players having the freedom to design the character they want in order to play the way they want.
By the same token, you have the right to refuse to play with whoever you don't want to play with.
This has worked out fine for years. I don't see a reason to change that or implement any of the Activision-mindset suggestions you and several others have highlighted in this thread.Edited by edward_frigidhands on May 24, 2021 1:07PM0 -
LettuceBrain✭✭✭LettuceBrain wrote: »I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).
really? cuz dd me and my dd buddy run a lot of the non dlc dungeons all by our lonesome. no need for a tank/healer.
Then this shouldn't even affect you. If you are completing them with two people then a queue for a 4 person group shouldn't affect you at all, right? I'm relatively new, so I don't exactly know how queueing works with just 2 people.they/them/theirs0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭LettuceBrain wrote: »FAKES DO - fakes talk about FAKES the most !
So the people in this thread like me who are actual tanks and healers are fake? Yes, that makes so much sense smh. And I understand there are a lot of bad DDs in group content (I have to save their *sses a lot), but that isn't what this thread is about.
I Play DD - but i can the same second go Tank or Heal on it.
And i will be better than 95% of Tanks / DDs / Healers of this game.
Or i can just solo a lot, if it do no work like this.
And i see the REAL problem clearly.
People do not want to do anything - but want be needed.
They do not go learn some thing - they just go on forum and make topic - how world is not fair to them.
We have 3 roles possible to put before. And it was bad change to remove that option.
Now we have one role possible with peole that can not do ANY role at all.
But they think that they do quite good - WITH ALL THIS !!!
They can take healing set + tank set + DD set with them = and if they do not like how some one do their work do it better or kick this player.
We will have companions soon for the same task.
What more do you need ?
Those who do not want to do anything will be always not happy and no need.
But people who do - are always needed.
What more do you need ?3 -
GreenHere✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LettuceBrain wrote: »LettuceBrain wrote: »I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).
really? cuz dd me and my dd buddy run a lot of the non dlc dungeons all by our lonesome. no need for a tank/healer.
Then this shouldn't even affect you. If you are completing them with two people then a queue for a 4 person group shouldn't affect you at all, right? I'm relatively new, so I don't exactly know how queueing works with just 2 people.
Even people who normally can duo / solo dungeons when they feel like it are often queueing up for the Random Daily normals, if nothing else just for the Transmute Crystals. (This will still match them with other random people, because there's no (legit) way to start random dungeons through the Group Finder with a group of less than 4.)
But those people often fail to realize that just because they are fine with bosses and whatnot running rampant with no tank to control them, or no heals/buffs/support from a healer to help them out, that doesn't automatically mean that other random strangers are cool with that. Many people seem to think, "If me and my friend don't need help, no one else should either!" a lot when they go into random normals, which is just... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Pretty often those are the people that truly fake their way through the queue. They just want their easy XP and stones. They slot no group heals, no taunts, but select those roles just to cut in line. They feel justified in doing so because they think everyone should play the way they do, it seems.
To be clear, I'm not singling out @Iarao here; I'm just talking in generalities about players who don't fulfill their role's most basic requirements because they assume all players should be fully self-sufficient for normal dungeons. Just trying to shed a little light on how these things normally go, since your post kind of asked for insight @LettuceBrain .
Also, relevant side note: Not all "fake healers/tanks" are equal. People are often using the "fake" term super loosely these days to refer to basically anyone who doesn't have a build they deem to be a "real" healer/tank, whatever that means to them. Kind of a moving goalposts sort of deal, if you ask me.
Not to get all old man-y on y'all here, but "back in my day" when we talked about fake tanks and whatnot it was folks who just straight up didn't do the job at all. No-taunt Tanks, and no-heal Healers. If a Damage Dealer slots a taunt and holds bosses still (and doesn't die doing it), then I think they're as real as anyone should need them to be for any normal dungeon. And if a Healer is healing you enough to keep you alive (except if/when you do something particularly foolish), then I don't think there's much to complain about. But we're now to the point where even people who actually do the job they signed up for are being ridiculed because they don't live up to other people's arbitrary standards, and I don't love it.
I don't mean to get all soap boxy here, but it's a salient point to keep in mind during these discussions, because people aren't always talking about the same thing when they're talking about the same thing; ya know what I mean?5 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭PullaStormy wrote: »I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.
And my suggestion to stop this is:
Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.
This is why my off tank gets WAY more playtime than my main tank. My off tank can heal AND tank even in most vet/hard content, so it really doesn't matter what we get when I que as my OT, where as my main tank needs some healer support because he's decked out in ALL support sets.0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The main issue is that zos never addresses what are the minimum requirements for all 3 roles. As long as it is not addressed, people will skip in queue.1 -
AuraStorm43✭✭✭✭✭You can do so much content in this game without a healer, i’m not really sure what the issue is2
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Iarao✭✭✭✭AuraStorm43 wrote: »You can do so much content in this game without a healer, i’m not really sure what the issue is
i agree. and as for non dlc dungeons, i prefer to run a lot of them with 4 dps. faster getting in cuz we dont have to wait for non existent tanks and healers, and faster to complete. i dont see a problem with those who must make due with what they can get. queues are so long cuz we dont have enough tanks/healers. they are the bottleneck. so improvise and git er done as long as not wiping all over the place. heck, even ran my one and only ndsa with 4 pug dps. it was a bit of a struggle, but we made it through.Edited by Iarao on May 25, 2021 2:22AM0 -
scrosedk✭✭✭ZOS need to provide a "Marked as Fake/Unwanted" function to the PUG dungeon system. Players are still free to choose whether they wanna play honestly or not. But the victims now have the option to mark the fakers. Once marked the faker will no longer show up in the PUG of the one who has marked them. Yes the faker may still be at large until he gets marked by all players but this mechanism at least ensures that one players won't fall victim of the same faker twice.
I can already see bad tanks and healers being flagged because they are not good enought.
The problem with all the ideas brought up is that they focus on a quick solution with the question "how to prevent fakers from queueing?". Nearly noone thinks about "how do these ideas impact real support players?". Many DDs dont care about support players unless they need them and even then they just want them but dont want to solve actual issues.
A week ago we had a thread about fake tanks that ended with Tanks clearly stating what the problems are from a Tank perspective, nearly no DDs participated in it.
For every DD that thinks fake support roles are bad, try to suffer through dungeons with fake DDs that barely hit the 10k DPS mark even at 500-1000 CP. But of course we cant call them fake because tehy are intentially bad, but
Well, my point is this: Everyone is free to choose however they wanna fxxk the others up, but i am also free to say STAY OUTTA MY WAY!Most people think Time is just like a river flowing in a single direction silently and unchanged, but it unveiled its totally astonishing truth to me: Time is an ocean in a raging storm...1 -
scrosedk✭✭✭I used to get really serious against faking roles, but now i just need one algorithm from ZOS to make the fakers stay out of my PUG!Most people think Time is just like a river flowing in a single direction silently and unchanged, but it unveiled its totally astonishing truth to me: Time is an ocean in a raging storm...0
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pelle412✭✭✭✭✭You're all wasting your time if getting ZoS attention is your goal. If you just want to banter back and forth about your good/bad experiences, make more threads!0 -
khyrkat✭✭✭✭Frankly, it's not ZOS that can do anything about it, as much as we would like, because I doubt they have any ideas how to fix broken group finder (and not that it has any priority, seeing how they successfully avoid this subject). There are always more dd's than support roles in every game and they will always try to shorten their queue BUT in ESO this is just enormous issue, I've never experienced so many fake roles in any MMO I played for last 20 years. But you won't change players' mentality, it's just like this. On the other hand I am tired of 99% players assuming I must be fake healer because I queued as healer, I'm tired of explaining that I am in fact dedicated healer and so I just move on doing my job.0
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pelle412✭✭✭✭✭There are always more dd's than support roles in every game and they will always try to shorten their queue BUT in ESO this is just enormous issue, I've never experienced so many fake roles in any MMO I played for last 20 years.
The reasons that this is more an issue in ESO than other MMOs are:
1. 2x DDs per dungeon instead of 3 (in WoW).
2. You can complete dungeons without a real tank or real healer. In other MMOs you need to choose a tank or healer specialization in order to really perform that role.
3. If you have a "fake tank" in another MMO, they either fall flat on the first trash pack or they generate so much threat everything naturally aggros to them, basically allowing them to do exactly what a tank should do.
4. A "fake healer" in another MMO would not really work on difficult content as the group can't heal itself to counter the incoming damage. A true healer is necessary.
EDIT: I believe the root cause of many of the "group" activity problems is the play-as-you-want design philosophy behind ESO that lets each class perform all roles.
Edited by pelle412 on June 2, 2021 2:49PM1 -
Brundhila✭✭WOW, came across this a bit late. "FAKE" healers? Sheesh! I would love to try that in a WOW M+. I love healing and I like the healing mechanics in ESO. Let me read up on these posts to catch up, I can't believe people Q as healers when they have no intention of healing!0 -
lihentian✭✭✭✭✭everything is fake... fake dd, fake tank, fake healer..
last time i run IC dungeon with fake DD, group dps around 20k, and i do around 12k as a tank... am not sure what to say.. are they fake? or just new?2 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭WOW, came across this a bit late. "FAKE" healers? Sheesh! I would love to try that in a WOW M+. I love healing and I like the healing mechanics in ESO. Let me read up on these posts to catch up, I can't believe people Q as healers when they have no intention of healing!
The reasons for this is that almost all dungeons can be completed faster without a healer. Every class has self-heals or mythic items they can use to reduce the need for a healer. This game isn't designed around needing a role as every role can for the most part perform it themselves. You do need tanks for hard content however.1 -
xv1_me✭✭✭PullaStormy wrote: »I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.
And my suggestion to stop this is:
Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.
Maybe you can slot a heal and be responsible for yourself if healers can’t heal you?1 -
Eso101rus✭✭✭✭WOW, came across this a bit late. "FAKE" healers? Sheesh! I would love to try that in a WOW M+. I love healing and I like the healing mechanics in ESO. Let me read up on these posts to catch up, I can't believe people Q as healers when they have no intention of healing!
The reasons for this is that almost all dungeons can be completed faster without a healer. Every class has self-heals or mythic items they can use to reduce the need for a healer. This game isn't designed around needing a role as every role can for the most part perform it themselves. You do need tanks for hard content however.
I’ll almost guarantee that a group with tank healer buffing and debuffing for two experiend dds will be quicker than 4 dds.0 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭PullaStormy wrote: »Then make it permanent unless you refund all your skill points, attributes and champion points.
Or, make healer only available as a role if you have restoration staff opened and equipped, as well as light armor. Same goes for tank, heavy armor and 1h + shield and/or ice staff equipped.
You don't get out much do you?
I have a stamina warden healer in PA and olorime. No light armour for me. Do I heal, buff, debuff and give resources? Yes. Do I use a restoration staff? No.
My good friend is a trial trifecta tank who tanks in medium armour (PA) with 2 ice staffs. He does everything you'd expect from a tank, with no heavy armour in sight.
Your exceedingly narrow-minded rules would disallow these perfectly good at their roles characters from joining.
Now, if you were to make a minimum dps or damage skills on bar or have a no sword and board or restoration staff on dds then you might have a point.1 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭
✭LettuceBrain wrote: »I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).
Just interested in what dps you'd require from your dds please.1 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭I’ll almost guarantee that a group with tank healer buffing and debuffing for two experiend dds will be quicker than 4 dds.
Tank + 3DD is faster than Tank + Heal + 2DD. I wish it wasn't, but it really is if the DDs know what they are doing. If they don't, then yes a healer will make it smoother. This is due to ESO's class design.
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josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are always more dd's than support roles in every game and they will always try to shorten their queue BUT in ESO this is just enormous issue, I've never experienced so many fake roles in any MMO I played for last 20 years.
The reasons that this is more an issue in ESO than other MMOs are:
1. 2x DDs per dungeon instead of 3 (in WoW).
2. You can complete dungeons without a real tank or real healer. In other MMOs you need to choose a tank or healer specialization in order to really perform that role.
3. If you have a "fake tank" in another MMO, they either fall flat on the first trash pack or they generate so much threat everything naturally aggros to them, basically allowing them to do exactly what a tank should do.
4. A "fake healer" in another MMO would not really work on difficult content as the group can't heal itself to counter the incoming damage. A true healer is necessary.
EDIT: I believe the root cause of many of the "group" activity problems is the play-as-you-want design philosophy behind ESO that lets each class perform all roles.
No, the problem is NOT play-as-you-want. The problem is people's unrealistic expectations of random group members. For example...I play as a tank almost exclusively, so I never run into a situation I have to deal with a "fake" tank. I like to pug dungeons...I enjoy doing so...but I am realistic in my expectations. I do NOT expect the damage to be good, I do NOT expect the heals to be good in random groups. The cause of bad heals/DPS/tanking is irrelevant, whether someone is skipping the queue, or just plain bad at their role DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is that I signed up for a completely RANDOM group. Sometimes I will get a group where everyone performs their role as listed and I can concentrate on tanking without worrying about anything else...but more often I will get a group with sub-par DPS, occasionally I will get a group without any heals...none of this matters because I simply ADAPT to whatever random group I get. I have a dozen different set/skill setups available to me for any situation I may find myself in. If the group DPS is below a certain threshold, I simply move toward an off-tank setup instead that allows me to do more damage, bolstering the DPS by simply doing more myself(there is a certain threshold that group buffs does more damage than individual off-tank damage, usually around 50k group damage...its a matter of knowing when one is more advantageous than the other.
Alternatively, if I find myself in a group without a healer I equip tank specific off-healer gear and skills instead(generally something like Battalion Defender and Redistributor with a resto staff on the back bar). This allows me to keep the group healed and/or shielded...not as well as a real healer of course, but again it bolsters a weak area of the group.
So your belief that one class being able to perform any role is actually the exact OPPOSITE of the truth...its a strength when you have someone willing to adapt to the group they find themselves in. Yes, I understand, you chose DPS because you wanted to deal damage, not tank or heal...but being able to perform multiple roles at the same time only makes you a better player and allows you to successfully complete any dungeon you may find yourself in. It doesn't matter if its normal, vet, or vet DLC dungeons, there are VERY few times I am not able to complete a random pug as long as I have the flexibility to adapt to whatever random group I find myself in. Swapping between these setups is as simple as pushing a button as long as you have an add on like dressing room. The only consideration to do this successfully is that you NEVER put any character stat points into health, always choosing stam or magicka...health should only be adjusted with sets and enchantments. Magicka builds might have a harder time effectively tanking though with all their points in magicka unless they use an ice-staff to do so.
Unrealistic expectations of other people is the problem. Not anything else.0
This discussion has been closed.