Dps nerf next update

carlos424 · May 2021

Stevie6 wrote: »

ZOS has lost its way. "Raise the Floor" will never happen when nerfing top end players. Separate PVE and PVP finally and end the needless suffering of nerfs. I could care less about players who do 100k plus. I'm not in their click/world and I never see them. ZOS should look at this as a SOLO experience because of the solo storyline experience. Everything that I do is basically solo story mode. So why not give us the tools (crap load more damage) to deal with all encounters. I would like to see in PVE a one button click for 30k + damage on a target without the need for twitch finger or key smashing 4 times to get any skills to work. Lag and no actions after key inputs is getting really old...really old. A single LA should be 10k to 15k damage and a hvy attack should be about the same and with a resource return.

SO ZOS put the damage back into damage and stop this divide between magicka and stamina. Power creep is a nothing burger to casual players. New players without a lot of cp will most likely level out and stay in overland content. There is nothing in this game that will guide a new player to get better dps. Some may pick it up LA weaving and become great players. However, what will ZOS do for casual heavy attack players? Nothing. Raising the Floor sounds like Build Back Better lol.

Companions ; )

Elusiin · May 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Dps nerf next patch is mostly fake news.

Youtube clickbait titles have you think the opposite and waaay exaggerate the effectiveness of proc set changes.

If you do build full damage to get about the original tooltips, you're gonna have no health and die just as fast. Plus there's a lot of reactive sets ingame now that basically counter ganking cheese one shot builds. I'm more afraid of stamina bleed dot builds now though, I do feel like they were buffed and changed around a lot. Hopefully that's not too op lol.

Rescorla_ESO · May 2021

Hexi wrote: »

Galbsadi wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

If you're looking for a challenge, PvE is not it. Never has been and never will be. They got rid of Vet levels and zones because the vast majority of their playerbase COULD NOT DO IT. The Vet zones were COMPLETELY deserted.

While I welcome the changes that One Tamriel brought and I LOVE the CP system, as I think it's a massive improvement over vet levels, this is incorrect.

Vet zones weren't deserted at all (in fact, I personally basically lived in Craglorn at the time). The change was more that non-endgame zones ended up deserted (a la WoW), and this helped make the whole game more vibrant.

Non-vet zones were never deserted. The moment you left Coldharbour the game became a ghost-town in comparison.

So what? In pretty much every single MMO I have ever played that gates access to zones by levels the newbie/lower level zones get less populated as the player base plays the game and their character's levels naturally increase over time. That allows the devs to continue adding challenging content that is more difficult than older content. ZOS boxed themselves into a corner with One Tamriel and limiting the challenge of PVE mobs to CP160 even in brand new content. The danger of going into Oblivion to face the minions of Mehrunes Dagon is just as difficult and challenging as facing the mobs in starter zones like Kenarthi's Roost.

Rescorla_ESO · May 2021

RevJJ wrote: »

Something I've always wondered. If animation canceling was intended, as some people are saying, why did ZOS go through the trouble of having the animations designed and implemented in the first place?

Good question. Animation cancelling has been in video games created long before ESO was created so ZOS devs had to know players would try to do it since it was already common practice in other games. Your question could be reworded this way:

If animation cancelling was not intended, why did ZOS not go to the trouble of putting in measures to prevent it?

tenryuta · May 2021

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

DPS does need to be addressed. Rationalize it how you will, if you're doing 100k+ dps, nearly the whole game is trivial to you. That's not good for the game, or for you.

My characters average between 5-10k dps... and overland content is largely trivial to me. If I find things trivial at THAT level of dps... anyone with higher dps is only going to benefit from the top end being pulled back down to reasonable levels.

From what I've seen (and I could be wrong), a large part of the problem is animation canceling. This has allowed people to essentially fire off two attacks at once, more or less DOUBLING dps. Lower level, less experienced/skilled players are not generally able to do this effectively, so eliminating animation cancelling strikes me as a move that would lower the top end without affecting the bottom end substantially.

But, that's just my first take on it. I don't know what they've chosen to do with it.

so does this mean players will finally get good animations like many mobs weapon/class skills, or are they staying basic?

Morgha_Kul · May 2021

tenryuta wrote: »

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

DPS does need to be addressed. Rationalize it how you will, if you're doing 100k+ dps, nearly the whole game is trivial to you. That's not good for the game, or for you.

My characters average between 5-10k dps... and overland content is largely trivial to me. If I find things trivial at THAT level of dps... anyone with higher dps is only going to benefit from the top end being pulled back down to reasonable levels.

From what I've seen (and I could be wrong), a large part of the problem is animation canceling. This has allowed people to essentially fire off two attacks at once, more or less DOUBLING dps. Lower level, less experienced/skilled players are not generally able to do this effectively, so eliminating animation cancelling strikes me as a move that would lower the top end without affecting the bottom end substantially.

But, that's just my first take on it. I don't know what they've chosen to do with it.

so does this mean players will finally get good animations like many mobs weapon/class skills, or are they staying basic?

I'm for that. A lot of the animations are pretty weak. Staff animations in particular have been a sore spot for me for a LONG time.

zvavi · May 2021

Elusiin wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Dps nerf next patch is mostly fake news.

Youtube clickbait titles have you think the opposite and waaay exaggerate the effectiveness of proc set changes.

If you do build full damage to get about the original tooltips, you're gonna have no health and die just as fast. Plus there's a lot of reactive sets ingame now that basically counter ganking cheese one shot builds. I'm more afraid of stamina bleed dot builds now though, I do feel like they were buffed and changed around a lot. Hopefully that's not too op lol.

I am PvE guy.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Jeremy Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that whole rant was directed at you, I partially agreed with your post. As for the guide you posted and others like it, they are some combination of wrong or outdated.

Block canceling has never increased DPS, it did once clip animations, but didn’t allow the use of another skill any faster. That one was a common misconception about 4 years ago, I remember some DPS looking silly with their blocks between every skill when target dummies were originally added, but it never helped their parse . Now it doesn’t even visually affect animations so it surprises me to hear anyone talk about block “canceling”.

Bash canceling increased DPS by the bash damage, which was pretty high for a while. It still didn’t speed anything up, but it did cut off animations awkwardly. Personally I’m glad this was fixed and the bash weave meta killed last year.

Bar swap canceling still does clip animations, but has no effect on speed of casts. I guess if you compare it to an alternate reality where every bar swap consumed a GCD the current system is a DPS gain, but I don’t think anyone wants bar swaps consuming a GCD. With the current system it has to clip the animation because it wouldn’t make sense to see your character doing an Endless Hail motion after they’ve already pulled out their swords for example.

In general, the devs have made some good updates to the animations. Light attack weaving shows animations, block casting shows animations (it’s a mystery why so many haven’t noticed this), bash weaving is discouraged except during an interruptible mechanic. But none of these were to fix some massive DPS gain from circumventing the GCD, they all just made the game look smoother, and telegraphed attacks more accurately to opponents in PVP.

@WrathOfInnos
And now I need to go testing. Haha. I thought blocking still did clip certain animations a bit, but I guess I could be wrong about that. I know they have made some changes in that regard a while ago.

Either way, 100% agree that it has no impact on DPS. As you said it was a pretty common myth 3-4 years ago, but it has no impact on DPS and certainly can't speed up your rotation in anyway. In my experience, it just makes your fingers hurt.

As for light attack weaving, unless you have High Ping, it is hard to even call weaving AC. You still see the LA fire, maybe a tiny bit less follow through, but that makes sense if your character was immediately going into another action.

Swap cancelling is the biggest culprit to clipping animations in this game, and again, most do without realizing it. It would be a disaster from a defensive standpoint to require Bar Swap to consume a GCD. There is an art to it to be sure when it comes to rotations. Most people will find that their biggest skill delays are those that come after a bar swap, so admittedly, there is some skill to doing this effectively to maintain your pace, but it certainly doesn't increase your pace beyond the GCD, nothing does.

DawnsLight65 · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Did this really need to turn into an opinion thread with misinformation about weaving and animation canceling? There are plenty of those already.

On the original topic, DPS is looking fine next patch. Just get the kilt and you’ll be about the same as current builds without mythics, maybe a little higher. The only thing that took a large hit was Simmering Frenzy builds with Pale Order, and those were only used for score runs, not achievement attempts.

the kilt?

Seminolegirl1992 · May 2021

Well. The issue is players who can obtain that title won't be affected at all. It only affects players that may be close to getting it but are now set back. The best players in this game will never struggle, no matter how hard of a nerf hammer they throw at them. It's always mid and low tier players that suffer.

I'm of the mindset that a dps nerf is needed in the sense that most content is ridiculously easy (except trifecta dlc trial achieves), but it tends to frustrate a lot of players (myself included) that are competent, but not elite. I think rather than taking power away from the player, and instead adding unique difficulty to a boss is more preferable than just destroying classes and builds.

WrathOfInnos · May 2021

@DawnsLight65 Harpooner’s Wading Kilt. It gives 5.7% crit chance and 10% crit damage as long as nothing is hitting you. Looks like it will be paired with 1pc slimecraw and replace other monster sets for most PVE builds (assuming there’s a tank holding aggro).

https://eso-sets.com/set/harpooners-wading-kilt

axi · May 2021

DawnsLight65 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Did this really need to turn into an opinion thread with misinformation about weaving and animation canceling? There are plenty of those already.

On the original topic, DPS is looking fine next patch. Just get the kilt and you’ll be about the same as current builds without mythics, maybe a little higher. The only thing that took a large hit was Simmering Frenzy builds with Pale Order, and those were only used for score runs, not achievement attempts.

the kilt?

New mythic.

James-Wayne · May 2021

The issue is light attack damage which on some builds provides the most DPS out of all attacks. If you dont light attack weave or cant do it well then your instantly nerfing your own damage.

Fix is simple, nerf light attack damage so high end players can weave (lower ceiling) but also not affect the damage of players who can't perfect the weave (raise floor).

BlueRaven · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@DawnsLight65 Harpooner’s Wading Kilt. It gives 5.7% crit chance and 10% crit damage as long as nothing is hitting you. Looks like it will be paired with 1pc slimecraw and replace other monster sets for most PVE builds (assuming there’s a tank holding aggro).

https://eso-sets.com/set/harpooners-wading-kilt

So it’s kind of ok for group content (I assume the unavoidable damage in most trials also affects this?), but kind of bad for things like the new portals, and the like. /shrug

Seems like it might be better for stealth snipers in pvp to me.

EDIT: Great for target dummies I suppose.

WrathOfInnos · May 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@DawnsLight65 Harpooner’s Wading Kilt. It gives 5.7% crit chance and 10% crit damage as long as nothing is hitting you. Looks like it will be paired with 1pc slimecraw and replace other monster sets for most PVE builds (assuming there’s a tank holding aggro).

https://eso-sets.com/set/harpooners-wading-kilt

So it’s kind of ok for group content (I assume the unavoidable damage in most trials also affects this?), but kind of bad for things like the new portals, and the like. /shrug

Seems like it might be better for stealth snipers in pvp to me.

It’s not great (the week 1 version was significantly better), but it does seem to beat mixing 2 crit sets or Zaan. And at a full 10 stacks, it beats them by enough to cancel out the effects of the CP passive nerfs. Nothing thrilling, but roughly equal to current DPS.

MudcrabAttack · May 2021

DPS was nerfed on the PTS? Is this about the Ring of the pale order no longer healing a group of toggled vamps? A lot of people don't bother with all that

With the new master at arms + kilt, it went up for me

BlueRaven · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@DawnsLight65 Harpooner’s Wading Kilt. It gives 5.7% crit chance and 10% crit damage as long as nothing is hitting you. Looks like it will be paired with 1pc slimecraw and replace other monster sets for most PVE builds (assuming there’s a tank holding aggro).

https://eso-sets.com/set/harpooners-wading-kilt

So it’s kind of ok for group content (I assume the unavoidable damage in most trials also affects this?), but kind of bad for things like the new portals, and the like. /shrug

Seems like it might be better for stealth snipers in pvp to me.

It’s not great (the week 1 version was significantly better), but it does seem to beat mixing 2 crit sets or Zaan. And at a full 10 stacks, it beats them by enough to cancel out the effects of the CP passive nerfs. Nothing thrilling, but roughly equal to current DPS.

All right, fair enough. Thanks for the info!

ajkb78 · May 2021

Hexi wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

mobicera wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

DPS needs a nerf. No point giving us dungeon mechanics which nobody sees.

ZOS Designs a dungeon to be completed with gear gained from previous tier of content.

People with gear form the tier above the dungeon go in.

"OMG Y IS GAYME SO EZ?!"

Why don't you go do those Vet dungeons with overland and normal dungeon gear and see how it goes.

What tiers are there?
Perfect and non perfect?
That's like 1k dps?
Would overland and base game dungeons count as a tier above dungeons?
Because I can burn through stuff in 4 person fast af with bsw/ms or medusa and 2 piece crit.

It's not tiers of gear, it's tiers of knowledge.
Knowledge and skill are the key factors in dps in this game, sorry this isn't wow.

Base game vet dungeons were not designed with weaving and animation cancelling in mind.

Weaving has been here since day 1.

Nobody knew it wasn't a bannable thing to do for a long time. That's not even the point. The dungeon mechanics and enemy HP were not designed with weaving and ani-cancelling with block in mind.

It's kind of a moot point, a historical legacy. Whether or not weaving was intended, the developers have clearly embraced it. Perhaps the boss health of normal Fungal Grotto 1 wasn't designed with weaving in mind. (Originally FG1 was only available on normal, FG2 was vet remember.) But recent dungeons certainly have been. That's why Lady Thorn vet HM has 21 million health.

And all of that is fine: normal FG1 presents a challenge to new level 10 players just entering their first group dungeon. Castle Thorn or Stone Garden trifectas present a challenge to, well, most players. And there's something for everyone in between. That's kind of a healthy structure for the game. If you're suggesting normal FG1 is too easy, well yes it might be for you and me but it isn't designed with you as an endgame player in mind. Are you suggesting we ramp all vet dungeons to the difficulty of vet Stone Garden? So how's a player tackling their first vet dungeon supposed to cope when they jump from normal City of Ash 2 say to vet FG1 except vet FG1 is as hard as vet Stone Garden is today?

So to say "ooh the base game dungeons are too easy, nerf damage" is idiotic, because it neglects everything that's been released since, both in terms of increased boss health and increased set and buff / debuff power, and the point has always been that content covers a range of difficulty and caters to a range of players. Do dungeons (even normal ones) with randoms rather than endgame guildie sometimes and you'll see that for a lot of players the easier content isn't undertuned at all.

Luckily I think at least this is something the developers understand pretty well about their game and they don't listen to such nonsense whenever it (too frequently) comes up in the forums, because they understand the range of competence across the whole of their player base.

Jeremy · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Jeremy Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that whole rant was directed at you, I partially agreed with your post. As for the guide you posted and others like it, they are some combination of wrong or outdated.

Block canceling has never increased DPS, it did once clip animations, but didn’t allow the use of another skill any faster. That one was a common misconception about 4 years ago, I remember some DPS looking silly with their blocks between every skill when target dummies were originally added, but it never helped their parse . Now it doesn’t even visually affect animations so it surprises me to hear anyone talk about block “canceling”.

Bash canceling increased DPS by the bash damage, which was pretty high for a while. It still didn’t speed anything up, but it did cut off animations awkwardly. Personally I’m glad this was fixed and the bash weave meta killed last year.

Bar swap canceling still does clip animations, but has no effect on speed of casts. I guess if you compare it to an alternate reality where every bar swap consumed a GCD the current system is a DPS gain, but I don’t think anyone wants bar swaps consuming a GCD. With the current system it has to clip the animation because it wouldn’t make sense to see your character doing an Endless Hail motion after they’ve already pulled out their swords for example.

In general, the devs have made some good updates to the animations. Light attack weaving shows animations, block casting shows animations (it’s a mystery why so many haven’t noticed this), bash weaving is discouraged except during an interruptible mechanic. But none of these were to fix some massive DPS gain from circumventing the GCD, they all just made the game look smoother, and telegraphed attacks more accurately to opponents in PVP.

NP, WrathOfInnos. I didn't mean to come off as defensive, but re-reading my post I can see how you might have took it that way.

I was just trying to make it clear that I wasn't trying to weigh in one way or the other on the debate about whether or not animation canceling speeds up rotations. My only point was that light attack weaving was/is an intended element of the gameplay and shouldn't be lumped in under the broader banner of "animation canceling" as if it were a mistake or something unintended.

DawnsLight65 · May 2021

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@DawnsLight65 Harpooner’s Wading Kilt. It gives 5.7% crit chance and 10% crit damage as long as nothing is hitting you. Looks like it will be paired with 1pc slimecraw and replace other monster sets for most PVE builds (assuming there’s a tank holding aggro).

https://eso-sets.com/set/harpooners-wading-kilt

cool!