Be or not to be ? Fake DD, but good dummy DPS, or good DD, but fake dummy DPS ?

AyaDark

Just think about, what would your choose will be ? If you can only choose one.

I chose to be good DD and fake DPS on dummy

https://youtu.be/RP_fPtXjQ3g

https://youtu.be/BamTtY7w5Sg

https://youtu.be/kpPgpGApdDE

Naftal

Are you asking "would you rather know how to do mechanics or how to deal damage"?

Because I'd prefer doing both.

AyaDark

Naftal wrote: »

Are you asking "would you rather know how to do mechanics or how to deal damage"?

Because I'd prefer doing both.

It is hard to do both if for doing more dps and need in doing mechanics you have no sloted healing

Brrrofski

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

Naftal

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

coop500

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

Jacozilla

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

coop500

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

I can only speak from experience of running with people who could dish good damage, but for example, refused to crouch during the seeking phase of the indrik fight for MOS, or refused to free trapped players from the bolts. This happened in two different runs, 4 different players, all did good DPS (stuff melted fast) but when it came to mechanics that could not be skipped via DPS, they ended up dead and had to be rezzed.

This is a real thing I have experienced merely a week ago. They may be good with dealing damage, but they just refused to follow mechanics no matter how many times me and the healer explained.

If you want to believe it doesn't exist, then go ahead? I can't stop you. I personally do not watch any streamers or anything so my opinions and experiences are 100% personal real encounters.

I don't play DPS in group content so I do not have any 'horse' in this race.

furiouslog

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.

All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.

Naftal

furiouslog wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.

All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.

Yeah I know what's real but it's not presented like that ever. It is presented as a strawman.

Also stamplar rotation is three abilities and an ulti. Not exactly something that requires a lot to do near optimal level.

Jacozilla

coop500 wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

I can only speak from experience of running with people who could dish good damage, but for example, refused to crouch during the seeking phase of the indrik fight for MOS, or refused to free trapped players from the bolts. This happened in two different runs, 4 different players, all did good DPS (stuff melted fast) but when it came to mechanics that could not be skipped via DPS, they ended up dead and had to be rezzed.

This is a real thing I have experienced merely a week ago. They may be good with dealing damage, but they just refused to follow mechanics no matter how many times me and the healer explained.

If you want to believe it doesn't exist, then go ahead? I can't stop you. I personally do not watch any streamers or anything so my opinions and experiences are 100% personal real encounters.

I don't play DPS in group content so I do not have any 'horse' in this race.

What you are describing are toxic players. Not doing fights properly or helping your group mates because they want to be d-bags has no relation to the argument 100k players can’t learn or do real fight mechanics.

Not doing mechs is not the same as unable to do mechs, which is the false narrative.

Put another way, anyone regardless of parse can decide to be toxic and not give a poop about helping the group and causing a bad or even failed run. Ignoring trapped players, etc are not mutually exclusive from being skilled players. Sadly, the world is full of people with high skill but bad attitudes.

This doesn’t make them fake dps, just as a real tank with good gear, skills, etc who decides to train run the entire zone taunt nothing along run, and leave group behind to die isn’t a fake tank - he’s just a [Snip].

[Edited for profanity bypass]

Jacozilla

furiouslog wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.

All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.

It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?

That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)

Note - as stated in prior post above, I do believe there are a lot of players in avg or less parse, maybe even ‘good’ parse territory, who really aren’t anywhere as skilled on mechs. But it is IMO a false narrative to label this as 100k+ for exaggeration effect. My personal opinion is there are virtually zero players in this category. Under 85k, sure. Players that can achieve 100k+? So few it counts as a strawman to suggest it is the norm.

ThePianist

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

[snip]

This is an example. I’m not particularly pointing out that this person is the 100k dps, I don’t know them.
As an example, this is what I see in my point of view when it comes to dps awareness. That dps had really good burn throughout the dungeon even though we were lacking 1 other dps.

I’ve been tanking since 25k dps Vmol was a thing, when I used to be on PC. You may disagree of what the person above you said about dps contention. But as a tank, I agree with him. I have seen many self proclaimed 100k dps, perform really bad on a live fight. It all comes down to lack of awareness and the unwillingness to cooperate.

One of the many responsibilities of a tank, is to call out mechanics. Dps and healers shouldn’t be over talking the tanks in boss fights, unless there’s new people or new tanks that have not been in that dungeon or trial. When I say block, block. When I say dodge roll, dodge roll. When I say turn and burn, turn the f around, and burn. Soft stack, hard stack, res the healer, res the other tank, bring the ads to the tank, ect...

No amount of cheese or dps burn will be enough to skip mechanics. King Narilmor in Malatar for example, it’s good that you can’t stack him anymore. Complete the content, the proper way.

[Edited to remove Naming and Shaming]

Amottica

Naftal wrote: »

Are you asking "would you rather know how to do mechanics or how to deal damage"?

Because I'd prefer doing both.

I agree and it is the same with any MMORPG.

Though I will say one needs to actually know their rotation to the point it is instinct to allow them to notice queues in fights. With that, they will learn changes in the fight allowing them to further optimize their damage while in a real fight.

So the answer is a player that has put the time in to learn how to play well can and will do both.

WrathOfInnos

I’m sure there are players that can do good damage on a dummy, but have trouble repeating this on bosses with mechanics. I’ve seen this a few times, for various reasons (stands in red and dies, dodges or shields when they could just tap block, thinks Daedric Tomb hits trial bosses reliably, etc.)

I don’t believe the opposite exists though. Anyone that is able to deal good damage while reacting to boss mechanics should have no trouble with a target dummy.

ThoughtRaven

Jacozilla wrote: »

It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?

That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)

In my personal, purely anecdotal experience, it is common. Every progression group I have ever been a part of has had at least one dps who parsed big numbers but was a liability in actual content. Every. Single. One.

To be sure, this would still make these people a minority compared those who parse well and play well, but they are common enough to be a nuisance.

So please stop using the term strawman to dismiss people's experiences. Both because their experiences are likely real, and also because even if they weren't these wouldn't be examples of a strawman fallacy and you'd still be using the term incorrectly.

Soulshine

ThePianist wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

[snip]

This is an example. I’m not particularly pointing out that this person is the 100k dps, I don’t know them.
As an example, this is what I see in my point of view when it comes to dps awareness. That dps had really good burn throughout the dungeon even though we were lacking 1 other dps.

I’ve been tanking since 25k dps Vmol was a thing, when I used to be on PC. You may disagree of what the person above you said about dps contention. But as a tank, I agree with him. I have seen many self proclaimed 100k dps, perform really bad on a live fight. It all comes down to lack of awareness and the unwillingness to cooperate.

One of the many responsibilities of a tank, is to call out mechanics. Dps and healers shouldn’t be over talking the tanks in boss fights, unless there’s new people or new tanks that have not been in that dungeon or trial. When I say block, block. When I say dodge roll, dodge roll. When I say turn and burn, turn the f around, and burn. Soft stack, hard stack, res the healer, res the other tank, bring the ads to the tank, ect...

No amount of cheese or dps burn will be enough to skip mechanics. King Narilmor in Malatar for example, it’s good that you can’t stack him anymore. Complete the content, the proper way.

I would point out one thing: If you are so rigid as to not allow anyone else to contribute information in your runs, then this can easily be a trigger point for "bad behaviour," since I have seen this happen many times as well.

As a healer in this game since beta, I have come across more tanks than I can count that do not know how to explain things correctly, let alone explain at all despite wanting to claim the director's chair. I have had to step in and add information in a lot of situations, so as to avoid unnecessary confusion, since one of the advantages of being a healer is having the bird's eye view of the entire team - something which many less skilled tanks lose when focusing solely on boss in their face.

There needs to be middle ground. If DPS feels like you are just leading them around by the nose, then I would not expect good results. At the end of the day, beating difficult content is all about team work. If you make everyone feel part of the effort instead of a means to an end, you will get better results. Treat DPS like tools, they will behave accordingly. At least that is my experience.

Brrrofski

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

I haven't done a dummy parse in like 2 years.

I don't care about that. Don't do many trials as I don't enjoy standing there pressing the same 6 buttons over and over for 3 minutes, and complete new hardmode dungeons with ease.

But there is validity to DPS dummies. If you can't pull 50k dps on a dummy, you'll pull very low DPS in a trial environment with mechanics. It is what it is.

Jacozilla

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?

That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)

In my personal, purely anecdotal experience, it is common. Every progression group I have ever been a part of has had at least one dps who parsed big numbers but was a liability in actual content. Every. Single. One.

To be sure, this would still make these people a minority compared those who parse well and play well, but they are common enough to be a nuisance.

So please stop using the term strawman to dismiss people's experiences. Both because their experiences are likely real, and also because even if they weren't these wouldn't be examples of a strawman fallacy and you'd still be using the term incorrectly.

Well we will politely agree to disagree. Because I don’t believe it is common at all for 100k+ players to be in this category. [snip]

And I dismissed no ones experience - what I said was 100k players for great majority, aside few rare unicorns bc exceptions always exist, don’t IMO fit the narrative.

As I’ve repeatedly said though, I do believe there are avg dps parse ppl who easily fall into this label. Perhaps even ‘good’ tier parsers, call it 85k and under. But to achieve 100k+ In current patch, you need to squeeze every bit of min max bleeding edge technique - very very few players IMO that can do this somehow fail to learn basic dungeon and trial mechs.

[snip]

Note - also not to be confused is someone doing 100k+ in a short dungeon fight with a full 21mil atro parse. Anyone can land a destro on trash pack for 10sec 100k+ parse. The claim OP made was re: 100k dummy parse ppl, which are a tiny, tiny fraction of the player base.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

zvavi

ThePianist wrote: »

No amount of cheese or dps burn will be enough to skip mechanics. King Narilmor in Malatar for example, it’s good that you can’t stack him anymore. Complete the content, the proper way.

1. in strong groups, I do exactly that, we ignore all other 3 copies and just burn the right one, with 1 dd slotting purge to cleanse the maim debuff.
2. in weak groups, I stuck the king. takes me less than 10 seconds. because else, they dont have the damage to burn through 4 300k shields separately in 40 seconds intervals, even if the healer protects them from the maim.

Agenericname

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?

That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)

In my personal, purely anecdotal experience, it is common. Every progression group I have ever been a part of has had at least one dps who parsed big numbers but was a liability in actual content. Every. Single. One.

To be sure, this would still make these people a minority compared those who parse well and play well, but they are common enough to be a nuisance.

So please stop using the term strawman to dismiss people's experiences. Both because their experiences are likely real, and also because even if they weren't these wouldn't be examples of a strawman fallacy and you'd still be using the term incorrectly.

Its more of a false dichotomy really. Being good at one doesnt prevent you from being good at the other.

Im sure it happens. When it happens, I see it more as a players personal journey, and they just havent gotten to the place where they can do both yet. Presenting it as such is presenting it as a choice that nobody should want to make much less forced to make.

Jacozilla

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]

I don’t believe common at all for 100k atro parsers as OP stated to be fake dps, you do believe it is common. This is something two people can disagree on, fair enough.

As pointed out repeatedly, I believe there are easily many ppl w/ decent dps parse or less that fit this narrative - but not those in the bleeding edge, very tiny fraction of player base that can achieve 100k+ in current patch. The issue isn’t me dismissing anything - I’ve said the scenario is real, the issue is falsely labeling it for exaggeration as 100k players fitting this niche - that is the false strawman.

What you are then incorrectly doing, is because your basic assumption is different than mine, saying I am using strawman incorrectly. What you are really saying is you - in your opinion - don’t believe this is a strawman, not whether the label is used correctly.

[snip]

[Edited too remove Baiting]

TwiceBornStar

I choose to be laidback, patient and whatever I'm doing, I'm always doing my best. It's a game. It's cool to try something else or even screw up from time to time. (Just don't screw up all the time?) I mean, sometimes a little bit of failure gives you a sense of accomplishment when you finally manage to beat something as a team. All these YouTube heroes? You think they never screw up? That's why I like Deltia. He's mature enough to show you his ups.. and downs.

I mean, I have plenty of respect for players who are skillful, and players who are clever about their builds or their tactics, just don't pretend to be something you're not. We're all nerds down here. There are plenty of hasbeens and cool kids too, who are still just as nerdy inside! It's okay to be a nerd and to love Elder Scrolls. It's not okay to be a D to your fellow nerds and pretend to be something special or superhuman. You've got a character on a server. That character isn't you. Okay? Get it? It's a game!

So. We're all nerds. We're all in the same boat. We all like this game. So why be a D to anyone? Because you think you're ''better''? Better at what? At mashing a few buttons on your gamepad or keyboard? You're ''better'' because you've done a Dungeon a 100 times and someone else hasn't? Really?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not frustrated and I'm quite a happy person. (Maybe a bit crazy, but happy nonetheless!) I'm also the last person to hop on this forum and proclaim himself to be a top-tier player. I can get creative with builds, sure, and I know some of you have copied one or two of those and posted them on YouTube, but I don't mind. To me that's just a compliment. What I'm trying to accomplish with posts like these? I guess I'm *trying* to school some people in this community about life in general, because it seems that some people take themselves way too serious. And I mean, waaaaaaaaaay too serious. (Why so seriousssssss!?)

It's a game. You're a nerd. I'm a nerd. Life's hard enough for us already. So be nice. How hard can it be? Good evening! How are you? I'm fine, thank you!

*anxious to get back into the game*

Tessitura

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

[snip] People do exist like this, maybe not in actual practice but in mentality. They will quote high dps videos they see, usually parses, and act like that means they know what they are talking about. Proceed to say it's everyone else's fault when the fight goes to hell.

This is a problem I see in this game more then any other, it's kind of baffling to me. I am not sure where it comes from either, I guess just all the high parse videos out there and the fact that you can skip some mechanics with burn makes people think they gotta be that good or they are not good at all? Regardless of how this mentality manifests, it 100% is there and is common enough to warrant mockery if you ask me.

[snip] No offense to OP, your videos were nice.

I should mention I only see this in PUG groups. Pre-mades I tend to never see this behavior.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

furiouslog

Jacozilla wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well the idea is, the higher your DPS on a dummy, the more confident you are with a rotation.

Nobody expects that DPS in a trial, but the more comfortable you are with a rotation, the higher the chance of you keeping to it as much as possible while doing mechanics.

So I'm not sure what you're even getting at tbh.

This is just another jab against the strawman of a player who only parses against dummy with a dummy parsing build but for some reason doesn't use a build X for doing content X.

I feel like some people use this strawman to make themselves feel better about not doing good damage. I don't know why people want to keep this strawman of a player that doesn't exist still alive. There's at least one big streaming content creator who continuously speaks against dummy dps and I feel like is a big reason why this mentality and threads like this exist.

It's not really about builds. I have seen many DPS who can parse go into a trial and completely fail due to poor mitigation and bad mechanics. A stamplar I know can do 90K+ on the dummy, but when we did vSS, they died 37 times during the trial and pushed out about 19K. I think that this is the point of the OP. They were using the same gear/stat build, with a few skills swapped out and dubious food instead of parse food, but ended up being completely ineffective to the point where it hurt the entire team.

All the dummy does is confirm that you've researched your class enough to understand how to max DPS for that specific situation, and that you can optimally execute a static rotation. That competence should be associated with practical competence, but it's not always so. That is not a strawman. It's real.

It’s only real if you allege that this is common though, instead of highly uncommon. So let us be very clear as I don’t wish to put words in your mouth - are you indeed saying this scenario is common enough to support the narrative?

That it isn’t the rare unicorn case now and then of someone skilled enough to achieve the bleeding edge of upper end parsing, which involves depth of skill similar to learning any mechanic, but somehow can’t learn basic fight and trial mechs? (not won’t, but can’t - see above re ppl just being d-bags, that is less about skill than just toxicity)

Note - as stated in prior post above, I do believe there are a lot of players in avg or less parse, maybe even ‘good’ parse territory, who really aren’t anywhere as skilled on mechs. But it is IMO a false narrative to label this as 100k+ for exaggeration effect. My personal opinion is there are virtually zero players in this category. Under 85k, sure. Players that can achieve 100k+? So few it counts as a strawman to suggest it is the norm.

I can't speak to how common this situation is broadly, but I run a social guild with a buddy, and I manage our DPS tagging. It's a 5 scale. 80K is considered adequate for our more challenging vet prog groups. We also require vMA clears as a gate for the higher tiers to ensure that whoever is running has learned their character to the point that they can get it through vMA all alone. You can not blame anyone else for a mistake, and there is no one to compensate for your lack of understanding of mechanics. Before that was implemented, based on experience from other guilds who did not have this requirement, I'd say about 30-40% of the strong parsers struggled in vet trials and took months to get to where they were net contributors. Many of those kind of players get discouraged because they know they are dragging the team, and end up dropping out.

After adding vMA, it's maybe 10% or so, but some of that could also be due to the CP changes and how ZOS handled damage mitigation. Someone can parse well and actually do decent DPS in real combat but they also end up being a glass cannon if their CP is low and they are loading the damage over mitigation - and it's not just mechanics. The heals they get are lower and normally survivable dot ticks are higher. We're changing requirements so that the damage mitigation part of the tree needs to be maxed out for the parse to count in the next patch for the higher tier DPS tags.

We used to have various trial and DLC dungeon clears as a requirement, but those proved ineffective since you can buy carries, or maybe people just got carried by some pals or got in a strong pug. We got rid of them entirely to open up the player stable, but kept the vMA requirement in.

You can memorize and time your weaving and rotation while sitting still and do pretty well with gear you'd never use in a trial. You can spend a whole week doing mediocre parses and then have one star, and then that gets submitted as proof of competence. People also cheat by prebuffing, which we have to look for thanks to one guy who thought that he was being pretty clever until he got into vMOL, and questions started to get asked. The moment you have to apply that same skillset while thinking more, moving, and reacting to situations, even if you are aware of them, it can adversely affect your DPS performance. Dummy humping is probably strongly correlated with trial performance, but it's definitely no guarantee that if you're good at dummies, you'll be able to succeed in trials.

Sometimes there is also just weird stuff. FWIW I main magplar, and for some reason I can fire an LA/ritual, LA/spear, LA/PL just fine when parsing, but in trials those same skills misfire constantly. Not to mention the weird HA animation when you do beam. Fix templar, ZOS.

kargen27

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I see what the OP is addressing, I've dealt with it in a number of occasions. L33T DPS that can pull 100K on a trial dummy, but REFUSED to follow mechanics and just died, or got me killed, making the run longer than if they were average DPS but actually LISTENED when I explain mechanics and not just ignore it.

See strawman post above. This is good example of a strawman false narrative.

Are there at least one player who can hit 100k+ on atro parse but have no clue on mechanics that they are this mythical ‘fake dd’? Possible sure, but highly improbable. And if exist, very very few players would be in this niche.

On other hand, there are a great many players who only have avg or less dps on parse dummy that fail real fights for number of reasons, including lack of mechanics knowledge, ability to execute the mechanics even if they have the knowledge.

Your contention is there are 100k+ players on dummy who are so bad at real fights they are essentially fake dps. That these high dps on dummy only players aren’t just a rare unicorn, but common enough to support the narrative. Sorry, I disagree. The vast majority of players who can learn and practice all the mechanics of parsing to the tiniest detail so they can achieve the bleeding edge of upper end dps are rarely unable to somehow learn basic fight mechanics.

I can only speak from experience of running with people who could dish good damage, but for example, refused to crouch during the seeking phase of the indrik fight for MOS, or refused to free trapped players from the bolts. This happened in two different runs, 4 different players, all did good DPS (stuff melted fast) but when it came to mechanics that could not be skipped via DPS, they ended up dead and had to be rezzed.

This is a real thing I have experienced merely a week ago. They may be good with dealing damage, but they just refused to follow mechanics no matter how many times me and the healer explained.

If you want to believe it doesn't exist, then go ahead? I can't stop you. I personally do not watch any streamers or anything so my opinions and experiences are 100% personal real encounters.

I don't play DPS in group content so I do not have any 'horse' in this race.

What you are describing are toxic players. Not doing fights properly or helping your group mates because they want to be d-bags has no relation to the argument 100k players can’t learn or do real fight mechanics.

Not doing mechs is not the same as unable to do mechs, which is the false narrative.

Put another way, anyone regardless of parse can decide to be toxic and not give a poop about helping the group and causing a bad or even failed run. Ignoring trapped players, etc are not mutually exclusive from being skilled players. Sadly, the world is full of people with high skill but bad attitudes.

This doesn’t make them fake dps, just as a real tank with good gear, skills, etc who decides to train run the entire zone taunt nothing along run, and leave group behind to die isn’t a fake tank - he’s just a d**k

You are arguing an either/or and all or nothing argument when others are not. The argument is that there are players that can parse at high levels but for whatever reason do not perform well in group combat. Not once did anyone suggest "100k players can’t learn or do real fight mechanics". That is something you tried to bring to the discussion. What the OP is saying is given the choice of high dummy parse or good awareness in dungeons/trials they will go with the good awareness.

Nobody is saying players can't be both. Many players hit high parses and execute well in groups. This isn't about them nor about what percentage of the player base they represent.

I wouldn't call it fake DPS when understanding mechanics is what is lacking. My opinion it is sometimes worse than being fake DPS. Some people who really work on their parses will refuse to do anything in group that affects their final DPS numbers. They have a tunnel vision view of what they should be doing in the group.

A guild I am in we are progressing Cloudrest now. We have players that have never completed the vet level and for our group mechanics is everything. We had two players that wouldn't rez at all. They ignored the balls, wouldn't send shards down even if one spawned right near them and ignored a few other things we need the entire group to do because it interfered with their rotation. The leader of the progression team started giving them other things to do. Kite the boss jump and things like that. Eventually they have come around and realized their high DPS numbers aren't as much a help to the group as all the other stuff they are asked to do.

We do have other groups that would allow them to mostly concentrate on the DPS as the entire group has all kinds of experience and clears. We all know what needs done and can compensate some to allow a few to DPS hard only. Our progression group isn't that though as is probably the case with the majority of groups scattered throughout the game. For most an understanding of and a willingness to do the mechanics is preferred and even needed over high DPS.

Jacozilla

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

I don’t believe it is common at all for 100k atro parsers as OP stated to be fake dps, you do believe it is common. This is something two people can disagree on, fair enough.

[Quoted post was removed]

Sorry my error, not OP but coop500 who is the one I replied to - he stated ‘100k leet dps’ to which I disagreed and said why, then your reply, etc snowball from there.

Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?

I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?

Personally as I’ve said multiple times, I believe ppl are confusing players with merely decent parses or exaggerating for effect 100k or whatever really high parse that fits whatever patch top-top end min max skill.

kargen27

Jacozilla wrote: »

ThoughtRaven wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

I don’t believe it is common at all for 100k atro parsers as OP stated to be fake dps, you do believe it is common. This is something two people can disagree on, fair enough.

[Quoted post was removed]

Sorry my error, not OP but coop500 who is the one I replied to - he stated ‘100k leet dps’ to which I disagreed and said why, then your reply, etc snowball from there.

Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?

I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?

Personally as I’ve said multiple times, I believe ppl are confusing players with merely decent parses or exaggerating for effect 100k or whatever really high parse that fits whatever patch top-top end min max skill.

yeah coop500 mentioned 100k DPS but did not claim all 100k DPS behave in that manner. He said he preferred lower DPS that knew and did mechanics to higher DPS that ignored mechanics and group dynamics. You seem caught up on the 100k number. The actual DPS done doesn't matter for the point being made. They point being made is people would prefer to have players that execute the mechanics rather than players that only hit high DPS on dummies and ignore all else in group.

Personal opinion here but I think there is a great number of players in game that give more significance to high parses on dummies than they should. Some of those players (and I think these numbers are low) to the point they ignore all else. Because they can hit really high numbers they assume the group wipe must have been the fault of others. I also think the problem of ignoring mechanics is more prevalent in high DPS players than others because they are better able to ignore mechanics in the easier content.

It is amazing how many times in training runs for trials we will be explaining mechanics and a player will say we can just burn this. Yeah we can on normal but that isn't what the training run is about. We sometimes slow the DPS down so the mechanics have to happen. More often than not the players that say just burn this are the ones that are being rezzed when we finally go to the vet version of the trial.

ThoughtRaven

Jacozilla wrote: »

Let me ask another question - how can it be common for 100k or whatever parse you want to define as extremely upper end when that proportion of the user base is so incredibly small? E.g. how can an uncommonly small percentage be what you call common enough to fit this narrative?

I’ve no stats so wont pretend to make up numbers, but whether 100k+ is fraction of a percent or some few percent like 1-3%, unless you think 100k parsers are common, how can you have what amounts to an extremely uncommon fraction of player population be common enough to say this is usual enough for the thread narrative to be true?

I'm going to be honest, your wording here is all over the place and I am not 100% sure what you are asking. I'm going to do my best to respond in good faith.

What I think you are asking is: how can big number parsers who fail at mechanics be common, when the percentage of the playerbase that hits big numbers is already very small?

So that is what I will be responding to.

My answer to that is that "common" like many terms can be used relatively just as it can be used absolutely. (And only a Sith deals in absolutes)

The truly "end game" community of people who parse big and participate in vet dlc trials is very small and insular. But a certain type of player can be relatively common enough to be a nuisance within that community , while still being both a minority within that community, and vanishingly small in the absolute context of the total playerbase.

pelle412

AyaDark wrote: »

Just think about, what would your choose will be ? If you can only choose one.

I chose to be good DD and fake DPS on dummy

I choose to be a good DD in content and on dummy. I choose to both eat and drink. Threads like these are only posted about people who are unable to deliver a solid DPS parse, inventing the "high DD parser" who can't do anything in real content. My experience is, after playing with 1000 DD players, that if you can deliver on the dummy, you're also more likely to deliver in real content.

Everest_Lionheart

I worry more about the person that got that lucky 80K parse and sent it in than anything. I send in my 80K parse with a screenshot of my chat window for the last 5-6 to show that I actually hit my numbers. That gives my raid leads a lot more confidence that I have mastered my build and that I am a true 80K hitter. 6 in a row at 79-80K means a lot more.

When it comes to content the groups I run with there is minimal communication because we are looking out for mechs. Communicate when needed. My vCR3 prog is like that, no fire fallouts except by kite healer, no ice fallouts because the people responsible are responsible. Orb called only when sub needed, same for portal. It’s very focused.

So final verdict, why be good at one or the other when you can be good at both?