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Aliyavana

YoWombat wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Out of the 5 chapters/expansions (Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, Blackwood), only one has snow in it, literally three are in Tamriel's south. Vvardenfell is pretty far north but due to Red Mountain not cold at all.

I was referring to Wrothgar, Western Skyrim, and the Reach, then Eastmarch and the Rift in the base game. They have their differences, sure, but all have very similar cold, rugged, Skyrim-esque terrain. Keep in mind Skyrim is still the most recent main entry in the Elder Scrolls series too, and has seen re-release after re-release for ten years now. I'd love a Breton expansion, but yet another zone up in that region is not something I'm clamouring for. If we're going to see Bretons, let it epitomize Breton landscapes and culture, not "Skyrim, but now with Bretons".

all we have is a snow zone though sadly, anything but that would require revisting the zones already touched

Arahallris

I remember playing beta and spending most of my time in Glenumbra with the other half being in Auridon. I really liked the Breton themes. A real shame that there isn't more related zones dedicated to them.

Tessitura

YoWombat wrote: »

I'd love to have a Breton focused expansion, but I REALLY don't want yet another cold northern zone. We've already had three expansions in that terrain, not to mention the zones in the base game.

Surely they could reveal some previously unknown Breton island off the coast of Glenumbra, or elaborate on the time travel mechanic they've used in various quests or some such shenannigans to provide us with a new Breton area to explore?

I love Bretons but I would rather them be removed from the game then have a whole zone based on time travel. Its a over used, rarely done well trope. Honestly its one of the worst thing to inflict on a narrative structure in video games.

Anyway, I would be lying if I said I wasnt extremely disappointed when the new zones with better art design started coming out and High Rock would never see that since it was covered in the base game where the writing is at its worst and the world design is far from anything great. I mean compare it to the zones they make now? Its super unfair to me to see Bretons get shafted so hard on that. The Breton Hero in the trailers always getting rekt almost seems like they are telling us how they feel about them.

TheRimOfTheSky

I'd really love for nothing more than for Jehanna to be in that area of land in a future DLC zone, it has all the right pieces, just needs to be put together one day

(and I think everybody would be okay with Jehanna Docks being named back to its original Horker Docks)

Zulera301

Bretons still got it better than Altmer. 3½ zones (part of Bangkorai is High Rock), vs a zone and a chapter zone that is only about half as big as it looked.

it's bland in part because Bretons are bland but also because so is the bulk of the base game, almost all of which needs a facelift.
that being said, I'll always prefer more content over less content, so I'm fine with this being a thing.

EvilAutoTech

I don't think size of the landmass has anything to do with whether or not it can hold enough content to be a chapter. I haven't been a fan of locked doors on buildings that are just there to take up space.

MasterSpatula

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that zone would be rather small, it would have to be on the same scale as the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood DLC unless they expand Blackreach even more and state it stretches into High Rock as well.

The zones in game are plainly not in scale to each other.

All of the zones in the game are "abridged" versions of the places they depict. the Jehanna region could just be a bit less abridged to make it fit into a full DLC-sized zone. It's probably too small for a Chapter, though, even though Bretons certainly deserve one after how shallow the depiction of the land and culture in ESO turned out to be.

Supreme_Atromancer

I think the problem with base-game Bretons is that the writers did not really have a feel for what they were.

Because we haven't seen them in a modern mainline game, ZOS has an excellent opportunity here. There are a bunch of cool hooks - (a race of elf-blooded nedes powerful in the arts of conjuration, etc), but they have the freedom to use them in creative ways to lift the Bretons out of the 2-d pages of the Emperor's Guides and make them distinct.

As to the Jehanna region? Yes please! We never got a sense of what "The Western Reach" was meant to be in the base game. Its never mentioned once in ESO - Ard Caddach seems oblivious to its existence, and Wrothgar- and its orc occupants- seemed to have massively swolen and eclipsed its Daggerfall-era location, leaving no room for it.

Yet we know the region existed as a political entity at this time, and was important enough to warrant strong Imperial attention (interference?) culminating in its split from Skyrim's Reach and administration by an Imperial Governor.

Lawrence's imagined Breton may somehow have been oblivious to the existence of Jehanna, though common recipes originating from the place and a freaking major road named after it would probably suggest that his Breton was either drunk, or a Nord cartographer in disguise ( https://imperial-library.info/content/posts-schick-2015 12th comment down) I can personally imagine a situation where the docks are somewhat remote from- but serve- a mountain-bound Kingdom just to the east over the bounds of the zone.

The famous Direnni watch towers, First Empire Nordic aspirations (and heritage), Cloud Springs (and Raven Spring), Azra's Crossing, Dunlain, lost glacial valleys and frontier dwelling Bretons are some of the powerful hooks from out of the lore crying for resolution and exploration.

Its the PERFECT opportunity to give a deep dive for the Bretons. Please, ZOS!

Septimus_Magna

Breton zone with spell crafting, count me in!

Lephrel

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that zone would be rather small, it would have to be on the same scale as the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood DLC unless they expand Blackreach even more and state it stretches into High Rock as well.

Perhaps they won't be able to break it up into four parts like Skyrim then.

B0SSzombie

Could be a neat idea for a Chapter sized release that's actually a bunch of "Tiny" zones like this theoretical one, where you travel around like in the original Elder Scrolls.

Basically just an excuse to fill in the tiny gaps in the map, like between the Elsweyr zones.

Narvuntien

That region is definitely Reachman territory atm.

We are only a few years past the Reachmen emperors apparently and the Bretons got pushed right to Daggerfall by Daurach. So yeah Bretons are probably at their weakest at this point in history.

Which is why they formed the covenant and elected a high king because otherwise, they'd have been happy to just be independent kingdoms

ealdwin

Narvuntien wrote: »

That region is definitely Reachman territory atm.

We are only a few years past the Reachmen emperors apparently and the Bretons got pushed right to Daggerfall by Daurach. So yeah Bretons are probably at their weakest at this point in history.

Which is why they formed the covenant and elected a high king because otherwise, they'd have been happy to just be independent kingdoms

There's really nothing either in game or in other lore that suggests the region in question is entirely Reachman territory.

The Reachman invasion lead by Durchorach the Black Drake, did sack several cities and villages in High Rock (notably Evermore), and their siege of Wayrest was abandoned as it went on too long, which is what sent them towards Daggerfall. The suggestion seems to be that the invasion was lead from Cyrodiil through the portions of High Rock along the Bjoulsae River and the northern shores of the Iliac Bay. Considering that the dominant clan in Wrothgar was the Winterborn, I would imagine that the Black Drake probably did not take his army northwards so as to avoid conflicts with another Reachman clan. Considering the proximity of the city to the border with Skyrim as well as it's location on the shore, it could very well be that the Reachman clans in the area stay more to the mountainous regions in the central portions of the province, choosing to ignore the city.

(It also wouldn't be hard to say that there was an attempt to pillage Jehanna, but the city stood firm despite some cosmetic damage through the siege.).

When it comes to Jehanna, almost nothing has been mentioned about it. The writers pretty much said "Jehanna, what Jehanna? Oh, you mean these docks..." and then renamed the Horker Docks. A Jehanna DLC would be a worthy correction, as well as a good way to delve into and expand on Breton lore.

Supreme_Atromancer

ealdwin wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

That region is definitely Reachman territory atm.

We are only a few years past the Reachmen emperors apparently and the Bretons got pushed right to Daggerfall by Daurach. So yeah Bretons are probably at their weakest at this point in history.

Which is why they formed the covenant and elected a high king because otherwise, they'd have been happy to just be independent kingdoms

There's really nothing either in game or in other lore that suggests the region in question is entirely Reachman territory.

Yeah, in Orsinium, Forge-Mother Alga just says that they were "from the Reach", and that they held these lands during Durcorach's reign. I don't think the writers were completely cognisant of the existence of The Western Reach when they wrote it.

When it comes to Jehanna, almost nothing has been mentioned about it. The writers pretty much said "Jehanna, what Jehanna? Oh, you mean these docks..." and then renamed the Horker Docks. A Jehanna DLC would be a worthy correction, as well as a good way to delve into and expand on Breton lore.

A road named after it is described in The Emperor's Guide, produced when ESO was launched. I guess we could infer that it was meant to be a major destination, then. They forgot about it, and I guess that quote represents a sudden remembering and a hurried attempt to remedy the situation!

There's really nothing either in game or in other lore that suggests the region in question is entirely Reachman territory.

Yeah, not entirely Reachmen, I agree. The lore surrounding the birth and existence of The Western Reach offers an interesting opportunity to explore some really interesting hooks, and it would be great to maybe see a little of the fate of the Winterborn/Reachmen, but they've told a lot of Reachmen story already and there's plenty of room to tell new stories, besides.

All we know about Jehanna is that it is a Breton City on the frontier, and between two contrasting worlds (Breton and Nord). Its on the frosty Sea of Ghosts and might be an important part of a trade network. That alone, to me, feels like it offers some really compelling hooks for world creation and story.

Its a small sliver of land on the map, but the map is borked and zones don't scale properly anyway. And besides, like someone mentioned before, the opportunity for verticality is pretty pronounced in this region, and that's something they've been developing for since Orsinium.

KhajiitLivesMatter

bretons are boring af - i mean did u ever look at them ? nothing special at all
and i think imperials already cover that spot so no need for more of them

ArchMikem

How is there an enclave of Bretons sandwiched between Orsinium and Skyrim?

ealdwin

ArchMikem wrote: »

How is there an enclave of Bretons sandwiched between Orsinium and Skyrim?

A few reaons:

One, the lands that are currently under the jurisdiction of the city of Orsinium haven't always been under that jurisdiction, as the right for control of those lands was granted to the Orcs under the terms of the agreement between High King Emeric and Kurog that brought the Orcs into membership of the Daggerfall Covenant. That land has in the past been under the jurisdiction of other small kingdoms and cities, the chief of the two being Farrun and Jehanna. (Both cities being mentioned in connection with the First Era).

Two, the location of the "Jehanna" Docks doesn't line up with the location of the city of Jehanna in every previous map of High Rock in existence, thus allowing for the existence of the city in the unfilled land. The city should sit close to the border of Skyrim with High Rock, further east from Farrun than the docks suggest (assuming Fahrun is supposed to be an orcish bastardization of Farrun). The benefit of ZOS's general borking up the map with new mountain ranges and hills to create zone borders is that it would result in natural borders that could explain a potential defensive nature of Jehanna.

Three, Jehanna is a very old city. Not much is known about the settlement there prior to the First Empire of the Nords conquered the region, but it was under that Empire that the settlements there rose to the status of city. When the FEotN crumbled after the Wars of Succession the Direnni regained control and eventually their power too waned, and the Bretons rose to fill in the power vacuum and self-governance. This has led to an ancient city that is primarily Breton, but with roots in both Direnni and Nordic culture.

In conclusion, a very old Breton city, located in the northern frontier of High Rock, beyond the borders of the Daggerfall Covenant, is a very likely possibility, especially considering it's proper location has yet to be seen in game. If ZOS does the right thing, they would take advantage of the opportunity and introduce the city in a DLC (even if it has to be a smaller DLC). Any other action would be to waste that space and the opportunity it presents.

ealdwin

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

bretons are boring af - i mean did u ever look at them ? nothing special at all
and i think imperials already cover that spot so no need for more of them

Bretons are only boring if one assumes their culture and society is equivalent to an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.
Which it is not.
Far from it.

The problem is that in several cases, ZOS chose to treat Breton culture and society with the equivalence of an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.

Aliyavana

ealdwin wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

bretons are boring af - i mean did u ever look at them ? nothing special at all
and i think imperials already cover that spot so no need for more of them

Bretons are only boring if one assumes their culture and society is equivalent to an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.
Which it is not.
Far from it.

The problem is that in several cases, ZOS chose to treat Breton culture and society with the equivalence of an amateur Renaissance Fair in an American small town.

indeed, so much to explore like druidism, spell-knights, minor gods, etc

EnerG

Eh, I greatly dislike bretons so like all the power too you if you do but that'd be a pass for me. And by greatly dislike I mean I hate them lol, theyre boring and basic to me.

Supreme_Atromancer

ArchMikem wrote: »

How is there an enclave of Bretons sandwiched between Orsinium and Skyrim?

To add some possibilities to what @ealdwin has already explained, we can take some basic facts and speculate:

The region that became Wrothgar was part of the Breton province of High Rock, and must have been for Emeric to give it away to the Orcs.

We know that Jehanna existed at least before this time. In established lore, it was portrayed, along with Evermore as aloof and distant from the Iliac Breton cities due to the Wrothgarian Mountains, which separated the two regions.

We know that Bretons are always described as remarkably fractuous, with lots of internal politics, and we know that Emeric has been described as shrewd. Amongst Bretons, that must say something.

Its not too hard to imagine such fractuous, plotting Breton kingdoms, particularly those which probably have significant differences, might come to some sort of conflict. Jehanna may have allied with Shornhelm when Northpoint rebelled against Emeric. Geographically, they have a lot in common, and it may have been a natural alliance. Or perhaps the aid wasn't explicit, but there was reason to believe that Jehanna had secretly colluded with Shornhelm. Or we could even leave old stories behind altogether and imagine dozens of reasons and political maneuverings that might arise from secret grudges.

Either way. High King Emeric could have found more interesting reason than just alliance with Kurog's Orsinium for the handing over of such a huge swathe of land when we consider that it almost completely isolates the already distant Kingdom of Bretons in the Druadachs.

Supreme_Atromancer

EnerG wrote: »

Eh, I greatly dislike bretons so like all the power too you if you do but that'd be a pass for me. And by greatly dislike I mean I hate them lol, theyre boring and basic to me.

People thought Dark Elves were boring DND Drow rip-offs before Kirkbride and Kuhlman came along and brought them to life. The Bretons are just waiting for some good writing.

I get why you find them boring now, though! And each to their own.

kaushad

There's a lot going on in this region. There's the Western Reach and the Forgotten Vale and Nords once settled there. There could also be Direnni, Orcish and Dwemer sites. Perhaps it could arranged as follows:

Jehanna Fjord
NPCs in Wrothgar and Western Skyrim don't have much to say about Jehanna and that's because it's a glorified fishing village. But it has a complex history involving Elves, Nords, Reachfolk, Orcs and ultimately, Bretons. The valley and surrounding waters have adequate food, wood and stone, but little else worth trading. Its king and people aren't hostile to the outside world, but they're self reliant and proud of their identity and traditions, including the veneration of figures that have become secondary in the faiths of Greater Bretony. Its knights have become capable defenders of their realm, although in practice, they mostly rely on diplomacy, acting as a buffer between their neighbours.

In the west, is the village of Cloud Spring. The village is low lying and along the Jehanna Road, while the land around the Cloud Spring itself is in the eastern Wrothgarian Mountains and used for summer pasture.

Dunlain Falls is an aspiring mining town next to the northern entrance of the Deep Road (Dunlain itself is an ancient fort in the overlooking mountains). Some of the Bretons abandoned it when the southern Jehanna Road became too dangerous, but some of those who remain have ambitions to expand underground. They've excavated passages to the Forgotten Vale and the wider Blackreach, but they need armed protection and to find something of enough value to gain sponsorship to continue their work.

Forgotten Vale
Barely accessible and possibly named something else, the mountains surrounding the Forgotten Vale split the Breton north of the region from the Reach south. I don't know if the Betrayed have over run it yet.

The Western Reach
A valley system leading into the Bjoulsae in Mournoth. Today, it's populated several Reach clans and the Orcish Murtag clan and it's dotted with Elven ruins.

The Murtag Clan stronghold is in the southeastern Wrothgarian Mountains, immediately to the west of the southern entrance to the zone. By the end of the Era, this will be Dunkarn Haven. With the support of the Daggerfall Covenant, they have been fighting to secure and complete the Jehanna Road. This puts them at odds with most local Reachfolk clans. It wasn't the start of their conflict, but they have coexisted peacefully before.

I'd consider moving Karthgran Vale east towards the Druadachs because of its name. This is a valley above and to the West of Markarth and immediately southeast of the Forgotten Vale. Geographically, it could be argued to be part of the Reach rather than the Western Reach. It's isolated and easily defended, but colder than most settled areas of either Reach, because of its altitude.

Raven Spring is also in the Western Druadach mountains, but milder, like the rest of the valleys. It is home to one of the most stable Reach clans in the area.

The Jehanna Road
This would be the road that connects Evermore to Jehanna, leading from Jackdaw Cove. The northern stretch, between Dunlain and Jehanna is intact and in regular use. The construction and use of the road in the Western Reach has been stunted by banditry for most of the century. The road's most unusual feature is between these areas. This is the Deep Road, which leads through caves under the mountains that connect the Wrothgarian and Druadach ranges in a rough cross. The passage was originally used and inhabited by Dwemer and has been found to connect to even bigger caves to the east and a vale directly above.

WiseSky

I really enjoy the Write up!
Thanks

RealJobasha

Hate to thread necro, but there's *more than plenty* of room for a full sized chapter in that sliver of land when you consider how far off the scaling of the zones are. Here's an old map borrowed from reddit. If they properly scaled it, or took liberty to make it even bigger than properly scaled, It could easily be bigger than the last three chapters were.

Maelstroa

Zo$ hates Breton lore and will not give us the Gaelic/Celtic warrior lords of the Longhouse Kings or anything of that sort.. they already made Wrothgar three times the size than it actually should be (and to the northwest of Wayrest rather than where Orsinum actually was, between Alcaire and Wayrest) and cover more ground than so much of the region that belonged to warrior clan bretons..
Despite being in that non-covered tiny sliver of zone, I doubt we will see any of the cities of Jehanna, Farrun, Dunlain, [possibly]Dunkarn or the regions of Cloudspring and Ravenspring.. Which is a cryin' shame, as they were known to be the valley and vale kings of the misty region of longhouse clans..

The Reach bretons will always be Forsworn barbarian style, despite Skyrim describing their return-to-nature look being extremists now that Markarth made them all be proto-germanic nomads.. Despite having some decent lore, Greymoor/Markarth was a story cough and whimper at best, though I would not say it was as much of a disaster as Summerset's Main Story quest..

Zos will continue to nonsensically cater to the stereotypes of brute nords, wildling reachmen, wonderbread-knight bretons and their strangely beloved Dwemer. We will continue to see Mary-Sue levels of Dwemer time-travel and inter-dimensional powers, going by what we saw in Greymoor public dungeons.. despite their influence and scope never being as large as Zo$ makes them out to be..

[Edit for minor bashing]

Aliyavana

RealJobasha wrote: »

Hate to thread necro, but there's *more than plenty* of room for a full sized chapter in that sliver of land when you consider how far off the scaling of the zones are. Here's an old map borrowed from reddit. If they properly scaled it, or took liberty to make it even bigger than properly scaled, It could easily be bigger than the last three chapters were.

this does give me hope

six2fall

New content doesnt always have to mean a new zone. I'd love for them to go back to base game zones & alter the landscapes to accommodate new content especially daggerfall that needs more breton influence

Thevampirenight

six2fall wrote: »

New content doesnt always have to mean a new zone. I'd love for them to go back to base game zones & alter the landscapes to accommodate new content especially daggerfall that needs more breton influence

Yeah that is what I think they need to do, there is a lot they can do with Bretons, and given the UESP has a lot more on their culture and stuff and has a great reference guide to everything Breton now, Zenimax can go back and use that to flesh them out. There is so much to Breton Culture and stuff, that is interesting and even religious lore they can do. Jehanna should be added in as an expansion to the Wrothgar zone, and have its own storyline elements and stuff. Making it a more Bretonish/Nordic city. Maybe Orc influence because Orcs control a lot of Wrothgar, as they could expand the Wrothgar zone to include it.

Darkstorne

RealJobasha wrote: »

Hate to thread necro, but there's *more than plenty* of room for a full sized chapter in that sliver of land when you consider how far off the scaling of the zones are. Here's an old map borrowed from reddit. If they properly scaled it, or took liberty to make it even bigger than properly scaled, It could easily be bigger than the last three chapters were.

Yes! Biggest misconception I see players make about ESO is that the map size relates to in-game size. It never has. Starting islands are all much bigger than the map would suggest, while most "large" zones are smaller than the map would suggest. Summerset Chapter was an absolute joke with how tiny that zone ended up being (can run from coast to coast in 60 seconds...) but at least they learned from that and Chapters since then have focused on a couple of cities and their surrounding areas at a time, so scales can be a bit more believable.

This is also why I have hope for a central Elsweyr Chapter/DLC one day! Two major cities in that region - Corinthe and Torval, the latter of which has the Mane's palace and is renowned for training some of the best warriors in Tamriel at its Temple of Two-Moons-Dance (Monk class? ). I imagine the reason it was ignored so far is because it's so heavily forested, and this engine really really seems to struggle with rendering a lot of trees (poor Blackwood... ), but perhaps with the success of the recent multi-threaded update, and continued work on that area, dense tree cover will be possible in ESO one day?