Proc Set Buffs and Ball Groups

neferpitou73 · May 2021

I made a comment on this in another thread but I thought I'd start a thread on it to draw more attention to it. The changes that ZOS has made to proc sets are going to disproportionally benefit ball groups and ball group style play. While I'm grateful for the buffs as a ball group player, I know this is likely going to start another 40 "Nerf ball group" threads after the patch drops, and might result in more "tests" for Cyrodiil. And let's face it it's not going to be terribly fun to play against groups running entirely proc sets (although I definitely don't want to see them gotten rid of, just not as overtuned as they are)

In a ball group it's much easier to stack weapon and spell damage buffs, as well as penetration buffs, suing sets such as SPC, Powefull Assualt, Alkosh and skills like caltrops. With the buff to the radius of VD and the proc damage buff on that it's going to be really nasty to run.

The changes also benefit stamina comps more than magicka comps, just because it's easier to get weapon damage than spell damage. So build diversity is reduced. One might argue that it balances out with the penetration bonus from light armor. But I'd argue that in a ball group that won't matter as much since you'll get so much extra pen anyway.

Sandman929 · May 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I made a comment on this in another thread but I thought I'd start a thread on it to draw more attention to it. The changes that ZOS has made to proc sets are going to disproportionally benefit ball groups and ball group style play. While I'm grateful for the buffs as a ball group player, I know this is likely going to start another 40 "Nerf ball group" threads after the patch drops, and might result in more "tests" for Cyrodiil. And let's face it it's not going to be terribly fun to play against groups running entirely proc sets (although I definitely don't want to see them gotten rid of, just not as overtuned as they are)

In a ball group it's much easier to stack weapon and spell damage buffs, as well as penetration buffs, suing sets such as SPC, Powefull Assualt, Alkosh and skills like caltrops. With the buff to the radius of VD and the proc damage buff on that it's going to be really nasty to run.

The changes also benefit stamina comps more than magicka comps, just because it's easier to get weapon damage than spell damage. So build diversity is reduced. One might argue that it balances out with the penetration bonus from light armor. But I'd argue that in a ball group that won't matter as much since you'll get so much extra pen anyway.

Crimson looked really good as a purge tank set, but now it doesn't. Sithis looked really good, but now not so much...the extended VD radius is nice, and as you mentioned you can stack weapon and spell damage very high with all the group buffs available. The "procs" themselves I don't find all that attractive but the increased healing power and skill damage you can get when you're able to get to 8k spell damage and 9-10k weapon damage is very nice. It's not like they'll be throwing on the high single target procs, there's no benefit to that.
From a group perspective I'm more excited about getting the support sets back than anything else.

BardInSolitude · May 2021

I personally see that as a good thing. Perhaps it's time for Cyrodiil players to finally realise that you truly need to take advantage of game mechanics in a coordinated fashion in order to help your faction prevail, and simply loosely running around in groups of solo builds doesn't (and shouldn't) cut it.

I was very glad to see Crimson, in perticular, getting nerfed. That seems like a definitive stop to unreasonably powerful solo builds, which can survive tremendous damage but also produce volumes of it. Though, to be fair, Crimson wearers are merely nuisances and not an actual issue in Cyrodiil, so I wouldn't mind it even if Crimson didn't receive any nerf whatsoever.

On a last note, it would make a lot more sense if procs scaled like skills (specifically ultimates), i.e. by using both weapon power and max resource, but not other stats like resistance or health.

neferpitou73 · May 2021

I'm going to post some builds later, just to emphasize the point.

Sandman929 · May 2021

Another thing to consider is that glass cannon bombers are going to be incredibly scary to everyone, including groups.

VaranisArano · May 2021

Sandman929 wrote: »

Another thing to consider is that glass cannon bombers are going to be incredibly scary to everyone, including groups.

That's pretty normal, though. It's a high risk, high reward playstyle. If we spot you coming in, you're dead. If we don't, there's a good chance that we're dead. So I don't really mind them getting a buff for going all-in on their glass-cannon-ness.

Joy_Division · May 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I made a comment on this in another thread but I thought I'd start a thread on it to draw more attention to it. The changes that ZOS has made to proc sets are going to disproportionally benefit ball groups and ball group style play. While I'm grateful for the buffs as a ball group player, I know this is likely going to start another 40 "Nerf ball group" threads after the patch drops, and might result in more "tests" for Cyrodiil. And let's face it it's not going to be terribly fun to play against groups running entirely proc sets (although I definitely don't want to see them gotten rid of, just not as overtuned as they are)

In a ball group it's much easier to stack weapon and spell damage buffs, as well as penetration buffs, suing sets such as SPC, Powefull Assualt, Alkosh and skills like caltrops. With the buff to the radius of VD and the proc damage buff on that it's going to be really nasty to run.

The changes also benefit stamina comps more than magicka comps, just because it's easier to get weapon damage than spell damage. So build diversity is reduced. One might argue that it balances out with the penetration bonus from light armor. But I'd argue that in a ball group that won't matter as much since you'll get so much extra pen anyway.

Radiating Regen + Harmony + Destro ult means there is little diversity now.

Are you suggesting that the proc sets should be nerfed such that they are unusable or bad for people not in a "ball group" with all those buffs? Because I'm not sure that's addressing the issue. Anything "ball groups" will use will be much more effective in their hands because they organized themselves such that they have those buffs.

Sandman929 · May 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Another thing to consider is that glass cannon bombers are going to be incredibly scary to everyone, including groups.

That's pretty normal, though. It's a high risk, high reward playstyle. If we spot you coming in, you're dead. If we don't, there's a good chance that we're dead. So I don't really mind them getting a buff for going all-in on their glass-cannon-ness.

I don't either, but I'll curse all the same if they get me.

xylena_lazarow · May 2021

Properly optimized and executed ball groups are going to approach a threshold at which they are mathematically invincible to the noise damage of any possible size disorganized pug zerg, even a full faction stack. Large scale PvP in Cyro has a serious floor/ceiling issue, expect casual PvPer complaints against ball groups to intensify.

BardInSolitude · May 2021

Sandman929 wrote: »

Another thing to consider is that glass cannon bombers are going to be incredibly scary to everyone, including groups.

They already have been... cough Ice cough cough house cough

And that's great! VD truly stands as the only chance for solo players to counter ball groups, and to master the art of solo bombing takes enough skill to justify its incredible power.

Satiar · May 2021

There aren’t a ton of big proc sets for groups that are effected by numbers. What are they going to use? Grothdar? Caal? Crimson?

VD is rly the only one. Beyond that I see little worth investing in. Sets with static values like curse eater, sanctuary, meritorious, etc will be standard imo.

neferpitou73 · May 2021

Joy_Division wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I made a comment on this in another thread but I thought I'd start a thread on it to draw more attention to it. The changes that ZOS has made to proc sets are going to disproportionally benefit ball groups and ball group style play. While I'm grateful for the buffs as a ball group player, I know this is likely going to start another 40 "Nerf ball group" threads after the patch drops, and might result in more "tests" for Cyrodiil. And let's face it it's not going to be terribly fun to play against groups running entirely proc sets (although I definitely don't want to see them gotten rid of, just not as overtuned as they are)

In a ball group it's much easier to stack weapon and spell damage buffs, as well as penetration buffs, suing sets such as SPC, Powefull Assualt, Alkosh and skills like caltrops. With the buff to the radius of VD and the proc damage buff on that it's going to be really nasty to run.

The changes also benefit stamina comps more than magicka comps, just because it's easier to get weapon damage than spell damage. So build diversity is reduced. One might argue that it balances out with the penetration bonus from light armor. But I'd argue that in a ball group that won't matter as much since you'll get so much extra pen anyway.

Radiating Regen + Harmony + Destro ult means there is little diversity now.

Are you suggesting that the proc sets should be nerfed such that they are unusable or bad for people not in a "ball group" with all those buffs? Because I'm not sure that's addressing the issue. Anything "ball groups" will use will be much more effective in their hands because they organized themselves such that they have those buffs.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. As you say anything ball groups use will be more effective. So take the 1000k+ extra spell and weapon damage you can get calculate the new proc damage with that and multiply it by 6-7 for each DD in the group.

What I'd like to see them do is put in diminishing returns past a certain point, or put a hard cap on the proc damage.

SgtNuttzmeg · May 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm going to post some builds later, just to emphasize the point.

You should. I did some brief testing last week and was able to get a 36k VD proc. That was only with clever, infused jewelry, minor brutality and weapon dmg glyph on my back bar. With balrogh, SPC and PA you could probably hit a 40k+ proc. Even after the 17% nerf.

What they really need to do is to create a scaling that follows a logarithmic scale. Have it scale really well for the first hunk of weapon/spell dmg and have it hit some limit that you can slowly approach but never truly hit.

This would raise the floor for newer players, ensure procs don't get too crazy and keep a variety of builds competitive. Instead of making them who can stack the most weapon dmg.

Joy_Division · May 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I made a comment on this in another thread but I thought I'd start a thread on it to draw more attention to it. The changes that ZOS has made to proc sets are going to disproportionally benefit ball groups and ball group style play. While I'm grateful for the buffs as a ball group player, I know this is likely going to start another 40 "Nerf ball group" threads after the patch drops, and might result in more "tests" for Cyrodiil. And let's face it it's not going to be terribly fun to play against groups running entirely proc sets (although I definitely don't want to see them gotten rid of, just not as overtuned as they are)

In a ball group it's much easier to stack weapon and spell damage buffs, as well as penetration buffs, suing sets such as SPC, Powefull Assualt, Alkosh and skills like caltrops. With the buff to the radius of VD and the proc damage buff on that it's going to be really nasty to run.

The changes also benefit stamina comps more than magicka comps, just because it's easier to get weapon damage than spell damage. So build diversity is reduced. One might argue that it balances out with the penetration bonus from light armor. But I'd argue that in a ball group that won't matter as much since you'll get so much extra pen anyway.

Radiating Regen + Harmony + Destro ult means there is little diversity now.

Are you suggesting that the proc sets should be nerfed such that they are unusable or bad for people not in a "ball group" with all those buffs? Because I'm not sure that's addressing the issue. Anything "ball groups" will use will be much more effective in their hands because they organized themselves such that they have those buffs.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all. As you say anything ball groups use will be more effective. So take the 1000k+ extra spell and weapon damage you can get calculate the new proc damage with that and multiply it by 6-7 for each DD in the group.

What I'd like to see them do is put in diminishing returns past a certain point, or put a hard cap on the proc damage.

That might be needed even without organized groups. We won't know about the numbers/values that ZOS ultimately goes with on the scaling until we see how they play out in actually PvP environments.

neferpitou73 · May 2021

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm going to post some builds later, just to emphasize the point.

You should. I did some brief testing last week and was able to get a 36k VD proc. That was only with clever, infused jewelry, minor brutality and weapon dmg glyph on my back bar. With balrogh, SPC and PA you could probably hit a 40k+ proc. Even after the 17% nerf.

What they really need to do is to create a scaling that follows a logarithmic scale. Have it scale really well for the first hunk of weapon/spell dmg and have it hit some limit that you can slowly approach but never truly hit.

This would raise the floor for newer players, ensure procs don't get too crazy and keep a variety of builds competitive. Instead of making them who can stack the most weapon dmg.

I made one last week on a sorc. Got a 38k proc:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=340646

With DK you can likely get it up to around 40k. Granted that build isn't exactly practical but even shaving off a bit of weapon damage you still get an insane tooltip. We'll have to see how the reduction from the current notes does.

I really like the idea of some sort of logarithmic scaling, or at least, some way to get the diminishing returns.

SgtNuttzmeg · May 2021

neferpitou73 wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm going to post some builds later, just to emphasize the point.

You should. I did some brief testing last week and was able to get a 36k VD proc. That was only with clever, infused jewelry, minor brutality and weapon dmg glyph on my back bar. With balrogh, SPC and PA you could probably hit a 40k+ proc. Even after the 17% nerf.

What they really need to do is to create a scaling that follows a logarithmic scale. Have it scale really well for the first hunk of weapon/spell dmg and have it hit some limit that you can slowly approach but never truly hit.

This would raise the floor for newer players, ensure procs don't get too crazy and keep a variety of builds competitive. Instead of making them who can stack the most weapon dmg.

I made one last week on a sorc. Got a 38k proc:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=340646

With DK you can likely get it up to around 40k. Granted that build isn't exactly practical but even shaving off a bit of weapon damage you still get an insane tooltip. We'll have to see how the reduction from the current notes does.

I really like the idea of some sort of logarithmic scaling, or at least, some way to get the diminishing returns.

Crazy but yea a sobering build. You also missed the minor beserk buff. Activating it pushes it to a 39.9k proc. Even after the nerf we could probably get VD to be double what it is on live currently.

@ZOS_GinaBruno is there anyway we could implement diminishing returns on procs like neferpitou73 suggested or some form of logarithmic function? Where the first X weapon damage scales really well and it slowly tappers off as you invest more and more into it? It might help to raise the floor and lower the ceiling. Hopefully keep things from not getting too crazy.

neferpitou73 · May 2021

The DK gets up to 42k:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=343909

Now, if engulfing flames buff also applies to procs (now that they scale off offensive stats) that's another 4.2k there.

doesurmindglow · May 2021

I'm also a ball group player and ball group organizer that is at first blush inclined to agree.

That said, I haven't yet tested with today's changes on the PTS to an extent that I can say for sure. I do think there will need to be diminishing returns of some kind (or, ugh, those much less ideal, a hard cap) that prevents a strong group comp from becoming outright imbalanced in practice. While there's probably less reason for concern that ball groups will simply adopt 70k HP Crimson/Almalexia/other OP defensive build comps that are largely unkillable, the ability to reach outlandish results might still be pretty feasible by stacking group spell damage buffs and dedicated uptime on war horn.

That said, I'm not fully sold that this is necessarily a bad thing in open-world PVP. There should be advantages to and rewards from organized group composition and coordinated, tactical gameplay. But it shouldn't be so far tilted that direction that a ball group is thoroughly without challenge, or that with a certain comp there is minimal need for highly engaged coordination.

It's wait and see right now but i do like the idea of diminishing returns or upward limits. I will admit today's numbers are closer to balanced and it does appear ZOS is taking its stated intentions pretty seriously.

SgtNuttzmeg · May 2021

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I'm also a ball group player and ball group organizer that is at first blush inclined to agree.

That said, I haven't yet tested with today's changes on the PTS to an extent that I can say for sure. I do think there will need to be diminishing returns of some kind (or, ugh, those much less ideal, a hard cap) that prevents a strong group comp from becoming outright imbalanced in practice. While there's probably less reason for concern that ball groups will simply adopt 70k HP Crimson/Almalexia/other OP defensive build comps that are largely unkillable, the ability to reach outlandish results might still be pretty feasible by stacking group spell damage buffs and dedicated uptime on war horn.

That said, I'm not fully sold that this is necessarily a bad thing in open-world PVP. There should be advantages to and rewards from organized group composition and coordinated, tactical gameplay. But it shouldn't be so far tilted that direction that a ball group is thoroughly without challenge, or that with a certain comp there is minimal need for highly engaged coordination.

It's wait and see right now but i do like the idea of diminishing returns or upward limits. I will admit today's numbers are closer to balanced and it does appear ZOS is taking its stated intentions pretty seriously.

I don't think the problem would nessicarily lie with just ball groups. If you think about it sets like Azurablight and Pestilence host will scale just as well. Azurablight would be more balanced with the lose of axe bleeds, the 1/second dot on blade cloak and orb changes but they would still would be. Stacking this much weapon damage will still leave builds with a ton of healing and since medium armor is already the strongest of the three armor types it would be a really rough patch.

Think of a StamDK Pestilence host build with Vates 2h, balrogh and titanborn. How strong would that be?

neferpitou73 · May 2021

doesurmindglow wrote: »

I'm also a ball group player and ball group organizer that is at first blush inclined to agree.

That said, I haven't yet tested with today's changes on the PTS to an extent that I can say for sure. I do think there will need to be diminishing returns of some kind (or, ugh, those much less ideal, a hard cap) that prevents a strong group comp from becoming outright imbalanced in practice. While there's probably less reason for concern that ball groups will simply adopt 70k HP Crimson/Almalexia/other OP defensive build comps that are largely unkillable, the ability to reach outlandish results might still be pretty feasible by stacking group spell damage buffs and dedicated uptime on war horn.

That said, I'm not fully sold that this is necessarily a bad thing in open-world PVP. There should be advantages to and rewards from organized group composition and coordinated, tactical gameplay. But it shouldn't be so far tilted that direction that a ball group is thoroughly without challenge, or that with a certain comp there is minimal need for highly engaged coordination.

It's wait and see right now but i do like the idea of diminishing returns or upward limits. I will admit today's numbers are closer to balanced and it does appear ZOS is taking its stated intentions pretty seriously.

Don't get me wrong I'm in favor of people joining ball groups and don't really agree with a lot of the complaints against ball groups. However, given the ridiculous nature of the procs and the fact that they've nerfed pretty much everything they can at this point, I think they're going to start taking a look at groups.

My prediction for the near future is that ball groups are going to run wild for the first 3 months after proc-maggeddon drops. Then when the inevitable nerf threads pop-up ZOS will do their typical overreaction, blaming ball groups instead of the over-tuned proc sets.

But maybe I'm just paranoid