BlueRaven wrote: »

Just make tanks and healers as fun to play as a dd. Then the dungeon queues issues will solve themselves.

Tanks and healers qol keeps getting gutted, so there is no wonder there is a shortage.

Not true. Tanks and healers hate pugs because dps 7/10 is bad and doesn't hold their own weight. So what happens? Tanks/healers tend to only tank for their guild.......

Nothing to do with being gutted, heck I can tank most things without even the need of a healer so that means I have too much survivability and should be gutted more. Or make the adds hit harder (not one shot mechanics though. Make it that a healer needs to actually heal)

Xebov wrote: »

PullaStormy wrote: »

I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.

And my suggestion to stop this is:

Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.

Just to get you right, iam a tank and your solution to your healer problem is that i should be locked into tank for all eternaty without the ability to run something as a DD from time to time? I guess you notice yourself how bad an idea that is.

This is the 3rd thread within a week suggesting a "solution" against a faker problem that would result in negative impact for actual support players. Just like the other ppl before you didnt spend not a second thinking about the impact it has.

I got three tanks, three dd´s and three healers. Point ! I used my nine slots. How many dd´s healers do you have.

I can´t say I agree 100% to OP`s suggestion, but something have to be done. In my book official tool like group finder should be a safe heaven. Everything else like gear, roles and whatever belong in a preformed group via zone or guild chat, where everthing should be allowed.

thorwyn wrote: »

My suggestion to counter fake healers in PUG dungeons:

Slot a self heal.

Most dd´s have a self heal onboard, which isn´t a problem, good to in a "uuuups" situation. The problem starss, when fake roles startss carry low end dd´s not learning to stand on their own feet and build for their role.

Playing with a healer and tank they need to or at least stand on their own feet instead of spaming heals like there is no tomorrow.

I have been in groups where our success depended on me being able to change my role. Sure it still says I am a tank or healer, but without me dealing damage we may not have passed the encounters.

People need to stop complaining about these trivial issues. If you want to succeed in PUGs, focus on yourself. Are you flexible enough to offer the group what it lacks? Is your place in the group really more valuable than that fake tank or healer? I have seen that often it is not.
Fact is, it's experienced players that are more likely to fake role into PUGs, and I would wager that this leads to far more successful runs than failures.

iksde wrote: »

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

healing doesnt need to have effective HPS, for most it is enough to keep single HoT skill with occasionally burst heal when its really bad or just that moment for this, healer is more usefull with addiing buffs to group and debuffs to enemies than overhealing 24/7

for holding agro it is also no problem whiel having slotted jsut inner rage from undaunted avaible for everyone with every weapon

and it amuses me how DD role was not mentioned here to also have test for its DPS to show it is actually DD, not an healer or tank doing 5k-10k dps on fake DD role just for fun or trolls

The reason I did not mention a DD test was because the problem mentioned in the thread is specifically about healers and tanks. I don't have any malicious intent towards the DD role here.

Edit: typo

thorwyn wrote: »

EVERY dungeon can be completed on Vet without a healer. Every single one. If you want to build a trial style DPS character with all attacks and no self heals (I’m not even considering the pale order ring) that’s on you.

It's not about what is possible or not. For some people, it is possible to solo vet hm dlc dungeons. What people do when they are with their buddies is not the question.
The question is, whether or not it is ok to fake a role in a PUG, where you might run into people who are completely new to the game and expect everyone to be on par with your level of skill and knowledge.

This

LettuceBrain wrote: »

I just came up with an idea that is probably utter garbage. How about each role has to meet a certain requirement or they can't queue as that role until, I don't know, 30 minutes later or something? For example, healer has to get 300k HPS (I don't know what the number should actually be, this is just an example) and if they don't meet that standard in their first dungeon they cannot queue as healer for another 30 minutes (again, that number is just an example). For tanks it would be aggro time or a certain number of taunts (or something else if anyone has better ideas for tank requirements).

Ok, but dps has to hit 20k. And if he can't cause someone else is too fast and better he gets to sit outside for 30 mins too.

See how that works? Not a good idea. There's plenty of times my healer isn't needed so I switch to helping dps more. I shouldn't get penalized for adapting.

PullaStormy wrote: »

I'm so tired of people queueing as a fake healer, I want a full party of appropriate roles as I don't want to repeat the bosses a million times when all the DDs die (I most often tank). It's also useful to have a healer if there are low level/CP players, as they will die more likely without a healer than someone on the 1000s.

And my suggestion to stop this is:

Add a role lock, just like there's and alliance lock for Cyro. Players would have to lock into one role for a month, preventing inconsiderate hotpants from ruining the fun for people who want to play by the rules. I'm tired of having to kick fake healers time and time again, so this would be for the best.

You are trying to solve a social problem with a law/rule.

A better idea is just introducing companions as they are about to.

There is no way currently to get rid of fake healers, without hurting real ones in the process. Locking is not gonna work, because people will just continue to run fake role for whole month. Gear and attribute restrictions will not work too, firstly because build and tactics diversity is big, secondly because sometimes, you need to change a build or whole role in the middle of the dungeon. I play as real healer, but sometimes, group dps is so abysmal, that I have to go either hybrid or full dps just to get through. As for "healers not needed in vet dungeons" please, tell that to those real tanks, who fail vet Selene, because dds with 17k health cannot even kill ads, and party gets swarmed with 30+mobs because I cannot even deal damage, as the moment I stop healing, dds die. I play for many years, and I've yet to see one dungeon where healer is never needed if you pug, some even manage to run ahead, and wipe in FG1. I pug regularly, and more times than not, I see horrible dps, people standing in red light attacking only, people hiding behind my back from mobs, people ignoring mechanics completely. Ability to change roles is life saver in these situations, since I can add my damage to tank's and still somehow complete the dungeon. The only way to get rid of both fake tanks and healers, is to make sure, that tank and healer gameplay styles are interesting, and viable in all content. Currently, we have barely a dozen of gear sets for both healing/tanking, and dds get all the rest. The meta sets for healing/tanking were released years ago, and nothing new is ever added. Tanking and healing gets more and more restrictive, nerfed in each update, so people get frustrated. This is why good tanks and healers only go with their guilds, with rare exceptions.

Silly take. I have characters of all roles, and only 2 of them are pure heavy duty tank and healer - ironically, they are not the ones I would ever pug a dungeon with, because their dps is like 5k at best. In 80% of cases that will cause a dungeon run to last an hour where it should be 20 minutes, and I just don't have that time. And I'm not here to babysit DDs and wait for them to find the business end of their weapon. I often come across DDs (often high CP!) who only use 1-2 skills, or skyrim stealth archers that stand as far away from the boss as possible and spam bow LAs.

Fake tanks and healers are usually actually decent players who know they can do enough damage to make it a smooth run for everyone. Yes, they will "rush", but in 99% of pugs you won't be able to do any dungeon sightseeing anyway, even if it takes ages. You could be rushing or you could be staring at a boss' behind for 10 minutes over and over. It's equally a hollow experience in terms of dungeon "immersion". Pugging a dungeon and expecting to thoroughly experience it is silly and selfish.

Case in point: I am currently leveling a magsorc on NA, I'm almost 500cp and I do a LOT of normal/vet dungeons to get undaunted/exp/gear. I queue as a healer despite being a dd, but I do have a resto staff backbarred with combat prayer, regeneration, emergency pet heal. Combat Metrics is running at all times to measure group dps and study the state of pugs. 8/10 times I pull 40-60% of group dps despite only doing 15-22k dps (and healing the group)! When I only do 20% - we have good dds. Fair enough for normals, but it's the same ratio in vets.

I could probably save a boss fight from each dungeon I do for a month and then we would have a little bit of an insight on the pugging crowd. DDs are really damn bad in vet pugs, you guys. Nevermind normal dungeons, but in vets you should be able to step out of stupid and pull your weight. I had a group with 1k+cp dds wipe on hardmode vet Spindleclutch 1, because their damage was non-existent and they wouldn't step out of the well-telegraphed, blockable, not-that-big aoe around the main boss. If fake DDs were a thing, I'd say it was those. And they bother me much more than DDs with taunts queuing as tanks or DDs with heals queueing as healers.