Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.
Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.
On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.
Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.
Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
furiouslog wrote: »Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.
All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.
I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.
Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.
On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.
Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.
I can only speak from experience of running with people who could dish good damage, but for example, refused to crouch during the seeking phase of the indrik fight for MOS, or refused to free trapped players from the bolts. This happened in two different runs, 4 different players, all did good DPS (stuff melted fast) but when it came to mechanics that could not be skipped via DPS, they ended up dead and had to be rezzed.
This is a real thing I have experienced merely a week ago. They may be good with dealing damage, but they just refused to follow mechanics no matter how many times me and the healer explained.
If you want to believe it doesn't exist, then go ahead? I can't stop you. I personally do not watch any streamers or anything so my opinions and experiences are 100% personal real encounters.
I don't play DPS in group content so I do not have any 'horse' in this race.
furiouslog wrote: »Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.
All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.
I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.
Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.
On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.
Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.
Are you asking "would you rather know how to do mechanics or how to deal damage"?
Because I'd prefer doing both.
It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?
That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)
ThePianist wrote: »I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.
Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.
On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.
Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.
[snip]
This is an example. I’m not particularly pointing out that this person is the 100k dps, I don’t know them.
As an example, this is what I see in my point of view when it comes to dps awareness. That dps had really good burn throughout the dungeon even though we were lacking 1 other dps.
I’ve been tanking since 25k dps Vmol was a thing, when I used to be on PC. You may disagree of what the person above you said about dps contention. But as a tank, I agree with him. I have seen many self proclaimed 100k dps, perform really bad on a live fight. It all comes down to lack of awareness and the unwillingness to cooperate.
One of the many responsibilities of a tank, is to call out mechanics. Dps and healers shouldn’t be over talking the tanks in boss fights, unless there’s new people or new tanks that have not been in that dungeon or trial. When I say block, block. When I say dodge roll, dodge roll. When I say turn and burn, turn the f around, and burn. Soft stack, hard stack, res the healer, res the other tank, bring the ads to the tank, ect...
No amount of cheese or dps burn will be enough to skip mechanics. King Narilmor in Malatar for example, it’s good that you can’t stack him anymore. Complete the content, the proper way.
Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?
That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)
In my personal, purely anecdotal experience, it is common. Every progression group I have ever been a part of has had at least one dps who parsed big numbers but was a liability in actual content. Every. Single. One.
To be sure, this would still make these people a minority compared those who parse well and play well, but they are common enough to be a nuisance.
So please stop using the term strawman to dismiss people's experiences. Both because their experiences are likely real, and also because even if they weren't these wouldn't be examples of a strawman fallacy and you'd still be using the term incorrectly.
ThePianist wrote: »
No amount of cheese or dps burn will be enough to skip mechanics. King Narilmor in Malatar for example, it’s good that you can’t stack him anymore. Complete the content, the proper way.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?
That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)
In my personal, purely anecdotal experience, it is common. Every progression group I have ever been a part of has had at least one dps who parsed big numbers but was a liability in actual content. Every. Single. One.
To be sure, this would still make these people a minority compared those who parse well and play well, but they are common enough to be a nuisance.
So please stop using the term strawman to dismiss people's experiences. Both because their experiences are likely real, and also because even if they weren't these wouldn't be examples of a strawman fallacy and you'd still be using the term incorrectly.
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
furiouslog wrote: »Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.
Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.
So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.
This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.
I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.
It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.
All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.
It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?
That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)
Note - as stated in prior post above, I do believe there are a lot of players in avg or less parse, maybe even ‘good’ parse territory, who really aren’t anywhere as skilled on mechs. But it is IMO a false narrative to label this as 100k+ for exaggeration effect. My personal opinion is there are virtually zero players in this category. Under 85k, sure. Players that can achieve 100k+? So few it counts as a strawman to suggest it is the norm.
I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.
See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.
Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.
On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.
Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.
I can only speak from experience of running with people who could dish good damage, but for example, refused to crouch during the seeking phase of the indrik fight for MOS, or refused to free trapped players from the bolts. This happened in two different runs, 4 different players, all did good DPS (stuff melted fast) but when it came to mechanics that could not be skipped via DPS, they ended up dead and had to be rezzed.
This is a real thing I have experienced merely a week ago. They may be good with dealing damage, but they just refused to follow mechanics no matter how many times me and the healer explained.
If you want to believe it doesn't exist, then go ahead? I can't stop you. I personally do not watch any streamers or anything so my opinions and experiences are 100% personal real encounters.
I don't play DPS in group content so I do not have any 'horse' in this race.
What you are describing are toxic players. Not doing fights properly or helping your group mates because they want to be d-bags has no relation to the argument 100k players can’t learn or do real fight mechanics.
Not doing mechs is not the same as unable to do mechs, which is the false narrative.
Put another way, anyone regardless of parse can decide to be toxic and not give a poop about helping the group and causing a bad or even failed run. Ignoring trapped players, etc are not mutually exclusive from being skilled players. Sadly, the world is full of people with high skill but bad attitudes.
This doesn’t make them fake dps, just as a real tank with good gear, skills, etc who decides to train run the entire zone taunt nothing along run, and leave group behind to die isn’t a fake tank - he’s just a d**k
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
ThoughtRaven wrote: »
Sorry my error, not OP but coop500 who is the one I replied to - he stated ‘100k leet dps’ to which I disagreed and said why, then your reply, etc snowball from there.
Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?
I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?
Personally as I’ve said multiple times, I believe ppl are confusing players with merely decent parses or exaggerating for effect 100k or whatever really high parse that fits whatever patch top-top end min max skill.
Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?
I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?
Just think about, what would your choose will be ? If you can only choose one.
I chose to be good DD and fake DPS on dummy