Performance..."We're Starting to Make Significant Progress"

The_Lex · May 2021

Improving in-game performance has been a huge focus for us and we’re starting to make significant progress towards our goal

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/572676/pts-patch-notes-v7-0-2#2

Umm...really?

Then, what's the goal? In what content are you seeing "significant progress"? Honest questions, here, because I'm definitely not seeing what you're seeing.

Amottica · May 2021

Where did you see that comment? Who said it?

I am sure some may recognize it but as it stands it is without the context of the statement it was part of.

The_Lex · May 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Where did you see that comment? Who said it?

I am sure some may recognize it but as it stands it is without the context of the statement it was part of.

In the patch notes. I'll edit it with a link.

erliesc · May 2021

Last small update crapped out the mouse rotation speed...can't seem to harvest anything unless pointing north (sometimes)..mount changes direction when trying to dismount...

MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS.....?

NOTE: cleaned mouse and put in new batteries. Problem solved... Wasn't the games fault this time...but watch out...I'm keeping an eye on you dudes...

DarcyMardin · May 2021

Also wondering.

WoppaBoem · May 2021

...

The_Lex · May 2021

DarcyMardin wrote: »

Also wondering.

I think we'll probably be left wondering.

WySoSirius · May 2021

Maybe they forgot?

Gythral · May 2021

roflmao...

The_Lex · May 2021

Gythral wrote: »

roflmao...

It's kind of a meme at this point

VaranisArano · May 2021

I confess I'm confused as to how you go through the entire development process for Companions, put that feature in all your marketing, release it on PTS, and only then hit the point when you realize "Wait, if everyone equips their companion in the Alikr Dolmen train, this tanks our performance."

Like, I'm not a Dev, but seriously, maybe they need to hire more in-house playtesters if they genuinely didn't realize that masses of Companions were going to be a hit to server/client rendering prior to the PTS.

I know I've been making up short fic about the immersion issues of having 20 of the same companion hangng out in the same area, but I'm beyond disappointed that the Devs' response appears to be that they didn't even consider that, and worse they didn't evaluate the performance impact of having 20+ companions in the same area. Now, they have to consider going back on what was advertised - make no mistake, if they have to despawn companions in cities for the sake of performance, then that is a substantial downgrade in companion usefullness.

It just seems like a failure of Quality Assurance 101 to me. If performance was such a priority, I would have expected that Companions would be designed to fit in the current performance demand from the beginning, rather than subject to a PTS Week 3 "Oops, we gotta test downgrading Companions so they don't downgrade performance" series of tests.

dcam86b14_ESO · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I'm confused as to how you go through the entire development process for Companions, put that feature in all your marketing, release it on PTS, and only then hit the point when you realize "Wait, if everyone equips their companion in the Alikr Dolmen train, this tanks our performance."

Like, I'm not a Dev, but seriously, maybe they need to hire more in-house playtesters if they genuinely didn't realize that masses of Companions were going to be a hit to server/client rendering prior to the PTS.

I know I've been making up short fic about the immersion issues of having 20 of the same companion hangng out in the same area, but I'm beyond disappointed that the Devs' response appears to be that they didn't even consider that, and worse they didn't evaluate the performance impact of having 20+ companions in the same area. Now, they have to consider going back on what was advertised - make no mistake, if they have to despawn companions in cities for the sake of performance, then that is a substantial downgrade in companion usefullness.

It just seems like a failure of Quality Assurance 101 to me. If performance was such a priority, I would have expected that Companions would be designed to fit in the current performance demand from the beginning, rather than subject to a PTS Week 3 "Oops, we gotta test downgrading Companions so they don't downgrade performance" series of tests.

I dont see how that makes companions useless? Since the only reason, you'll have them is for combat anyway.

The_Lex · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I'm confused as to how you go through the entire development process for Companions, put that feature in all your marketing, release it on PTS, and only then hit the point when you realize "Wait, if everyone equips their companion in the Alikr Dolmen train, this tanks our performance."

Like, I'm not a Dev, but seriously, maybe they need to hire more in-house playtesters if they genuinely didn't realize that masses of Companions were going to be a hit to server/client rendering prior to the PTS.

I know I've been making up short fic about the immersion issues of having 20 of the same companion hangng out in the same area, but I'm beyond disappointed that the Devs' response appears to be that they didn't even consider that, and worse they didn't evaluate the performance impact of having 20+ companions in the same area. Now, they have to consider going back on what was advertised - make no mistake, if they have to despawn companions in cities for the sake of performance, then that is a substantial downgrade in companion usefullness.

It just seems like a failure of Quality Assurance 101 to me. If performance was such a priority, I would have expected that Companions would be designed to fit in the current performance demand from the beginning, rather than subject to a PTS Week 3 "Oops, we gotta test downgrading Companions so they don't downgrade performance" series of tests.

Very well said. I'm not a developer, but it seems to me that the issues are multi-faceted:

1) A lack of serious regression testing.

Problems can arise whenever new code is added to old code. Regression testing helps to identify if the old code (or the new code) is affected. Also, this patchwork of old and new code probably creates the need to rewrite code every 5 or so years.

2) A lack of foresight as to how new systems will affect performance (the point you were making).

You comment above drives this point home. It's unreal how they could not have thought that performance would be negatively affected by the addition of companions in certain areas/content of the game. You don't even have to be developer...just basic logical thinking.

3) A lack of commitment and/or authority to allocate the resources necessary to fix the game.

I suspect this is a significant factor.

scorpius2k1 · May 2021

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7241272/#Comment_7241272

Seems like a good time to you know...address the combat pet issue too maybe?

colossalvoids · May 2021

I actually believe that new update might bring some more performance and stability overall BUT it will have companions that will surely reduce overall performance even more than we have it now, so GG well played on us.

VaranisArano · May 2021

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I confess I'm confused as to how you go through the entire development process for Companions, put that feature in all your marketing, release it on PTS, and only then hit the point when you realize "Wait, if everyone equips their companion in the Alikr Dolmen train, this tanks our performance."

Like, I'm not a Dev, but seriously, maybe they need to hire more in-house playtesters if they genuinely didn't realize that masses of Companions were going to be a hit to server/client rendering prior to the PTS.

I know I've been making up short fic about the immersion issues of having 20 of the same companion hangng out in the same area, but I'm beyond disappointed that the Devs' response appears to be that they didn't even consider that, and worse they didn't evaluate the performance impact of having 20+ companions in the same area. Now, they have to consider going back on what was advertised - make no mistake, if they have to despawn companions in cities for the sake of performance, then that is a substantial downgrade in companion usefullness.

It just seems like a failure of Quality Assurance 101 to me. If performance was such a priority, I would have expected that Companions would be designed to fit in the current performance demand from the beginning, rather than subject to a PTS Week 3 "Oops, we gotta test downgrading Companions so they don't downgrade performance" series of tests.

I dont see how that makes companions useless? Since the only reason, you'll have them is for combat anyway.

Er, no. That's not the only reason.

Well, maybe you will only have your Companions out for combat.

There's roleplaying with your Companions.
Companions gain rapport through your gameplay actions, not just from combat.
Companion outfits get changed at dye stations, which are in cities.

And there are quests, some of which require combat, in cities. Glenumbra, Vulkhel Guard, and Davon's Watch all have combat quests. Vivec City, Alinor, Rimmen, and Solitude all are central locations for their zone story, but we're not supposed to bring our Companion along?

So yes, despawning Companions in cities would be a substantial downgrade in Companion usefulness, by banning them from certain areas where you should be and were otherwise able to quest with them if not for performance concerns. (And please don't say "But you don't need them." That's missing the point.)

If I'm going to quest and build a relationship with these Companions, it's a significant downgrade from being able to do so anywhere to having them despawn in cities.

zvavi · May 2021

While currently the performance is much better than the patches in which you would crash every hour, I wouldn't call the current performance a significant progress from the previous patches the game was not completely broken.

Ratzkifal · May 2021

It makes me wonder when ZOS is going to consider removing features to fix performance.
Other MMOs have a way to remove disliked features naturally by just not including them in the next expansion.
Imagine if companions flopped hard and were universally disliked and basically unsalvageable or they completely wreck performance. Would ZOS be willing to pull the plug on a feature - even one that was a big part of promotion?

The mount for 2 people seems to have been completely scrapped because of anti-cheat. That one never saw the light of day and was not a huge part of promotion, so it was somewhat easy to brush under the rug. What if something like this would happen to a big feature like companions?

Somehow I can't see ZOS doing that, even if it's necessary...

Oh well, let's hope it never comes to that!

Iccotak · May 2021

Companions when they arrive at Cities

VaranisArano · May 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It makes me wonder when ZOS is going to consider removing features to fix performance.
Other MMOs have a way to remove disliked features naturally by just not including them in the next expansion.
Imagine if companions flopped hard and were universally disliked and basically unsalvageable or they completely wreck performance. Would ZOS be willing to pull the plug on a feature - even one that was a big part of promotion?

The mount for 2 people seems to have been completely scrapped because of anti-cheat. That one never saw the light of day and was not a huge part of promotion, so it was somewhat easy to brush under the rug. What if something like this would happen to a big feature like companions?

Somehow I can't see ZOS doing that, even if it's necessary...

Oh well, let's hope it never comes to that!

They're at that point already. Gina stated that the change to 12-person groups in PVE is because of performance.

Sure, that's a liked feature, but it lays bare how desperate ZOS is: they are slashing their social groups to 12 in order to see some performance gains.

Slyclone · May 2021

Like I said....

ZOS,

Stop with the secrecy. Do more in-game polls (not just forums) about your directions, then you can have it corrected before the due dates.

Start now, for June, 2022.

Ask us, the investors, who are mostly adults:

Bug fixes?
Performance?
Cyrodil PVE?
Hardmode Overland?
Character creation overhaul?
Nerfs?
Retexture old content?
ESO 2.0?

And ye shall recieve your 40,000 answers before they become 10,000 answers.

Either you are with us or not.

Because it seems you are above us, and fishing out of our pockets.

Slyclone · May 2021

And right now, your RNG in my pocket is lowest ever.

Iccotak · May 2021

To quote what I have said elsewhere on Companions.

TL;DR - A major reason people quest alone imo is that people have zero reason to quest with a friend because questing is too simple and easy to do, however instead of addressing that ZOS made companions who are not only not much help but also possibly cause more problems then they are worth.

https://blog.playstation.com/2021/05/04/customizable-companions-come-to-the-elder-scrolls-online-next-month/

“With the Companions System, we wanted to provide our players with a new ally they can take on their adventures to provide companionship and combat support,” explains Rich Lambert, ESO’s Creative Director. “When adventuring with a Companion, we want our players to be more confident in experiencing everything Tamriel has to offer while also getting to know some unique and interesting characters.”

Not to dis on the hard work the devs did with creating the new companions - but wasn't a big part of Elder Scrolls coming Online that you could now adventure with friends?

That is what was said in the first gameplay trailer of ESO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHj5VvFWbtE

Never have our choice weighed more heavily. To stand alone - or side by side, against the encroaching forces...of Oblivion

If the overland is too easy though, and not challenging at all - or never puts players in a position to think about what they are doing - then players have very little reason to group together for the general questing experience. I don't see anyone going "Hey want to do this quest together?"
(That does not mean I am advocating for the forced grouping of Craglorn)

ZOS wants companions to give players a reason & confidence to try out dungeons with a friend and their companion - ok sounds interesting. However, Overland should, to some extent, also contribute to building a players confidence in taking on harder content, but how can they when that content does nothing to teach them how to play?

Sure the tutorial gives the basics but you never need to use the mechanics they teach to beat any story content. Is it any wonder we run into level 40-50 players in dungeons who don't understand the combat if Overland never asks the player to get better?

Because I think it should be concerning that a person who only does Overland questing can actually learn nothing about bashing, dodging, and staying out of the red spaces. I have seen that happen and have heard too many stories about it. So far, Overland does not encourage socializing (although it is better than it used to be) because things are just too simple and easy for anyone to want to work together unless it is specifically the group content like WBs and Dolmens.

What we have also found in beta - from ZOS' attempts to make companions Not as good as players is that they have made them VERY incompetent, because that is how low the bar is for skill in overland. Like many have asked "Overland is so easy why would I have a companion who needs help or can't even do their role properly?"

Maybe if Overland encouraged players to better their skill ZOS would have an excuse to raise the skill ability of NPCs and Companions - just a smidge.

Let us hope that the feedback in beta gives ZOS ample opportunity to tweak and fix things.

Ratzkifal · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It makes me wonder when ZOS is going to consider removing features to fix performance.
Other MMOs have a way to remove disliked features naturally by just not including them in the next expansion.
Imagine if companions flopped hard and were universally disliked and basically unsalvageable or they completely wreck performance. Would ZOS be willing to pull the plug on a feature - even one that was a big part of promotion?

The mount for 2 people seems to have been completely scrapped because of anti-cheat. That one never saw the light of day and was not a huge part of promotion, so it was somewhat easy to brush under the rug. What if something like this would happen to a big feature like companions?

Somehow I can't see ZOS doing that, even if it's necessary...

Oh well, let's hope it never comes to that!

They're at that point already. Gina stated that the change to 12-person groups in PVE is because of performance.

Sure, that's a liked feature, but it lays bare how desperate ZOS is: they are slashing their social groups to 12 in order to see some performance gains.

But that's just a half-assed plug-pulling because the feature still exists. Groups will still exist afterwards. Btw I am not asking for groups to be removed! I don't even want companions removed. Just hypothetically speaking...
I am wondering if ZOS would be willing to completely remove Companions and all Companion gear and everything if it turns out to be too much trouble for little to no gain.
Because from what I have seen ZOS can be very much unwilling to listen to reason and keep nonsensical changes as they are without even addressing them and just pretending that everything is fine for years. It would be simple to just keep it in and ignore it forever.

Every year a new feature is being added, even this year where they said they wouldn't be adding one. One of them is going to flop sooner or later but unlike other MMOs ESO is stuck with its features - the downside to having all content always be relevant. So ZOS is in the unique position where they might have to pull the plug on something at some point. If the technical furnishing limit was drastically lower than it ended up being, Housing would be a prime candidate for a feature that could be removed because housing is no fun if all the houses must stay empty. If PvP performance was even worse than now and the PvP community just moved on, then PvP could potentially be removed. But would it? Or would ZOS just keep it running anyway?
They don't like to change old assets anymore either because of the whole redguard armor thing, so I feel it would be in line with them if they refused to remove features even if they turned out to be detrimental.

Wolfshead · May 2021

I just love when people make post and start whine about thing without do any research at all you got love whining post

Beside "Make Significant Progress" well last few months i have not have drop in frame rate or any latency spikes that in my book is "Make Significant Progress" consider how bad it was back in 2014 for them of us that have play since 2014 this game have very significant progress over year

DtOG · May 2021

This games a meme dude I’ll never buy into es title dude. The 6th one will be just as bad.

Crash427 · May 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Because from what I have seen ZOS can be very much unwilling to listen to reason and keep nonsensical changes as they are without even addressing them and just pretending that everything is fine for years. It would be simple to just keep it in and ignore it

They've left Volendung in so...

ClawOfTheTwoMoons · May 2021

Wolfshead wrote: »

I just love when people make post and start whine about thing without do any research at all you got love whining post

Beside "Make Significant Progress" well last few months i have not have drop in frame rate or any latency spikes that in my book is "Make Significant Progress" consider how bad it was back in 2014 for them of us that have play since 2014 this game have very significant progress over year

Hi I was here in 2014, and while I can't say I was in cyrodiil during that time, but there have been many who were there and performance was never as bad as it is now. As for pve issues back then there was nothing Wong. Have you been I grayhost on a Saturday night at 7pm? Just because you're not getting framedrops that means everything is okay? What about the bugs that have been around for years, still no fixes, stuck in combat bug is a good example of this. Or how about how zos decided to let a game breaking bug just run rampant on consoles till June, no excuses any other big mmo would shut the servers down and get to work. It's obvious what zos intentions are, and it's not fixing anything. I'll let you figure it out though. Get your head out of the sand.

EpicHero · May 2021

What they meant is that they made performance 100x worse first, and now improved it a little, so it's only 99x worse

PigofSteel · May 2021

Playing since 2014 and i'm still hoping they will make significant progress in performance. I have patience.

relentless_turnip · May 2021

Remember when we all had to redownload the game so they could take all the spaghetti off our clients and move it onto the server?
Yes 18 million players took a huge performance hit so 10 people could enjoy stadia 😬👍

Asking for over a year now, please revert this change and come back to cloud gaming at a time when it's is feasible.