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ZeniMax Online should do better work with lore, timeline and continuity questions

  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    Aertew wrote: »
    Not gonna read the whole thing but darien had his conclusion in summerset.

    Also they refer to you as souless because in coldharbour u get your soul taken.

    But that only makes sense if you played the coldharbour introduction - they call you souless regardless of if you did that. That's part of the problem.
    Lore doesn't really the victim here. Character arcs are. Because if one changed for good in the chapter or dlc it will make little sense for them to roll back in their development if you go to base game after chapter/season.
    Also just good storytelling.

    Why not try this solution for base game zones:
    let all players go to any zone, with access to all side quests, but if they want to do the "Mainline Quests" which give skill points, then the player has to do the storylines in order and proceeding.

    So for example Ebonheart Pact:
    Deshaan has various sidequests, but I don't have access to the zone's Main Story because I haven't done the zone main story in Stonefalls, or possibly even Bal Foyen & Bleakrock.
    If I want to progress in the Coldharbour Main Story then I have to make progress in the storyline of ONE of the Alliances, this way you can play with your friends AND it encourages you to play the game.

    Players SHOULD have to play through their alliance before they can get to Coldharbour - let alone Fight Molag Bal

    This still allows player freedom but also enforces linear storytelling in some respect

    Also how they rush the Main Story just shows what they think of Main Story Bosses, which is trivial easy mode "just get it over with attitude". You cannot expect players to get invested, excited, or even care about your story if you don't care yourselves.
  • Treshcore
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    ESO takes place in the Interregnum. Prior to this game, this lore was that this period was basically remembered as a time of chaos, wars, and many pretenders to the Imperial Throne. Keep in mind that there are 200+ years between ESO and the next era of peace and stability for Nirn when Tiber Septim becomes the next Dragonborn Emperor. Then add on 400 or so years before the Third Era TES games, and 200 more years before Skyrim.

    That's a lot of chaos and war, in which the Three Banners War is ultimately inconsequential, no matter how important it seems to us right now. Nor does Tiber Septim particularly care about making sure that history records our exploits 200+ years later. He wants to make himself look good, as the Emperor who restored the peace. Rather than being erased from the timeline, it's more like our events weren't well-recorded. This is pretty normal for Tamriel historical records, judging by other games, and particularly where Heroes are involved. The Nerevarine hardly gets a mention 200 years later in Skyrim, and they might even be still alive.

    As for the other folks who should remember the specifics like the Daedra, the Tribunal, the Psijics, or the College of Sapiarchs...well, my personal explanation is that most of them are pretty embarrassed that they got beat by or needed the help of the Vestige, and so they don't preserve our history for the general public.

    The lack of recordings about Three Banners War can simply be explained that our character ignores them. Third Era began to finish all this chaos, to make it outdated, unimportant.
    Especially when we're talking about Three Banners War. You know, all of the alliances' leaders are not a**holes, but history doesn't really like good people... At least if they're not between other a**holes. Joruun the Skald-King, Queen Ayrenn, High King Emeric - all of them are decent, charismatic people who don't pursue such things like racial segregation, vengeance and other ugly things. They want to create their own Empire on the whole Tamriel, unite it. Of course no one will care about them!

    Sadly, these political theories still have nothing to do with the game's broken continuity. Three Banners War is just a reason to make Cyrodiil a PvP zone, nothing more.
    Even though TESO is a great game, it suffers from continuity issues that may hurt narrative experience and confuse lore-caring players. If we want TESO to be a decent exemplar in The Elder Scrolls series, these problems need to be fixed. Please, acknowledge with this information more in this thread. Thank you.
  • VaranisArano
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    Treshcore wrote: »

    ESO takes place in the Interregnum. Prior to this game, this lore was that this period was basically remembered as a time of chaos, wars, and many pretenders to the Imperial Throne. Keep in mind that there are 200+ years between ESO and the next era of peace and stability for Nirn when Tiber Septim becomes the next Dragonborn Emperor. Then add on 400 or so years before the Third Era TES games, and 200 more years before Skyrim.

    That's a lot of chaos and war, in which the Three Banners War is ultimately inconsequential, no matter how important it seems to us right now. Nor does Tiber Septim particularly care about making sure that history records our exploits 200+ years later. He wants to make himself look good, as the Emperor who restored the peace. Rather than being erased from the timeline, it's more like our events weren't well-recorded. This is pretty normal for Tamriel historical records, judging by other games, and particularly where Heroes are involved. The Nerevarine hardly gets a mention 200 years later in Skyrim, and they might even be still alive.

    As for the other folks who should remember the specifics like the Daedra, the Tribunal, the Psijics, or the College of Sapiarchs...well, my personal explanation is that most of them are pretty embarrassed that they got beat by or needed the help of the Vestige, and so they don't preserve our history for the general public.

    The lack of recordings about Three Banners War can simply be explained that our character ignores them. Third Era began to finish all this chaos, to make it outdated, unimportant.
    Especially when we're talking about Three Banners War. You know, all of the alliances' leaders are not a**holes, but history doesn't really like good people... At least if they're not between other a**holes. Joruun the Skald-King, Queen Ayrenn, High King Emeric - all of them are decent, charismatic people who don't pursue such things like racial segregation, vengeance and other ugly things. They want to create their own Empire on the whole Tamriel, unite it. Of course no one will care about them!

    Sadly, these political theories still have nothing to do with the game's broken continuity. Three Banners War is just a reason to make Cyrodiil a PvP zone, nothing more.

    My point was more that there's nothing nefarious about there not being a set winner to the war, because in the grand scheme of Tamriel, it just doesn't matter. There won't be a legitimate ruler on the Ruby Thone until Tiber Septim, something the lore and the Imperial City questline make clear.

    As odd as it seems that stuff like the Ebonheart Pact becomes unimportant in light of future events, the restablishment of an Empire in charge of most of the currently independent nations really is a sea change in Tamrielic politics that handily explains why we don't hear about the 2nd Era in any great detail. The last thing Tiber Septim or later Septims want is the Bretons reminiscing about that time they nearly wound up running the Empire, or the Altmer scheming to put an elf on the Ruby Throne.
  • JoDiMageio
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    Oh Gods, please please please stop with the Dragon Break explanation! It's boring and old, and it's already been used in another game.

    I will agree that a new player is not given a lot of clues as to how and where to start if they want to start from scratch and follow the timeline, and I will agree that there could be some feature in the game, as simple as including it in a journal or something, that the player could look up in order to know where they should be going.

    I will also agree that having the same characters come back, especially characters like Lyris or Sai who have no reason to be there in some cases depending on choices made, and without a good reason for their return, is problematic, and for that I would appreciate a clearer explanation.

    That being said...

    - It's not hard to go online and find the information you need to follow the chronological order of the game. Yes, perhaps we could argue that players shouldn't have to do that, but once they figure out the confusion, it literally takes 5 minutes to find the info you need.

    - Some players might not want to start directly from the exact moment something happens to them, even if this is traditionally TES style. They might want to already be a mage who is a member of the Mages Guild, or a thief who then becomes a hero, or whatever other storyline they want in their head for their character.

    - Lore is not cemented and immovable, and people should be given the freedom to have some kind of personal creativity in how they play the game. I mentioned this in your previous post on the topic, it doesn't seem right to force people into one way of playing, or one way to see and comprehend the game. You want to see it as a Dragon Break? Your choice. I don't want to understand the world that way? Should be my choice, too. There are many ways one could use the lore to explain the occurrences. Imposing only one view of lore on others seems very problematic to me, especially since your posts OP give me the impression that you have a certain view and would like it to be confirmed or not. Why not just take your view and live with it, and let others develop their own views? Many people are knowledgeable about lore, and can easily disagree on it, so there is no 100% correct answer to things.

    Did you ever consider that there is a reason why there is no explanation given to us? From being able to create new content each year, to allowing freedom to integrate the Three Banners War into subsequent titles, the devs might not want to pigeonhole themselves into a final version of what is occurring at the moment.
  • Treshcore
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    @ealdwin, it's a very interesting text you've made. In the most points, I agree with you. It's very good that people here explain what Dragon Break actually is and why it's not really fit the situation here.

    However, it doesn't mean that Dragon Break is the ONLY metaphysical thing that may confuse the timeline. Or it doesn't mean that Dragon Break is made only for changing some things: DB is always a confusion, but we don't know where this confusion will lead us in the future - maybe even nowhere.

    I think that Dragon Break's nature can't be understood in only one way. If only ZOS representatives took back their words about TESO being set not in Dragon Break, it would've opened the way for many interpretations and headcanons.
    Yes, it can start new hot discussions about lore, but these discussions will be more belonging to Lore sub-forum rather that this thread which only showcases this huge problem. I don't like this decision and I've already contacted a person who moved this post and, after it, TESO support. I think that more people should know about this problem so it will increase the possibility of ZOS actually answering to it. By now, well... Forum rules kind of prohibit criticizing admin's decisions publicly, but what else can be done, when lore community is ignored so much?
    Edited by Treshcore on May 18, 2021 9:57PM
    Even though TESO is a great game, it suffers from continuity issues that may hurt narrative experience and confuse lore-caring players. If we want TESO to be a decent exemplar in The Elder Scrolls series, these problems need to be fixed. Please, acknowledge with this information more in this thread. Thank you.
  • Olauron
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    You can read a book in any order of the pages or the chapters. You can watch a movie in any order of the scenes. That doesn't mean that there is no timeline and no continuity in the book or in the movie. It is just your choice as a story consumer to consume it in your own order.

    ESO is the same. There is a timeline. There is a continuity. There are quests that happen before and quests that happen after. It is a choice of a player to follow the order or to consume the story in another way.
    The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
  • psychotrip
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    Most hilarious example of this is on Auridon, where an Altmer npc says that summoning daedra is a death sentence, even atronachs, despite this contradicting all previous lore on the Altmer (who literally wrote books on oblivion and daedra summoning) and the fact that my character was an Altmer sorcerer with a winged twilight following him around.

    The lore is just a mess sometimes.
    Edited by psychotrip on May 27, 2021 12:34PM
    No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

    We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.
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