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[Balance Request] Inequities in Elemental Damage Sets
ealdwin
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It came to my attention that there is currently an imbalance regarding sets which provide weapon/spell damage boosts to certain damage types, which I felt should be visited.
Warmaiden - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
Silks of the Sun - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities
Ysgramor's Birthright - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Frost Damage abilities
Netch's Touch - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities
Swamp Raider - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Poison and Disease Damage abilities
Strength of the Automaton - Adds 400 Weapon Damage to your Physical and Bleed Damage abilities
Considering that each of these damage types now (A) has a status effect associated with it and (B) has the potential to increase the damage of proc sets with correlating damage type(s), there stands little reason that such differences should continue to exist in the bonuses these sets provide. For that reason, I would like to propose that each of these sets be adjusted to provide 600 Spell/Weapon Damage to their corresponding damage type. So:
Warmaiden - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
Silks of the Sun - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities
Ysgramor's Birthright - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Frost Damage abilities
Netch's Touch - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities
Swamp Raider - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Poison and Disease Damage abilities
Strength of the Automaton - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Physical and Bleed Damage abilities
Warmaiden - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
Silks of the Sun - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities
Ysgramor's Birthright - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Frost Damage abilities
Netch's Touch - Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities
Swamp Raider - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Poison and Disease Damage abilities
Strength of the Automaton - Adds 400 Weapon Damage to your Physical and Bleed Damage abilities
Considering that each of these damage types now (A) has a status effect associated with it and (B) has the potential to increase the damage of proc sets with correlating damage type(s), there stands little reason that such differences should continue to exist in the bonuses these sets provide. For that reason, I would like to propose that each of these sets be adjusted to provide 600 Spell/Weapon Damage to their corresponding damage type. So:
Warmaiden - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
Silks of the Sun - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Flame Damage abilities
Ysgramor's Birthright - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Frost Damage abilities
Netch's Touch - Adds 600 Spell Damage to your Shock Damage abilities
Swamp Raider - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Poison and Disease Damage abilities
Strength of the Automaton - Adds 600 Weapon Damage to your Physical and Bleed Damage abilities
9
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Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think that 400 is more reasonable, but otherwise agree.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Given the elevated value of straight spell damage and weapon damage due to damage proc scaling, these sets which buff weapon / spell damage to specific types of skills should be buffed. Otherwise, they will likely fall behind sets that provide more straight weapon and spell damage.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”7 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The standard response that you'll get this question is: "But they buff your Light Attacks!!"
To which the correct reply is: "Yeah, and...?"
The mere fact that a set like Ysgrammor or Silks of the Sun happen to also buff your Light Attack damage should be entirely immaterial to the power budget of the set.
The fact that certain of these elemental sets only impact a tiny handful of mostly useless skills (such as Ysgrammor) while others impact two classes' entire kits (War Maiden w/ Nightblade and Templar) certainly isn't factored into the set power budget and that is wildly more impactful as to a given set's overall performance than the tiny increased power of a Light Attack.
So yes, all of these sets need to be standardized at +600.
Also, weapon-specific sets are arguably in even worse shape and should probably be buffed to +800 or even +1000.8 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.1 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The standard response that you'll get this question is: "But they buff your Light Attacks!!"
To which the correct reply is: "Yeah, and...?"
The mere fact that a set like Ysgrammor or Silks of the Sun happen to also buff your Light Attack damage should be entirely immaterial to the power budget of the set.
The fact that certain of these elemental sets only impact a tiny handful of mostly useless skills (such as Ysgrammor) while others impact two classes' entire kits (War Maiden w/ Nightblade and Templar) certainly isn't factored into the set power budget and that is wildly more impactful as to a given set's overall performance than the tiny increased power of a Light Attack.
So yes, all of these sets need to be standardized at +600.
Also, weapon-specific sets are arguably in even worse shape and should probably be buffed to +800 or even +1000.
Silks of the Sun actually has a chance to buff a large fraction of a character's (specifically a DK's) overall damage in a reasonable build (and a little more than before now that Orb will no longer a must-equip skill for all magicka characters). War Maiden similarly, although in that case the Orb nerf detracts from the set's value.
Netch's Touch -- not nearly as high a fraction. Ysgramor -- less yet.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.FrancisCrawford wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The standard response that you'll get this question is: "But they buff your Light Attacks!!"
To which the correct reply is: "Yeah, and...?"
The mere fact that a set like Ysgrammor or Silks of the Sun happen to also buff your Light Attack damage should be entirely immaterial to the power budget of the set.
The fact that certain of these elemental sets only impact a tiny handful of mostly useless skills (such as Ysgrammor) while others impact two classes' entire kits (War Maiden w/ Nightblade and Templar) certainly isn't factored into the set power budget and that is wildly more impactful as to a given set's overall performance than the tiny increased power of a Light Attack.
So yes, all of these sets need to be standardized at +600.
Also, weapon-specific sets are arguably in even worse shape and should probably be buffed to +800 or even +1000.
Silks of the Sun actually has a chance to buff a large fraction of a character's (specifically a DK's) overall damage in a reasonable build (and a little more than before now that Orb will no longer a must-equip skill for all magicka characters). War Maiden similarly, although in that case the Orb nerf detracts from the set's value.
Netch's Touch -- not nearly as high a fraction. Ysgramor -- less yet.
Yes, but you would never choose even a 600-level Silks over Siroria or a Critical Chance set for any static fight.
Siroria is giving you Minor Slayer and with competent DPS that bonus alone significantly outweighs perceived strength that Silks brings to the table. And you have to double-bar the set whereas you can single-bar Siroria.
These sets would still be limited to PvP and elemental enthusiasts and even then they wouldn't buff your heals and it might still need to be double-barred depending upon your setup. It's difficult to justify Silks on a magDK when you could just use BSW or Clever Alchemist on a single bar instead.
But again, so these sets buff your Light Attacks? So what? Generic Spell Damage (and Critical Chance...) sets buff your Light Attacks as well as your Mystic Orbs. If having more than 400 elemental damage is so overpowered then why don't we see every end-game magDK running Succession (ignoring Zen's, etc.)? Somehow, I don't think that increasing elemental damage a mere 108 more to 600 is going to break the game.
Further, in a world where somehow a +600 elemental set actually was competitive with true end-game damage sets... why is this a bad thing? What divine right does Mother's Sorrow have to reign as the BiS non-trial set for year after year? It would be an amazing thing for build diversity if certain classes could lean into their niche rather than for all classes to be subordinated by the Critical Chance monoculture.
Having powerful sets is a good thing. This should not be a controversial opinion.11 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I worry that standardizing them would just result in a nerf—the damage types aren't distributed evenly across all the skills in the game, so maybe it sorta makes sense that these sets aren't. I definitely agree with wanting the 600 Spell Damage for the other damage types, though >_>
At least for magicka, Elemental Succession has 100% effective uptime on its 492 Spell Damage for fire, shock, and frost, with an extra line of 1000 Magicka instead of Spell Crit like Ysgramor's, Silks of the Sun, and Netch's Touch. So until there's a change, I've been using that, instead.PC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner1 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The standard response that you'll get this question is: "But they buff your Light Attacks!!"
To which the correct reply is: "Yeah, and...?"
The mere fact that a set like Ysgrammor or Silks of the Sun happen to also buff your Light Attack damage should be entirely immaterial to the power budget of the set.
The fact that certain of these elemental sets only impact a tiny handful of mostly useless skills (such as Ysgrammor) while others impact two classes' entire kits (War Maiden w/ Nightblade and Templar) certainly isn't factored into the set power budget and that is wildly more impactful as to a given set's overall performance than the tiny increased power of a Light Attack.
So yes, all of these sets need to be standardized at +600.
Also, weapon-specific sets are arguably in even worse shape and should probably be buffed to +800 or even +1000.
Silks of the Sun actually has a chance to buff a large fraction of a character's (specifically a DK's) overall damage in a reasonable build (and a little more than before now that Orb will no longer a must-equip skill for all magicka characters). War Maiden similarly, although in that case the Orb nerf detracts from the set's value.
Netch's Touch -- not nearly as high a fraction. Ysgramor -- less yet.
When it comes to Netch's Touch You can actually build magsorc purely around shock dmg but it's kinda off meta setup. Few years ago when off balance had no cooldown it was actually decent.Edited by axi on May 11, 2021 1:06AM3 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
Edited by axi on May 10, 2021 1:09PM0 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
but how much does it actually beat it by? if it's just barely there's no reason to use it over some other sets still.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
A comparison to Julianos is vital because the relative power between two elemental sets is meaningless if their overall tuning is too low to be used in non-trivial content. It is like that saying of being the biggest fish in a tiny fish bowl. There is no reason to use any of these sets when there are so many sets that are definitively superior to them - and that is a shame.2 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Umm. You can build entirely around poison/disease with a stamcro/StamDK and swampraider....600.
Or magblade/Templar with all magic damage and War Maiden....600.
Personally, none of the low end, overland/non-DLC dungeon sets should have 600 anything. Hard to get aspiration sets should be that high, and proc sets without 100% uptime should be higher.0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
A comparison to Julianos is vital because the relative power between two elemental sets is meaningless if their overall tuning is too low to be used in non-trivial content. It is like that saying of being the biggest fish in a tiny fish bowl. There is no reason to use any of these sets when there are so many sets that are definitively superior to them - and that is a shame.
I think You completly missed the point of what I've said. Relative power between those 2 sets is most important part of comparison I made. showing that some of the elemental sets values makes even less sense if You look at other elemental sets added later that are responsible for excatly the same thing. You know not everything resolves around meta.
FYI with someone else keeping high uptime of chilled and brittle Frostbite is actually capable to keep up with some of the meta sets.Edited by axi on May 11, 2021 1:17AM0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Umm. You can build entirely around poison/disease with a stamcro/StamDK and swampraider....600.
Or magblade/Templar with all magic damage and War Maiden....600.
Personally, none of the low end, overland/non-DLC dungeon sets should have 600 anything. Hard to get aspiration sets should be that high, and proc sets without 100% uptime should be higher.
Umm sorry @katorga but You cannot. I think You misunderstood my point. I was talking about building purely around one type of damage while also not changing Your meta rotation.
On stamcro/stam dk Your weapon attacks still deal physical dmg and You'll also want to use back bar weapon ability that deals physical dmg to proc weapon enchant (deadly cloak/endless hail). In both cases some usefull class abilities like flames of oblivion or skeletal arcanist won't be buffed. You also loose buff on skills like stonefist , rending slashes , or standard of might , barbed trap etc. That is lot of attacks that are not being buffed.
Similar pattern can be used for magblade/magplar. Their light attacks are either physical+flame dmg or just flame dmg and on back bar You want to slot blockade. Your destro ulti/meteor also wont get buff in situations where You would need those. Once again big chunk of damage not being buffed.
So in all options You've mentioned You cannot build meta rotation purely around one damage type.
In the case of mag DK and stamsorc I've mentioned You can build basically a meta rotation entirely around flame or physical dmg without any noticable change or waste (only change would be dawnbreaker instead of atronach on stamsorc).0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
A comparison to Julianos is vital because the relative power between two elemental sets is meaningless if their overall tuning is too low to be used in non-trivial content. It is like that saying of being the biggest fish in a tiny fish bowl. There is no reason to use any of these sets when there are so many sets that are definitively superior to them - and that is a shame.
I think You completly missed the point of what I've said. Relative power between those 2 sets is most important part of comparison I made. showing that some of the elemental sets values makes even less sense if You look at other elemental sets added later that are responsible for excatly the same thing. You know not everything resolves around meta.
FYI with someone else keeping high uptime of chilled and brittle Frostbite is actually capable to keep up with some of the meta sets.
Believe what you want but my eyes are always on the prize - having more and better sets to choose from in serious content, whether that be PvE or PvP.
Of the things that I absolutely cannot abide in ESO, the weird entitlement that so many players (and the Combat Team) extend to Mother's Sorrow and the tired Critical Chance meta ranks perhaps at the very top.
My decision tree reads: "Does balance decision X undermine the Critical Chance meta and thus promote build diversity?" IF YES -> "Do that thing!" And buffing ALL of these sets to 600 is one of those things.
So that is where I am coming from in this discussion. There are scads of sets that have been relegated to a permanent state of uselessness due to ZOS' chronic inability to tune them competitively, and it is annoying. The sets in question are just more bricks inside that endless wall.
The world isn't going to suddenly end if magDKs can use a 600 Spell Power version of Silks of the Sun nor will it if a stamSorc can use a similarly powerful Automaton. In fact, nothing will happen at all because those sets - even at those tunings - will never actually displace Advancing Yokeda, Relequen, Siroria or Mother's Sorrow because combat balancing continues to be so absurdly slanted toward rewarding Critical Chance.
And if somehow a 600-level Automaton ended up displacing Advancing Yokeda for that one specific class - that is something that should be celebrated rather than shunned as it would mark a glorious victory for build diversity over the mindless practice of simply stacking Critical Chance and Damage.5 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
I mean, it would be strong for PvE for sure, but far from ideal in PvP. All of these sets do not increase your healing and depending on your build has a wasted piece (critical bonus) in PvP. Also, swamprider has already proven to be a go to set for some stamblade and stamcro builds as they both venefit greatly from this set, while other classes are somewhat stuck to lesser versions.2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
I mean, it would be strong for PvE for sure, but far from ideal in PvP. All of these sets do not increase your healing and depending on your build has a wasted piece (critical bonus) in PvP. Also, swamprider has already proven to be a go to set for some stamblade and stamcro builds as they both venefit greatly from this set, while other classes are somewhat stuck to lesser versions.
In PvP it would be actually very strong on certain classes. Remember when New Moon Acolyte was a meta on front bar loaded with offensive skills ? Automaton would give more dmg and without drawback. Also crit chance in PvP is not a wasted piece. Fact that people have impen doesnt mean You wont get bonus dmg when You crit on them or when You heal Yourself. Good example once again is old meta with New Moon Acolyte.
Fact that Swamp Rider is more or less usefull on specific setups that still are not fully build around one dmg type only proves that Automaton with 600 wep dmg would be even stronger on setups where You can specialize fully into one type of dmg0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭universal_wrath wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
I mean, it would be strong for PvE for sure, but far from ideal in PvP. All of these sets do not increase your healing and depending on your build has a wasted piece (critical bonus) in PvP. Also, swamprider has already proven to be a go to set for some stamblade and stamcro builds as they both venefit greatly from this set, while other classes are somewhat stuck to lesser versions.
In PvP it would be actually very strong on certain classes. Remember when New Moon Acolyte was a meta on front bar loaded with offensive skills ? Automaton would give more dmg and without drawback. Also crit chance in PvP is not a wasted piece. Fact that people have impen doesnt mean You wont get bonus dmg when You crit on them or when You heal Yourself. Good example once again is old meta with New Moon Acolyte.
Fact that Swamp Rider is more or less usefull on specific setups that still are not fully build around one dmg type only proves that Automaton with 600 wep dmg would be even stronger on setups where You can specialize fully into one type of dmg
For PvP though, you can't escape the fact that these sets do nothing for your heals, which is huge - especially on a Medium Armor build. That alone is a massive kiss-curse placed upon the set that justifies its perceived power.
Would it be strong on a skilled glass-canon? Yes... and there's nothing wrong with that. And it's certainly a more desirable state of affairs than funneling everyone into proc sets or the small handful of other popular sets.3 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agree they should all be 600. Swamp Raider already is, and it doesn’t even make it into the top 5 for stamina damage sets. War maiden is a similar story, and neither of these two sets can affect all your damage because they do not include Light Attacks or weapon AoE DoTs (used for pricking back bar enchants, and often arena weapon sets).
While the others in question would apply to these things, and could potentially buff all damage sources on something like an Automaton Stamsorc or a Silks MagDK, I don’t believe these would be a problem. I doubt it would even compete with alternate sets for the stamsorc: Relequen, Advancing Yokeda, Kinras, etc. It might be close, but it certainly wouldn’t pull ahead enough to cause balance issues. Silks of the Sun could add 600 Spell Damage to 100% of MagDK damage and it would still only beat Mother’s Sorrow by 1-2% DPS. I’m pretty sure MagDK is more than 2% behind other classes at the moment, so that would actually help class balance by giving them a unique tool (similar to when they were meta with Elf Bane builds).
All the others would be very hard to use effectively. Even a Brittle Warden only deals a small % of frost damage. And pure Shock Sorcerer doesn’t exist without severely crippling their damage. Lightning Flood remains the weakest AoE DoT in the game, Wall should always be fire, Frags and Curse deal magic damage, and they don’t even have a shock damage spammable. You’d have to use something like Shock Clench (about 30% weaker than single target spammables) and in that case you’d be better off getting 600 Spell Damage from the Master Lightning Staff than from Netch’s Touch. Even if a Sorcerer wore this set, they’d still be better off using an Inferno Staff than a Lightning Staff, the Fire Light Attacks would still hit significantly harder despite the difference of 600 Spell Damage.6 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »universal_wrath wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
I mean, it would be strong for PvE for sure, but far from ideal in PvP. All of these sets do not increase your healing and depending on your build has a wasted piece (critical bonus) in PvP. Also, swamprider has already proven to be a go to set for some stamblade and stamcro builds as they both venefit greatly from this set, while other classes are somewhat stuck to lesser versions.
In PvP it would be actually very strong on certain classes. Remember when New Moon Acolyte was a meta on front bar loaded with offensive skills ? Automaton would give more dmg and without drawback. Also crit chance in PvP is not a wasted piece. Fact that people have impen doesnt mean You wont get bonus dmg when You crit on them or when You heal Yourself. Good example once again is old meta with New Moon Acolyte.
Fact that Swamp Rider is more or less usefull on specific setups that still are not fully build around one dmg type only proves that Automaton with 600 wep dmg would be even stronger on setups where You can specialize fully into one type of dmg
For PvP though, you can't escape the fact that these sets do nothing for your heals, which is huge - especially on a Medium Armor build. That alone is a massive kiss-curse placed upon the set that justifies its perceived power.
Would it be strong on a skilled glass-canon? Yes... and there's nothing wrong with that. And it's certainly a more desirable state of affairs than funneling everyone into proc sets or the small handful of other popular sets.
Just slot heals on back bar? Like a lot of PvP setups is doing anyway. Front bar for offense (where Your 5 piece automaton is) and back bar for defense is not something new in PvP and definietly not something just for glass cannons. Investing on front bar into offensive stats that wont buff Your healing is nothing ususuall as there are already compositions with penetration (ex spriggan/spinner) or percentage buffs (ex shieldbreaker) sets used on front bar.Edited by axi on May 12, 2021 11:19AM0 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.
First of all I was comparing Frostbite to Ysgramor because this is the thread topic so I don't know why You bring Julianos argument here.
Second of all yes Frostbite is weaker then Julianos when You're the one responsible for providing chilled and brittle but it beats Julianos when You have someone else in group responsible for chilled and brittle for example double ice staff off tank.
A comparison to Julianos is vital because the relative power between two elemental sets is meaningless if their overall tuning is too low to be used in non-trivial content. It is like that saying of being the biggest fish in a tiny fish bowl. There is no reason to use any of these sets when there are so many sets that are definitively superior to them - and that is a shame.
I think You completly missed the point of what I've said. Relative power between those 2 sets is most important part of comparison I made. showing that some of the elemental sets values makes even less sense if You look at other elemental sets added later that are responsible for excatly the same thing. You know not everything resolves around meta.
FYI with someone else keeping high uptime of chilled and brittle Frostbite is actually capable to keep up with some of the meta sets.
Believe what you want but my eyes are always on the prize - having more and better sets to choose from in serious content, whether that be PvE or PvP.
Of the things that I absolutely cannot abide in ESO, the weird entitlement that so many players (and the Combat Team) extend to Mother's Sorrow and the tired Critical Chance meta ranks perhaps at the very top.
My decision tree reads: "Does balance decision X undermine the Critical Chance meta and thus promote build diversity?" IF YES -> "Do that thing!" And buffing ALL of these sets to 600 is one of those things.
So that is where I am coming from in this discussion. There are scads of sets that have been relegated to a permanent state of uselessness due to ZOS' chronic inability to tune them competitively, and it is annoying. The sets in question are just more bricks inside that endless wall.
The world isn't going to suddenly end if magDKs can use a 600 Spell Power version of Silks of the Sun nor will it if a stamSorc can use a similarly powerful Automaton. In fact, nothing will happen at all because those sets - even at those tunings - will never actually displace Advancing Yokeda, Relequen, Siroria or Mother's Sorrow because combat balancing continues to be so absurdly slanted toward rewarding Critical Chance.
And if somehow a 600-level Automaton ended up displacing Advancing Yokeda for that one specific class - that is something that should be celebrated rather than shunned as it would mark a glorious victory for build diversity over the mindless practice of simply stacking Critical Chance and Damage.
Sadly end game in PvE doesn't work that way. Whenever set A is introduced or gets buffed and compared to current meta set B it's stronger thenset B becomes off meta or even called useless by some. Unique sets that work on specific classes usually follow the same pattern. If automaton would beat Yokeda then yokeda would be called useless for stamsorc. it Silk of the sun would beat MS then MS would be called useless for mag DK (kinda how elf bane was making other sets "useless" for a moment on mag DK).
When it comes to balance if that new set beats older set then power creep just raises for one specific class creating unbalance. That is what we kinda have with deadly strike that empowers already strong yet braindead jabs spam making stamplar boring at the end. That one set often can also create unbalance for other commonly used thins like situation with elf bane buffing zaan causing changes to zaan at the end. For example when it comes to automaton giving 600 wep dmg it would already make all sets buffing stamina weapon skill lines even more useless (ex Sword Singer) so ZoS would either have to rebalance those or leave them useless but balancing those would also require balance on few other sets. More bricks to move.
It's nice to have as many options possible when it comes to game end but lets be honest meta will be always meta , resolving around smallest percentage of sets. Devs job is just to keep reasonable amount of other sets close behind to give other alternative options but You're fooling Yourself to belive that developer is capable to perfectly balance and monitor over 400 sets or that at the end You'll have "more sets to choose from".
As for critical chance being the meta atm I am also not the biggest fan of it but when You look at the fact that in pvp , crit chance have lesser meaning then logically it needs to be compensated somwhere. Crit meta we have right now is also partially fault of build diversity You're fighting for because sets or skills that have better usage on specific classes are part of the problem. Elemental Catalyst introduction just pushed meta even more into crit chance territory. Brittle on ice staff did the same. We have more builds possible at the end but is it good for the game? Not every balance change that increases build diversity is a good change by default.Edited by axi on May 12, 2021 11:50AM0 -
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✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »What is also funny is that for example Ysgramor will be a trash compared to new Frostbite set.
When it comes to sets like Automaton and SIlk of the Sun the reason why ZoS is not buffing those to 600 wep/spell dmg is kinda obvious. Certain setups are capable to build purely around physical or flame dmg (stamsorc and mag DK) which would make 5 piece bonuses on those 2 sets the strongest options out there. For mag DK Silk of the Sun giving 600 spell dmg would be stronger then siroria.
Don't get too excited... Frostbite is still less powerful than Julianos. And it doesn't buff your heals, etc.
There's really no reason to use it over a traditional damage set.FrancisCrawford wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »The standard response that you'll get this question is: "But they buff your Light Attacks!!"
To which the correct reply is: "Yeah, and...?"
The mere fact that a set like Ysgrammor or Silks of the Sun happen to also buff your Light Attack damage should be entirely immaterial to the power budget of the set.
The fact that certain of these elemental sets only impact a tiny handful of mostly useless skills (such as Ysgrammor) while others impact two classes' entire kits (War Maiden w/ Nightblade and Templar) certainly isn't factored into the set power budget and that is wildly more impactful as to a given set's overall performance than the tiny increased power of a Light Attack.
So yes, all of these sets need to be standardized at +600.
Also, weapon-specific sets are arguably in even worse shape and should probably be buffed to +800 or even +1000.
Silks of the Sun actually has a chance to buff a large fraction of a character's (specifically a DK's) overall damage in a reasonable build (and a little more than before now that Orb will no longer a must-equip skill for all magicka characters). War Maiden similarly, although in that case the Orb nerf detracts from the set's value.
Netch's Touch -- not nearly as high a fraction. Ysgramor -- less yet.
Yes, but you would never choose even a 600-level Silks over Siroria or a Critical Chance set for any static fight.
Siroria is giving you Minor Slayer and with competent DPS that bonus alone significantly outweighs perceived strength that Silks brings to the table. And you have to double-bar the set whereas you can single-bar Siroria.
These sets would still be limited to PvP and elemental enthusiasts and even then they wouldn't buff your heals and it might still need to be double-barred depending upon your setup. It's difficult to justify Silks on a magDK when you could just use BSW or Clever Alchemist on a single bar instead.
But again, so these sets buff your Light Attacks? So what? Generic Spell Damage (and Critical Chance...) sets buff your Light Attacks as well as your Mystic Orbs. If having more than 400 elemental damage is so overpowered then why don't we see every end-game magDK running Succession (ignoring Zen's, etc.)? Somehow, I don't think that increasing elemental damage a mere 108 more to 600 is going to break the game.
Further, in a world where somehow a +600 elemental set actually was competitive with true end-game damage sets... why is this a bad thing? What divine right does Mother's Sorrow have to reign as the BiS non-trial set for year after year? It would be an amazing thing for build diversity if certain classes could lean into their niche rather than for all classes to be subordinated by the Critical Chance monoculture.
Having powerful sets is a good thing. This should not be a controversial opinion.
^^^^exactly this
I would also say these sets should add Critical Chance to their damage types too, and potentially even reduce damage/crit chance for other damage types.
These sets need to be much stronger. A set like mothers sorrow which is amazing for all dps should not be better at a niche than the niche set.....
Edited by Vaoh on May 12, 2021 12:00PM2 -
axi✭✭✭✭✭Few points I didn't respond to earlierYandereGirlfriend wrote: »Siroria is giving you Minor Slayer and with competent DPS that bonus alone significantly outweighs perceived strength that Silks brings to the table. And you have to double-bar the set whereas you can single-bar Siroria.
There are fight where Silk of the Sun would still beat Siroria. Like mobile fights where Siroria is keeping low uptime , or fights where You would front bar sets like medusa or when You use other set with minor slayer. In reality though it would be competitor to MS rather then siroria. 600 SD increased by 30% (major+minor buff) is 780 SD which have a chance to beat 7% crit from MS.These sets would still be limited to PvP and elemental enthusiasts and even then they wouldn't buff your heals and it might still need to be double-barred depending upon your setup. It's difficult to justify Silks on a magDK when you could just use BSW or Clever Alchemist on a single bar instead.
Guaranteed buff whenever You need it is still better then lower buff (BSW) or occasional buff dependant on other thing You need in real gameplay (clever alchemist)But again, so these sets buff your Light Attacks? So what? Generic Spell Damage (and Critical Chance...) sets buff your Light Attacks as well as your Mystic Orbs. If having more than 400 elemental damage is so overpowered then why don't we see every end-game magDK running Succession (ignoring Zen's, etc.)? Somehow, I don't think that increasing elemental damage a mere 108 more to 600 is going to break the game.
When Netches Touch with 400 SD was a off meta for magsorc it was determined that in order to be viable You need more then 80% of Your dmg to belong to that one particular dmg type (shock dmg in this case).We need to remember that in the meantime new sets arrived and meta changed more towards crit chance so even with Silk of the Sun/automaton giving 600sd/wd we can estimate that percentage value would still be around 80%. Excluding light attacks only , already pushes it close to the breaking point. One more ability and War maiden/Swamp Raider already fall behind other sets. fact that Silk of the Sun/Automaton works light attacks allows to buff nearly 100% of Your dmg including it's biggest chunk which light attacks are.
Succession flame staff is by far the most tedious thing to farm in the whole game. it is also possibly bugged as it was capable to keep only ~75% uptime for me on PTS few patches ago even when it was on body pieces. That makes it close to BSW which would be also outparsed by 600 SD on silk of the Sun. I've only saw few desperate enough DK's running with it in PvP and they were doing pretty good job with it. Also we cannot ignore Zen's as it's currently one of the reasons to bring mag DK into the team. Also also where did I said that 600 spell dmg on Silk of the Sun would break the game?Further, in a world where somehow a +600 elemental set actually was competitive with true end-game damage sets... why is this a bad thing? What divine right does Mother's Sorrow have to reign as the BiS non-trial set for year after year? It would be an amazing thing for build diversity if certain classes could lean into their niche rather than for all classes to be subordinated by the Critical Chance monoculture.
Well considering that those sets are being buffed by percentage sd/wd modifiers it would be 800-900 value in group fights which already starts to fight with some of the crit chance sets. I've explained why increasing power creep can be a bad thing in previous post. Same goes for critical chance monoculture.
Look I am not the enemy of the build diversity I was just saying why in my opinion buffing automaton and silk of the sun could be a bad idea from devs perspective.
Edited by axi on May 13, 2021 11:01AM0 -
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HAMMERS NOT OVERPERFORMING, YOU LIGHTNING UNDERPERFORMINGFear is the Mindkiller0