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Fake healers and a suggestion to stop them

  • mustangmorgan31
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    People actually need healers in dungeons? really?
  • Kidgangster101
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Just make tanks and healers as fun to play as a dd. Then the dungeon queues issues will solve themselves.

    Tanks and healers qol keeps getting gutted, so there is no wonder there is a shortage.

    Not true. Tanks and healers hate pugs because dps 7/10 is bad and doesn't hold their own weight. So what happens? Tanks/healers tend to only tank for their guild.......

    Nothing to do with being gutted, heck I can tank most things without even the need of a healer so that means I have too much survivability and should be gutted more. Or make the adds hit harder (not one shot mechanics though. Make it that a healer needs to actually heal)
  • INe_Saninus
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    zvavi wrote: »
    Then make it permanent unless you refund all your skill points, attributes and champion points. :) Or, make healer only available as a role if you have restoration staff opened and equipped, as well as light armor. Same goes for tank, heavy armor and 1h + shield and/or ice staff equipped. :)

    Add a 30k dps check to dds and we have a deal

    Oh...! So we just not running dungeons anymore. Okay. Smh.
  • svendf
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    Xebov wrote: »
    I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.

    And my suggestion to stop this is:

    Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.

    Just to get you right, iam a tank and your solution to your healer problem is that i should be locked into tank for all eternaty without the ability to run something as a DD from time to time? I guess you notice yourself how bad an idea that is.

    This is the 3rd thread within a week suggesting a "solution" against a faker problem that would result in negative impact for actual support players. Just like the other ppl before you didnt spend not a second thinking about the impact it has.

    I got three tanks, three dd´s and three healers. Point ! I used my nine slots. How many dd´s healers do you have.

    I can´t say I agree 100% to OP`s suggestion, but something have to be done. In my book official tool like group finder should be a safe heaven. Everything else like gear, roles and whatever belong in a preformed group via zone or guild chat, where everthing should be allowed.
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    You probably know that even the most difficult dungeons can be completed without a healer. Finder is used by many people to get 600 wpd / spd and experience / geode. By introducing any restrictions on the role, you will strike at experienced players who can play without a healer.

    ?? um no
  • svendf
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    My suggestion to counter fake healers in PUG dungeons:

    Slot a self heal.

    Most dd´s have a self heal onboard, which isn´t a problem, good to in a "uuuups" situation. The problem starss, when fake roles startss carry low end dd´s not learning to stand on their own feet and build for their role.

    Playing with a healer and tank they need to or at least stand on their own feet instead of spaming heals like there is no tomorrow.
  • Iccotak
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Just make tanks and healers as fun to play as a dd. Then the dungeon queues issues will solve themselves.

    Tanks and healers qol keeps getting gutted, so there is no wonder there is a shortage.

    Bingo - solve that and you solve the issue of the vacuum of support players in dungeon random queue because more people would play it.

    course this goes back to the issue of why you would ever need to play a tank or healer in content outside of group requirement.
  • Iccotak
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    svendf wrote: »
    thorwyn wrote: »
    My suggestion to counter fake healers in PUG dungeons:

    Slot a self heal.

    Most dd´s have a self heal onboard, which isn´t a problem, good to in a "uuuups" situation. The problem starss, when fake roles startss carry low end dd´s not learning to stand on their own feet and build for their role.

    Playing with a healer and tank they need to or at least stand on their own feet instead of spaming heals like there is no tomorrow.

    at that point the only reasonable solution ( which would add to the wait time btw if that is something you are willing to sacrifice ) is to only group people of similar level. To reduce the amount of carrying or overpowered players queuing as tank and just rushing everything.

    So a level 50 player would never be paired with a level 20 player in the random queue. However that would add to the wait time in the queue BUT it might also get people to learn the roles and maybe even try on the healer and tank roles.

  • Lady_Galadhiel
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    Yep,they could add a queue like in Battlegrounds,under lvl 50 and cp players separate.
    Or if you have a premade group already made then you should be able to queue also,even when being non cp and cp players mixed.At least in PVE it would be a nice option.
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  • NeillMcAttack
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    I have been in groups where our success depended on me being able to change my role. Sure it still says I am a tank or healer, but without me dealing damage we may not have passed the encounters.

    People need to stop complaining about these trivial issues. If you want to succeed in PUGs, focus on yourself. Are you flexible enough to offer the group what it lacks? Is your place in the group really more valuable than that fake tank or healer? I have seen that often it is not.
    Fact is, it's experienced players that are more likely to fake role into PUGs, and I would wager that this leads to far more successful runs than failures.
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  • svendf
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    svendf wrote: »
    thorwyn wrote: »
    My suggestion to counter fake healers in PUG dungeons:

    Slot a self heal.

    Most dd´s have a self heal onboard, which isn´t a problem, good to in a "uuuups" situation. The problem starss, when fake roles startss carry low end dd´s not learning to stand on their own feet and build for their role.

    Playing with a healer and tank they need to or at least stand on their own feet instead of spaming heals like there is no tomorrow.

    at that point the only reasonable solution ( which would add to the wait time btw if that is something you are willing to sacrifice ) is to only group people of similar level. To reduce the amount of carrying or overpowered players queuing as tank and just rushing everything.

    So a level 50 player would never be paired with a level 20 player in the random queue. However that would add to the wait time in the queue BUT it might also get people to learn the roles and maybe even try on the healer and tank roles.

    One baby step at the time. First thing to do is lock the tank and healer role in group finder, but issues can arise regarding low level tanks I admit, not that it can´t besolved.

    I se the long q time regarding dd´s. That´s why I gave birth to three tanks and three healer´s. I can´t say it have been boring - it have actually been fun until I saw how some player´s treat tanks (of cause that depend on level of content)..

    I do agree with those, who say some in the community is part of the problem and they could need a helping hand and some rules to go by. If they don´t like the rules they can form in guild or zone chat.

    Right now fake healers and tanks (dd´s doing fake roles) are in my book "some" of the reasons behind low dps level and even higher level don´t feel they have to be an acces to the group on the dps side as they can just tug along.

    All these posts are rised because there it´s a big problem and the closer these dd´s gets to endgame the harder it will get for all involved - not in all cases, but in alot of cases.

    A good game is also a healthy game :)
    Edited by svendf on May 23, 2021 4:55PM
  • LettuceBrain
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    iksde wrote: »
    I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

    healing doesnt need to have effective HPS, for most it is enough to keep single HoT skill with occasionally burst heal when its really bad or just that moment for this, healer is more usefull with addiing buffs to group and debuffs to enemies than overhealing 24/7

    for holding agro it is also no problem whiel having slotted jsut inner rage from undaunted avaible for everyone with every weapon

    and it amuses me how DD role was not mentioned here to also have test for its DPS to show it is actually DD, not an healer or tank doing 5k-10k dps on fake DD role just for fun or trolls

    The reason I did not mention a DD test was because the problem mentioned in the thread is specifically about healers and tanks. I don't have any malicious intent towards the DD role here.

    Edit: typo
    Edited by LettuceBrain on May 23, 2021 4:56PM
    they/them/theirs
  • thorwyn
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    Most dd´s have a self heal onboard, which isn´t a problem, good to in a "uuuups" situation. The problem starss, when fake roles startss carry low end dd´s not learning to stand on their own feet and build for their role.

    Inexperienced players don't learn how to play their class in PUG's. That's what guilds are for.
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
  • trackdemon5512
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    EVERY dungeon can be completed on Vet without a healer. Every single one. If you want to build a trial style DPS character with all attacks and no self heals (I’m not even considering the pale order ring) that’s on you.

    But the argument about fake healers is basically dead and has been for years. ZOS has essentially redone the dungeons to where the healer role is excised except for some hard modes like Moongrave Fane.

    Every class has access to self sustaining heals in their class kits. Heals that are strong enough that resto staves aren’t needed to boost them.

    Personally I feel that instead of arguing about fake healers players need to learn to better cover themselves nowadays.
  • iksde
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    You probably know that even the most difficult dungeons can be completed without a healer. Finder is used by many people to get 600 wpd / spd and experience / geode. By introducing any restrictions on the role, you will strike at experienced players who can play without a healer.

    ?? um no

    um yes? as Im not running in hardcore endgamers community yet I know few players capable of, have done triples with 3dd and tank on dungs like stone garden, moongrave etc
    Im myself close to them but still need a bit more epxerience toward such hard dung triples but already all triples from all other dungs I was doing with group without healer
    Edited by iksde on May 23, 2021 5:30PM
  • Brenticus12
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    Then make it permanent unless you refund all your skill points, attributes and champion points. :) Or, make healer only available as a role if you have restoration staff opened and equipped, as well as light armor. Same goes for tank, heavy armor and 1h + shield and/or ice staff equipped. :)

    bro, no one competent at tanking is running heavy armor for dungeons anymore. Most dungeon tanks that can actually play the game are running PA + Olo and medium armor tanking.

    All these suggestions to lock role switches to particular combinations of gear and skills are always so short sighted.
  • thorwyn
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    EVERY dungeon can be completed on Vet without a healer. Every single one. If you want to build a trial style DPS character with all attacks and no self heals (I’m not even considering the pale order ring) that’s on you.

    It's not about what is possible or not. For some people, it is possible to solo vet hm dlc dungeons. What people do when they are with their buddies is not the question.
    The question is, whether or not it is ok to fake a role in a PUG, where you might run into people who are completely new to the game and expect everyone to be on par with your level of skill and knowledge.
    Edited by thorwyn on May 23, 2021 5:54PM
    And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
    And if there is no room upon the hill
    And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
    I'll see you on the dark side of the moon
  • svendf
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    EVERY dungeon can be completed on Vet without a healer. Every single one. If you want to build a trial style DPS character with all attacks and no self heals (I’m not even considering the pale order ring) that’s on you.

    It's not about what is possible or not. For some people, it is possible to solo vet hm dlc dungeons. What people do when they are with their buddies is not the question.
    The question is, whether or not it is ok to fake a role in a PUG, where you might run into people who are completely new to the game and expect everyone to be on par with your level of skill and knowledge.

    This
  • iksde
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    thorwyn wrote: »
    EVERY dungeon can be completed on Vet without a healer. Every single one. If you want to build a trial style DPS character with all attacks and no self heals (I’m not even considering the pale order ring) that’s on you.

    It's not about what is possible or not. For some people, it is possible to solo vet hm dlc dungeons. What people do when they are with their buddies is not the question.
    The question is, whether or not it is ok to fake a role in a PUG, where you might run into people who are completely new to the game and expect everyone to be on par with your level of skill and knowledge.

    and this also can depend on which dung you queued

    - if thats one of easy vet basic dungs then there whoulnd a problem for any heal anyway with atleast one very good dd, but if they dont want this good dd as heal and prefer healer then they always have vote kick option
    - if that on of harder dungs/dlc dung then I expect someone more experienced, knowing what to do as this is DLC dung for which you need to have an knowledge about game, exp in order to be capable do this dung, do your role in it - and so as it was mentioned already - with more exp players healers are just usless outside trials unless they are so great buffers/debuffers as on trials to make them worth as 3rd dd in group

    so if people ahve problem (again) in dlc dung with fake healer - then they still have option to kick him if they are not themselves this single problem in team - like doing same dps as tank and/or staying within everything red and then crying they are dying or not knowing mechanics or anything which can 1shot them where healer wont help either if they dont want also to learn this
  • trackdemon5512
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    If you queue for a pug you’re accepting that you’re taking a chance. A chance on players that are queuing for their role. But at the same time a chance on joining players who may or may not know what they’re doing.

    You can be an actual tank or healer and have a proper group and get absolutely nowhere because players fail to adhere to or even learn mechanics. That’s a bigger issue than fake healers and tanks.

    It’s totally fine for fake healers and tanks to join. That’s how other players learn new ways of playing. If you go by the ZOS advised roles tanks are basically sword and board runners. But a fake tank can run so many other ways. I run a pet Sorc fake tank that’s a main mag Dps. With inner fire, a matriarch, razor caltrops, and lightning form I’m better than 95% of tanks out there, able to do vet dlc hard modes in light armor.

    The inadequate fake tank or healer problem can potentially be an issue but it’s so much of a small issue that by trying to filter them out you end up disenfranchising solid fakes or even real tanks/healers. It’s like curtailing voting for the majority to combat instances of fraud when statistically the actual incidence of fraud is inconsequential even without mitigation. You end up hurting more than solving.
  • ForeverJenn
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    There's a lot more fake dps than anything else. Ngl.
    Edited by ForeverJenn on May 23, 2021 6:55PM
  • ForeverJenn
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    I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

    Ok, but dps has to hit 20k. And if he can't cause someone else is too fast and better he gets to sit outside for 30 mins too.

    See how that works? Not a good idea. There's plenty of times my healer isn't needed so I switch to helping dps more. I shouldn't get penalized for adapting.
  • Agenericname
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    iksde wrote: »
    I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

    healing doesnt need to have effective HPS, for most it is enough to keep single HoT skill with occasionally burst heal when its really bad or just that moment for this, healer is more usefull with addiing buffs to group and debuffs to enemies than overhealing 24/7

    for holding agro it is also no problem whiel having slotted jsut inner rage from undaunted avaible for everyone with every weapon

    and it amuses me how DD role was not mentioned here to also have test for its DPS to show it is actually DD, not an healer or tank doing 5k-10k dps on fake DD role just for fun or trolls

    The reason I did not mention a DD test was because the problem mentioned in the thread is specifically about healers and tanks. I don't have any malicious intent towards the DD role here.

    Edit: typo

    If they're going to test for one, they're going to test for all. It's also not like the issues are not intertwined. If you take a poll of the top reasons why tanks avoid the queue, low DPS will certainly be near the top. The lack of tanks in the queue is what makes it as bad as it is. Healers and healing are a little different and IMO in a worse spot.

    We see more fake roles now because of rewards being the same in RND and RDV dungeons. Along with CP2.0 removing the cap and placing a much higher demand on the XP and transmutes, most players will run the RND simply because its the most efficient way to do it. Its easier to fake a role in RDN if you're a DD because the queues are so long, but there's a reason for that and until that is solved, this will probably continue.

    At face value, it doesn't look like DDs have much to do with it, unless you ask a tank why they won't queue.

    I've seen the arguments for and against, but they really need to open up a queue like we had before the change so that those who only care about a fast run regardless of group composition can queue into that instead into the RND with new players who want to learn their role. They can opt for a guild/friends group, but queuing as a tank or healer is still faster and the more efficient option and will likely be most chosen option until that changes.
  • Iarao
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    I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

    really? cuz dd me and my dd buddy run a lot of the non dlc dungeons all by our lonesome. no need for a tank/healer.
  • Amottica
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Just make tanks and healers as fun to play as a dd. Then the dungeon queues issues will solve themselves.

    Tanks and healers qol keeps getting gutted, so there is no wonder there is a shortage.

    I have seen players post in fake tank threads that the reason they refuse to tank with random GF groups is the poor DPS. SO maybe you are correct as those same players would probably agree that they would find it more enjoyable to run with random groups via the GF if the DPS could DPS.

    As for healing, it is fun in ESO. I have been enjoying healing because I can also do damage and any damaging skill I use does real damage. Granted, some players tend to stand in red and take the heavy hits in a manner that even the almighty would have a challenge healing them but that probably goes hand in hand with what those tanks were saying was the reason they avoid such random groups.
    Edited by Amottica on May 24, 2021 1:42AM
  • edward_frigidhands
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    I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.

    And my suggestion to stop this is:

    Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.

    You are trying to solve a social problem with a law/rule.

    A better idea is just introducing companions as they are about to.
  • Iccotak
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    iksde wrote: »
    Iccotak wrote: »
    You probably know that even the most difficult dungeons can be completed without a healer. Finder is used by many people to get 600 wpd / spd and experience / geode. By introducing any restrictions on the role, you will strike at experienced players who can play without a healer.

    ?? um no

    um yes? as Im not running in hardcore endgamers community yet I know few players capable of, have done triples with 3dd and tank on dungs like stone garden, moongrave etc
    Im myself close to them but still need a bit more epxerience toward such hard dung triples but already all triples from all other dungs I was doing with group without healer

    and as a Templar Tank I prefer a traditional group as I find that more reliable. I can only do so much self healing and buffing and could use a Healer there to keep me alive.

    Not everyone is up to that level of skill and it should be encourage for people to learn the traditional team before experimenting.
  • Lintashi
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    There is no way currently to get rid of fake healers, without hurting real ones in the process. Locking is not gonna work, because people will just continue to run fake role for whole month. Gear and attribute restrictions will not work too, firstly because build and tactics diversity is big, secondly because sometimes, you need to change a build or whole role in the middle of the dungeon. I play as real healer, but sometimes, group dps is so abysmal, that I have to go either hybrid or full dps just to get through. As for "healers not needed in vet dungeons" please, tell that to those real tanks, who fail vet Selene, because dds with 17k health cannot even kill ads, and party gets swarmed with 30+mobs because I cannot even deal damage, as the moment I stop healing, dds die. I play for many years, and I've yet to see one dungeon where healer is never needed if you pug, some even manage to run ahead, and wipe in FG1. I pug regularly, and more times than not, I see horrible dps, people standing in red light attacking only, people hiding behind my back from mobs, people ignoring mechanics completely. Ability to change roles is life saver in these situations, since I can add my damage to tank's and still somehow complete the dungeon. The only way to get rid of both fake tanks and healers, is to make sure, that tank and healer gameplay styles are interesting, and viable in all content. Currently, we have barely a dozen of gear sets for both healing/tanking, and dds get all the rest. The meta sets for healing/tanking were released years ago, and nothing new is ever added. Tanking and healing gets more and more restrictive, nerfed in each update, so people get frustrated. This is why good tanks and healers only go with their guilds, with rare exceptions.
  • Ezhh
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    I queued on full healer build today. Newish character. Still levelling the skills. It's not perfect, but it was geared for support (Olo+Hollowfang) with skills for healing/support. EH 1 pledge. Easy dungeon, right?

    Then one DD disconnects and I watch the remaining 1.5k CP DD do less damage than my healer. Streak spam on trash packs, and it looked like nothing else. I asked the group to wait a moment while I changed skills for a little more dps...

    Groups are usually happy with me switching to some dps skills (on my better levelled healers I often slot a couple as default by this point), and then I can help with damage as well as healing the group as needed. I get to feel more useful to the group and the group gets a cleaner dungeon run.

    Implementing some kind of lock on equip/skills/whatever other thing you can think of that a healer "should" have could make this kind of flexibility impossible, and would definitely discourage a lot of support players.
  • OgnevkaFenella
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    Silly take. I have characters of all roles, and only 2 of them are pure heavy duty tank and healer - ironically, they are not the ones I would ever pug a dungeon with, because their dps is like 5k at best. In 80% of cases that will cause a dungeon run to last an hour where it should be 20 minutes, and I just don't have that time. And I'm not here to babysit DDs and wait for them to find the business end of their weapon. I often come across DDs (often high CP!) who only use 1-2 skills, or skyrim stealth archers that stand as far away from the boss as possible and spam bow LAs.

    Fake tanks and healers are usually actually decent players who know they can do enough damage to make it a smooth run for everyone. Yes, they will "rush", but in 99% of pugs you won't be able to do any dungeon sightseeing anyway, even if it takes ages. You could be rushing or you could be staring at a boss' behind for 10 minutes over and over. It's equally a hollow experience in terms of dungeon "immersion". Pugging a dungeon and expecting to thoroughly experience it is silly and selfish.

    Case in point: I am currently leveling a magsorc on NA, I'm almost 500cp and I do a LOT of normal/vet dungeons to get undaunted/exp/gear. I queue as a healer despite being a dd, but I do have a resto staff backbarred with combat prayer, regeneration, emergency pet heal. Combat Metrics is running at all times to measure group dps and study the state of pugs. 8/10 times I pull 40-60% of group dps despite only doing 15-22k dps (and healing the group)! When I only do 20% - we have good dds. Fair enough for normals, but it's the same ratio in vets.

    I could probably save a boss fight from each dungeon I do for a month and then we would have a little bit of an insight on the pugging crowd. DDs are really damn bad in vet pugs, you guys. Nevermind normal dungeons, but in vets you should be able to step out of stupid and pull your weight. I had a group with 1k+cp dds wipe on hardmode vet Spindleclutch 1, because their damage was non-existent and they wouldn't step out of the well-telegraphed, blockable, not-that-big aoe around the main boss. If fake DDs were a thing, I'd say it was those. And they bother me much more than DDs with taunts queuing as tanks or DDs with heals queueing as healers.
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