YoWombat wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Out of the 5 chapters/expansions (Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood), only one has snow in it, literally three are in Tamriel's south. Vvardenfell is pretty far north but due to Red Mountain not cold at all.

I was referring to Wrothgar, Western Skyrim, and the Reach, then Eastmarch and the Rift in the base game. They have their differences, sure, but all have very similar cold, rugged, Skyrim-esque terrain. Keep in mind Skyrim is still the most recent main entry in the Elder Scrolls series too, and has seen re-release after re-release for ten years now. I'd love a Breton expansion, but yet another zone up in that region is not something I'm clamouring for. If we're going to see Bretons, let it epitomize Breton landscapes and culture, not "Skyrim, but now with Bretons".

all we have is a snow zone though sadly, anything but that would require revisting the zones already touched

YoWombat wrote: »

I'd love to have a Breton focused expansion, but I REALLY don't want yet another cold northern zone. We've already had three expansions in that terrain, not to mention the zones in the base game.

Surely they could reveal some previously unknown Breton island off the coast of Glenumbra, or elaborate on the time travel mechanic they've used in various quests or some such shenannigans to provide us with a new Breton area to explore?

I love Bretons but I would rather them be removed from the game then have a whole zone based on time travel. Its a over used, rarely done well trope. Honestly its one of the worst thing to inflict on a narrative structure in video games.

Anyway, I would be lying if I said I wasnt extremely disappointed when the new zones with better art design started coming out and High Rock would never see that since it was covered in the base game where the writing is at its worst and the world design is far from anything great. I mean compare it to the zones they make now? Its super unfair to me to see Bretons get shafted so hard on that. The Breton Hero in the trailers always getting rekt almost seems like they are telling us how they feel about them.

Bretons still got it better than Altmer. 3½ zones (part of Bangkorai is High Rock), vs a zone and a chapter zone that is only about half as big as it looked.

it's bland in part because Bretons are bland but also because so is the bulk of the base game, almost all of which needs a facelift.
that being said, I'll always prefer more content over less content, so I'm fine with this being a thing.

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that zone would be rather small, it would have to be on the same scale as the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood DLC unless they expand Blackreach even more and state it stretches into High Rock as well.

The zones in game are plainly not in scale to each other.

All of the zones in the game are "abridged" versions of the places they depict. the Jehanna region could just be a bit less abridged to make it fit into a full DLC-sized zone. It's probably too small for a Chapter, though, even though Bretons certainly deserve one after how shallow the depiction of the land and culture in ESO turned out to be.

Breton zone with spell crafting, count me in!

Narvuntien wrote: »

That region is definitely Reachman territory atm.

We are only a few years past the Reachmen emperors apparently and the Bretons got pushed right to Daggerfall by Daurach. So yeah Bretons are probably at their weakest at this point in history.

Which is why they formed the covenant and elected a high king because otherwise, they'd have been happy to just be independent kingdoms

There's really nothing either in game or in other lore that suggests the region in question is entirely Reachman territory.

The Reachman invasion lead by Durchorach the Black Drake, did sack several cities and villages in High Rock (notably Evermore), and their siege of Wayrest was abandoned as it went on too long, which is what sent them towards Daggerfall. The suggestion seems to be that the invasion was lead from Cyrodiil through the portions of High Rock along the Bjoulsae River and the northern shores of the Iliac Bay. Considering that the dominant clan in Wrothgar was the Winterborn, I would imagine that the Black Drake probably did not take his army northwards so as to avoid conflicts with another Reachman clan. Considering the proximity of the city to the border with Skyrim as well as it's location on the shore, it could very well be that the Reachman clans in the area stay more to the mountainous regions in the central portions of the province, choosing to ignore the city.

(It also wouldn't be hard to say that there was an attempt to pillage Jehanna, but the city stood firm despite some cosmetic damage through the siege.).

When it comes to Jehanna, almost nothing has been mentioned about it. The writers pretty much said "Jehanna, what Jehanna? Oh, you mean these docks..." and then renamed the Horker Docks. A Jehanna DLC would be a worthy correction, as well as a good way to delve into and expand on Breton lore.

ArchMikem wrote: »

How is there an enclave of Bretons sandwiched between Orsinium and Skyrim?

A few reaons:

One, the lands that are currently under the jurisdiction of the city of Orsinium haven't always been under that jurisdiction, as the right for control of those lands was granted to the Orcs under the terms of the agreement between High King Emeric and Kurog that brought the Orcs into membership of the Daggerfall Covenant. That land has in the past been under the jurisdiction of other small kingdoms and cities, the chief of the two being Farrun and Jehanna. (Both cities being mentioned in connection with the First Era).

Two, the location of the "Jehanna" Docks doesn't line up with the location of the city of Jehanna in every previous map of High Rock in existence, thus allowing for the existence of the city in the unfilled land. The city should sit close to the border of Skyrim with High Rock, further east from Farrun than the docks suggest (assuming Fahrun is supposed to be an orcish bastardization of Farrun). The benefit of ZOS's general borking up the map with new mountain ranges and hills to create zone borders is that it would result in natural borders that could explain a potential defensive nature of Jehanna.

Three, Jehanna is a very old city. Not much is known about the settlement there prior to the First Empire of the Nords conquered the region, but it was under that Empire that the settlements there rose to the status of city. When the FEotN crumbled after the Wars of Succession the Direnni regained control and eventually their power too waned, and the Bretons rose to fill in the power vacuum and self-governance. This has led to an ancient city that is primarily Breton, but with roots in both Direnni and Nordic culture.

In conclusion, a very old Breton city, located in the northern frontier of High Rock, beyond the borders of the Daggerfall Covenant, is a very likely possibility, especially considering it's proper location has yet to be seen in game. If ZOS does the right thing, they would take advantage of the opportunity and introduce the city in a DLC (even if it has to be a smaller DLC). Any other action would be to waste that space and the opportunity it presents.

ealdwin wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

bretons are boring af - i mean did u ever look at them ? nothing special at all
and i think imperials already cover that spot so no need for more of them

Bretons are only boring if one assumes their culture and society is equivalent to an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.
Which it is not.
Far from it.

The problem is that in several cases, ZOS chose to treat Breton culture and society with the equivalence of an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.

indeed, so much to explore like druidism, spell-knights, minor gods, etc

ArchMikem wrote: »

How is there an enclave of Bretons sandwiched between Orsinium and Skyrim?

To add some possibilities to what @ealdwin has already explained, we can take some basic facts and speculate:

The region that became Wrothgar was part of the Breton province of High Rock, and must have been for Emeric to give it away to the Orcs.

We know that Jehanna existed at least before this time. In established lore, it was portrayed, along with Evermore as aloof and distant from the Iliac Breton cities due to the Wrothgarian Mountains, which separated the two regions.

We know that Bretons are always described as remarkably fractuous, with lots of internal politics, and we know that Emeric has been described as shrewd. Amongst Bretons, that must say something.

Its not too hard to imagine such fractuous, plotting Breton kingdoms, particularly those which probably have significant differences, might come to some sort of conflict. Jehanna may have allied with Shornhelm when Northpoint rebelled against Emeric. Geographically, they have a lot in common, and it may have been a natural alliance. Or perhaps the aid wasn't explicit, but there was reason to believe that Jehanna had secretly colluded with Shornhelm. Or we could even leave old stories behind altogether and imagine dozens of reasons and political maneuverings that might arise from secret grudges.

Either way. High King Emeric could have found more interesting reason than just alliance with Kurog's Orsinium for the handing over of such a huge swathe of land when we consider that it almost completely isolates the already distant Kingdom of Bretons in the Druadachs.

There's a lot going on in this region. There's the Western Reach and the Forgotten Vale and Nords once settled there. There could also be Direnni, Orcish and Dwemer sites. Perhaps it could arranged as follows:

Jehanna Fjord
NPCs in Wrothgar and Western Skyrim don't have much to say about Jehanna and that's because it's a glorified fishing village. But it has a complex history involving Elves, Nords, Reachfolk, Orcs and ultimately, Bretons. The valley and surrounding waters have adequate food, wood and stone, but little else worth trading. Its king and people aren't hostile to the outside world, but they're self reliant and proud of their identity and traditions, including the veneration of figures that have become secondary in the faiths of Greater Bretony. Its knights have become capable defenders of their realm, although in practice, they mostly rely on diplomacy, acting as a buffer between their neighbours.

In the west, is the village of Cloud Spring. The village is low lying and along the Jehanna Road, while the land around the Cloud Spring itself is in the eastern Wrothgarian Mountains and used for summer pasture.

Dunlain Falls is an aspiring mining town next to the northern entrance of the Deep Road (Dunlain itself is an ancient fort in the overlooking mountains). Some of the Bretons abandoned it when the southern Jehanna Road became too dangerous, but some of those who remain have ambitions to expand underground. They've excavated passages to the Forgotten Vale and the wider Blackreach, but they need armed protection and to find something of enough value to gain sponsorship to continue their work.

Forgotten Vale
Barely accessible and possibly named something else, the mountains surrounding the Forgotten Vale split the Breton north of the region from the Reach south. I don't know if the Betrayed have over run it yet.

The Western Reach
A valley system leading into the Bjoulsae in Mournoth. Today, it's populated several Reach clans and the Orcish Murtag clan and it's dotted with Elven ruins.

The Murtag Clan stronghold is in the southeastern Wrothgarian Mountains, immediately to the west of the southern entrance to the zone. By the end of the Era, this will be Dunkarn Haven. With the support of the Daggerfall Covenant, they have been fighting to secure and complete the Jehanna Road. This puts them at odds with most local Reachfolk clans. It wasn't the start of their conflict, but they have coexisted peacefully before.

I'd consider moving Karthgran Vale east towards the Druadachs because of its name. This is a valley above and to the West of Markarth and immediately southeast of the Forgotten Vale. Geographically, it could be argued to be part of the Reach rather than the Western Reach. It's isolated and easily defended, but colder than most settled areas of either Reach, because of its altitude.

Raven Spring is also in the Western Druadach mountains, but milder, like the rest of the valleys. It is home to one of the most stable Reach clans in the area.

The Jehanna Road
This would be the road that connects Evermore to Jehanna, leading from Jackdaw Cove. The northern stretch, between Dunlain and Jehanna is intact and in regular use. The construction and use of the road in the Western Reach has been stunted by banditry for most of the century. The road's most unusual feature is between these areas. This is the Deep Road, which leads through caves under the mountains that connect the Wrothgarian and Druadach ranges in a rough cross. The passage was originally used and inhabited by Dwemer and has been found to connect to even bigger caves to the east and a vale directly above.

Hate to thread necro, but there's *more than plenty* of room for a full sized chapter in that sliver of land when you consider how far off the scaling of the zones are. Here's an old map borrowed from reddit. If they properly scaled it, or took liberty to make it even bigger than properly scaled, It could easily be bigger than the last three chapters were.

RealJobasha wrote: »

Hate to thread necro, but there's *more than plenty* of room for a full sized chapter in that sliver of land when you consider how far off the scaling of the zones are. Here's an old map borrowed from reddit. If they properly scaled it, or took liberty to make it even bigger than properly scaled, It could easily be bigger than the last three chapters were.

this does give me hope

six2fall wrote: »

New content doesnt always have to mean a new zone. I'd love for them to go back to base game zones & alter the landscapes to accommodate new content especially daggerfall that needs more breton influence

Yeah that is what I think they need to do, there is a lot they can do with Bretons, and given the UESP has a lot more on their culture and stuff and has a great reference guide to everything Breton now, Zenimax can go back and use that to flesh them out. There is so much to Breton Culture and stuff, that is interesting and even religious lore they can do. Jehanna should be added in as an expansion to the Wrothgar zone, and have its own storyline elements and stuff. Making it a more Bretonish/Nordic city. Maybe Orc influence because Orcs control a lot of Wrothgar, as they could expand the Wrothgar zone to include it.