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Remove the damage taken penalty from light armor
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rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭But to be competitive in PvP you don't want a spread of attributes, you want a handful in HP and the rest in magicka. Your armour pieces with a few max mag glyphs and infused gives lashings of MP and definitely enough to run shields. If you think otherwise, what class are you playing as?
Also, light armour literally does make you more nimble. The light armour passives reduce your sprint costs and the effectiveness of snares.
Anyway, for your numbered points:
1) light armour passive
2)light armour passive + Lover mundus
3) light armour passive + shadow or Thief mundus
So light armour is literally catering to every one of your build demands.
I'll say again because you conveniently skipped the crucial bit: light and heavy have been recalibrated around medium as the control position. The alternative to light and heavy handicaps is to boost medium damage output. But doing that would make for OBSCENE min-max damage gank builds that would cause much more outrage than the existing penalties.
The new armour system is really good. If people complain and make them change it, they will end up with something far worse.
Edited by rbfrgsp on May 27, 2021 5:40PM2 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭The new armor system would be better if there were any actual choice in determining best weight for your build. But, as it currently stands, specs focused on more Magicka have next to no use for Medium and specs focused on Stamina have next to no use for Light, due to the armor weights continuing to provide benefits exclusive to each stat.
The solution is actually quite simple, and builds off of changes ZOS themselves made a few patches ago when updating 2H and DW passives. Light Armor passives should be changed to provide Offensive Penetration and Critical Chance and Medium Armor passives changed to provide Weapon&Spell Damage and Critical Chance, effectively hybridizing offensive benefits of each weight. That way, Armor choice becomes more about the trade-offs of each type and less about whether the player allocates more points into Magicka or Stamina.Edited by ealdwin on May 27, 2021 7:50PM11 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭The new armor system would be better if there were any actual choice in determining best weight for your build. But, as it currently stands, specs focused on more Magicka have next to no use for Medium and specs focused on Stamina have next to no use for Light, due to the armor weights continuing to provide benefits exclusive to each stat.
The solution is actually quite simple, and builds off of changes ZOS themselves made a few patches ago when updating 2H and DW passives. Light Armor passives should be changed to provide Offensive Penetration and Critical Chance and Medium Armor passives changed to provide Weapon&Spell Damage and Critical Chance, effectively hybridizing offensive benefits of each weight. That way, Armor choice becomes more about the trade-offs of each type and less about whether the player allocates more points into Magicka or Stamina.
What about the idea of giving Light Crit Damage instead of Crit Chance? Is that still a valid idea with the recent global changes to these things?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anyhow, I think to summarize this topic:
I think most agree the changes to armor passives were overall a success and have been a positive improvement.
The question is whether these Damage Taken penalties are necessary given the additional Weapon/Spell Damage, the addition of new Status Effects - one of which gives Minor Breach, etc. Burst is so high right now, are these penalties good for gameplay?
Certainly, I'd rather keep these penalties than go back to the old way, I think most will agree on that.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.3 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.21 -
RedFireDisco✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield2 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.16 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭
What a clunky demagogyUrzigurumash wrote: »I think most agree the changes to armor passives were overall a success and have been a positive improvement.
What is "long range advantage" in a game where charges have no cooldown and any stamina user can use a bow that has longer range ? Also form their kit mPlars, mNB and mDK are MELEE and even paywall classes vastly outclassed by their stamina counterpartsmaster_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Edited by Andre_Noir on May 28, 2021 8:40AM14 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
"bow / bow"?
Do you seriously think "bow / bow" is strong?
"bow / bow" is pretty weak.4 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
You should try it.
You can't understand how weak it is until you actually use it.2 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭master_vanargand wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
"bow / bow"?
Do you seriously think "bow / bow" is strong?
"bow / bow" is pretty weak.
My point has nothing to do with strength. My point is that mag vs stam or LA vs MA have absolutely nothing to do with ranged vs melee.
"LA has poor mitigation because mag is ranged" is just wrong. Stam/MA has plenty of ranged options, and some mag/LA classes are almost entirely melee.
The argument about damage shields isn't much better. Everyone has defensive skills and Annulment isn't all that much better than Vigor, for example (not to mention that LA's poor mitigation actually makes damage shields less effective than their tooltips would imply to someone used to MA or HA mitigation levels).11 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭master_vanargand wrote: »RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
You should try it.
You can't understand how weak it is until you actually use it.
They both scale on health. I've already used and still use them in pvp.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.7 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.
Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.
But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely
Wearing medium gives you all that plus speed.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.19 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »The argument about damage shields isn't much better. Everyone has defensive skills and Annulment isn't all that much better than Vigor, for example (not to mention that LA's poor mitigation actually makes damage shields less effective than their tooltips would imply to someone used to MA or HA mitigation levels).
I think that bit is the key. For the first time, different armour weight classes "feel" different to play. If you are used to ignoring incoming attacks because you've been running heavy for a while, then you are going to getting creamed trying the same tactics in medium or light now.
In CP PvP, armour is really well balanced. I play less no-cp so couldn't say for sure if it's the same. But nowadays a large portion of the tankiest players in zone are light armour players - because they have mastered their shield tactics properly.2 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭In CP PvP, armour is really well balanced. I play less no-cp so couldn't say for sure if it's the same.
I read, sorry, the BS many times. Can you explain me how armor passives made game better if we got:
1. Nerfs for heavy and light armor
2. Buff for medium armor
About shield tactic is just... I don't know what even to say because shields remain the same as before but overall incoming damage became higherEdited by Andre_Noir on May 28, 2021 6:51PM11 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭I already explained it twice so let me explain it a third time as you keep skipping the important bit:
Before the updated rules, medium armour was massively underperforming.
It was underperforming because ESO is a game that naturally rewards, encourages and requires min-maxing yourself into a specialist niche.
Medium armour was a middle ground option and therefore was underpowered.
The devs had two options open to them to rebalance the underperforming armour type:
(1) reduce effectiveness of other armour sets,
OR
(2) boost effectiveness of medium.
They went for option one and here is why they were correct to do so:
If you boost medium armour damage output to make it stronger and therefore more competitive, you open the door to specialist min-maxed damage builds.
Think what that means: all the damage mitigation and durability that heavy armour turtle tanks have, but repurposed as damage output, not defense. All pointing at a single target, with a single action or burst combo.
You can deal with perma-healing turtle tanks by smacking them 20v1 or just walking away. But with min-maxed full damage output? Everything dies in 1-2 hits and it's no game at all.
Short version: You do not want armour balanced around all-beneficial passive ability because the inevitable outcome of that will make you enjoy the game less.Edited by rbfrgsp on May 28, 2021 9:35PM0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Andre_Noir wrote: »
What a clunky demagogyUrzigurumash wrote: »I think most agree the changes to armor passives were overall a success and have been a positive improvement.
What is "long range advantage" in a game where charges have no cooldown and any stamina user can use a bow that has longer range ? Also form their kit mPlars, mNB and mDK are MELEE and even paywall classes vastly outclassed by their stamina counterpartsmaster_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
To continue on the Min-Max theme as described in the post above:
In my view, theoretically , one of the underlying methods of balance between Mag and Stam is that all Mag specs can achieve maximal offensive output within the spec's allocated Power Budget with Destro and Destro alone, whereas for Stam specs to maximize offensive output within the spec's allocated Power Budget, they must choose between DW, 2h, or Bow. Specifically as this regards Ranged Damage - when equipping a Bow, a Stam player goes without the strongest passive damage boosts to non-Weapon skills, being the Mace/Sword/Axe passives on 2h and DW, whereas for Destro, theoretically, no such choice has to be made - Weapon, non-Weapon, ranged, melee - all Mag users "are supposed to" achieve the best results with only Destro, whereas Stam classes "should" have to choose between 1 of the 3 Weapon types for to maximize the offensive output of their build for their playstyle. It doesn't quite work out this way, hence the quoted subjunctives, because some Mag specs find greater offensive output by equipping DW or 2h if they don't rely on Weapon Skills and can go without Heavy Attack resource restoration (on the other hand, the applications for Destro on Stam toons are almost non-existent). This is about Weapon passives and skills and not Armor passives, but probably the Armor passives are balanced in light of Weapon passives and skills. On this matter, again I think a buff to Destro skills is worth a look before another revision to Armor passives is considered, to reinforce this advantage Mag has in the "compactness" of Destro compared to Stam weapons.
As for the Armor passives Andre, when I said the change was largely seen as a positive improvement: I think it's a safe assumption most players are happy to be free of the 5-item bonus paradigm. Sure, this perspective puts "δῆμος" as the "ἀγωγός", as you say, but most people I've talked to in-game really like this change. In the past it worked out for most specs that the strongest choices were either 5 Heavy, or 5 Light, since for the most part 5 Medium was only optimal for a mostly Bow oriented Stam spec. In other words, a large number of players were compelled to wear 5 Heavy because 5 Medium or 5 Light was too squishy for their playstyle, even if they didn't really want to be in 5 Heavy, and so this perpetuated the "tank meta" probably more than anything. I'm pretty sure the number of people running 5 Heavy has been drastically reduced - yet it still remains the best choice for most players who want to play a purely defensive spec. That's a success, and that was maybe the main goal of this Armor passive revision.
So, let's say we get rid of the Damage Taken penalties, and get rid of some of the defensive passives for Medium - either the AoE mitigation or the Block Cost reduction. Do you think the state of armor balance would be better than it was during the 5 item paradigm?
That's my read of things, could be a bad one.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Zekka✭✭✭✭I didn't want to answer to the sheer amount of stupidity I've read because I've lost hope for this game but at this point it's too funny.
Based on who? The couple forumblades here who literally refuse to spec for even a little bit of defense? There were plenty of people who played medium before the armor changes, and on classes that don't have the crutch known as shadowy disguise, they would just get the tankiness they lost by forgoing heavy with a combination of running nord + allocating some points into health + a defensive set.Before the updated rules, medium armour was massively underperforming.
It was underperforming because ESO is a game that naturally rewards, encourages and requires min-maxing yourself into a specialist niche.
Medium armour was a middle ground option and therefore was underpowered.
The problem of medium armor was never its passives, it was the medium sets themselves: for some reason ZOS decided to make almost all the best weapon damage sets heavy.
You keep going on about shields, stacking magicka (something light armor doesn't encourage like medium does with weapon damage) and shieldstacking, something only one class can do (surprise it's the only class still running them) when shields have been basically dead for any class that isn't magsorc since their changes.
I haven't seen one decent magicka player that isn't a magsorc cast Annulment in years and there is a reason why, a lot of magblades used to run Dampen now they're all in heavy playing with dark cloak, zaan, vateshran and malacath, and for magplars and magdks things are even worse, the other light armor malus completely ruins the way they recover in PvP: blockcasting their heals. So stop bringing Annulment as the reason why light armor should make sure you eat 12k spectral bows and 10k leaps.
I wanted to ask which platform you play on because I know consoles are usually one meta or two late but at this point I have to ask, which patch you play on? Morrowind?18 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭I can't really tell if you're asking any actual questions there- are you asking for the names of players who are successfully using light armour? There are plenty. Yes, sorcs and wardens would likely dominate that list, but that's because sorcs and wardens are dominating everything right now.
If you would like to engage with any of the gameplay or ruleset comments I made then go ahead. If you have a way to balance medium to the other armour classes that allows additive rather than subtractive equalisation, and which you do not believe would lead to disgusting gank-enablement for anyone running medium then kindly share it with the group.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem of medium armor was never its passives, it was the medium sets themselves: for some reason ZOS decided to make almost all the best weapon damage sets heavy.
Well, we could construe this as evidence Medium's passives were underpowered. Medium has the Weapon Damage bonus, so one of the drawbacks to Fury / 7th / Veiled Heritance / Ravager was that you had less access to this Bonus by equipping these sets. You still had access to it, but less than if they had been Medium sets. If most people didn't find the loss of access to this Weapon Damage bonus in 5 Medium to be as consequential as the loss of defensive power in 5 Heavy, than Medium's passives were underpowered, no? In other words, a setup with just one of those sets in Jewels plus a Medium set should've been more popular than 2 of those sets, which for the most part, I don't think it was, because many people thought 5 Heavy was better than 5 Medium anyhow.
Anecdotal, but as it is on live by far my favorite Weapon Damage 5 piece sets are Medium sets, all of which however are new or buffed within the last couple years.
Edited by Urzigurumash on May 28, 2021 11:10PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
RedFireDisco✭✭✭✭RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
Which scale from health NOT stamina
Big difference
So NO stamina based shield2 -
Ryuvain✭✭✭✭✭
✭RedFireDisco wrote: »RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
Which scale from health NOT stamina
Big difference
So NO stamina based shield
They still use stamina, and health based is even easier to use. There's also brawler which actually scales off stam, but it's also spammable.That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.7 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭master_vanargand wrote: »RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
You should try it.
You can't understand how weak it is until you actually use it.
They both scale on health. I've already used and still use them in pvp.
Effective use of Bone Shield requires a fairly high health.
At least 30000 health is not enough.
That's the difference between Bone shield and Magicka Shield.
Tank? Yeah, sure. So what?1 -
RedFireDisco✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »It's made it very difficult for my magDK to survive since wearing light is basically giving my enemies bonus damage against me. With all my buffs to resistances I have around 15k physical resistance. I'm basically a little less than an NPC and anyone running a basic stam DPS toon will probably over pen against me, which means basically wearing nothing and have bonus damage being applied against me.
Been forcing me in PVP to heal like crazy, run stage 3 vampire or higher, use mistform, and hold block and spam heals when a stam player decides I need to die. The bonus damage is rediculous at times, and I'm too stubborn to change out my gear since magDKs already have enough problems as it is with sustain.
But this means it is working as intended.
You cannot have all 3-- damage, sustain, and defense. You have to choose, and choose wisely
Wearing medium gives you all that plus speed.RedFireDisco wrote: »RedFireDisco wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »master_vanargand wrote: »Don't ignore Magicka build's long range attack advantage.
Remember that Magicka build have a very powerful Shield skill.
Don't try to be immortal.
All players should die in PvP.
Tell me more about this range advantage my magDK has over a bow/bow stamBlade.
To be fair, only now have this as opposed to all staff users
...and no Stam shield
Bone shield. Sword and board shield.
Which scale from health NOT stamina
Big difference
So NO stamina based shield
They still use stamina, and health based is even easier to use. There's also brawler which actually scales off stam, but it's also spammable.
Yeah, as magicka based shield that costs magicka is VERY different to a health-based shield that costs stam.
Magicka user can ALSO use bone shield if that's the argument because "easier to use".
Seem ingenuous.
Brawler is a garbage 2k shield in Cyro1 -
KingExecration✭✭✭✭Since when is there arguments that annulment is op and why light armor needs increased damage taken?
Those defending the light armor damage taken has either never played a mag build in light, hasn’t used harness on anything except a sorc, is a stam main, or has mag sorc trauma. If you think it’s balanced try mag for yourselves with and without dampen or whatever you fancy. Waste of skill points on my plar because the shield is terrible in cyro with the stamblade outbreak.
My mag plar/dk/blade suffers for running light. While my stam sorc and stam cro can run over anyone never punished for playing bad. Notice you don’t see very many mag builds succeed this patch out of ball groups?13 -
Suna_Ye_Sunnabe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There's a reason why pvp is overrun with stam builds. If you're denying that, then I don't know what to tell you... It was already very lopsided last patch, and now it's just bitterly hilarious. Zos' answer to it was making it even worse.Angua Anyammis Ae Sunna11 -
RedFireDisco✭✭✭✭The fact of the matter is, light armor should not have the lowest rating and take an extra damage penalty
11 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭RedFireDisco wrote: »The fact of the matter is, light armor should not have the lowest rating and take an extra damage penalty
But why?
Light armour and Medium armour are both designed as DPS options - one for magicka and one for stamina. They have equivalent sustain bonuses and very similar damage bonuses, with maybe LA penetration passive being slightly stronger for pure damage depending on context.
So given they are equal on sustain and reasonably close on damage, why would Light have to be much lower mitigation than Medium?
In my opinion, it is a incorrect analysis to look at the three armor's as a sliding scale of damage/vs mitigation as others have presented in this thread ie: LA being high damage & low mitigation, HA being high mitigation & low damage and MA being a middle ground.
MA is not a middle ground - rather MA and LA are both equivalent damage options, its just one is for stamina and one is for magicka. A player doesn't get to "choose" if they want to wear LA vs MA, that choice is made for them by their build type of magicka or stamina. Its always only ever LA vs HA and MA vs HA, depending on resource focus.
Here's another way of looking at it via a though experiment:
Let's say that ZOS fully hybridised all of the bonuses on light and medium armour (regen, cost reduction, crit, pen, damage) so both could be used by either stamina or magicka. And that they also allowed sets weight to be changed so that all sets would be available in any weights.
In this scenario, which armour type would you choose? For a mag char? For a stam?
I'm pretty sure most of my mag characters would switch straight across to medium in this case.
Now, with that said, this doesn't mean I am against LA having lower mitigation. But if that is the case, it needs some other benefit to counteract it. It can't be damage as that is reasonably balanced against medium (and needs to be for PvE), as is sustain.7 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Light armor penalties could be justified if medium armor had no extra bonuses. If they must tp put something for the sake of thematic proposes, the sprint and sneak can probably stay. But the other bonuses should be gone. Block cost reduction for medium on top of dodge roll reduction? Why? More AOE defense on top of shuffle(probably the best armor skill) and more speed, really?
On PTS Stamina toons ignores Heavy armor completely now, 2 pieces must.3