Shouldn't your racial passives be void when you choose to become a vamp or WW?

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

I mean isn't a vampire and werewolf its own species? Shouldn't you be giving up your set racial passives or even skills when you decide to follow one of these two paths? For balancing sake this good be a good method Zenimax, think about it for people that are exploiting their base class racial passives to nullify damage that would normally be given to vampire or werewolve for balancing, this in turn gives no downside in later game to being a WW or Vampire, eliminate the use of base racial passives or even skill trees when people decide to become vamp or WW. And please I don't wanna hear people complain about how little difference it would make, when the truth is it WOULD make a huge difference at least early game and would definitely be one of those factors that would make you think twice about rolling for vamp, I mean come on the freakin Dummer racial should NOT assist with the vampires weakness.

Phyrdrin · April 2014

Vampire and WW aren't species. They are considered magical diseases.

Dunhilda · April 2014

So what race is a Vampire/WW then?

Racial are for the 10 in games races, Warewolf and Vampire are not races they're curses, or blessing depends on the one infected.

Only thing you have a real issue with is Fire resist, your point is based on PvP and not PvE.

And like most MMOS early games means nothing only end game.

murklor007neb18_ESO · April 2014

And for the werewolf, you are still "normal" when not shapeshifted.

Either way I would be happy if werewolves lost all racial skills. In fact, they should loose all class skills as well. And the other skills, no need for them. Give them the ability to kill other players in open world and do nothing else, make them playable mobs.

At least that would be more fun that the *** sorry ass excuse of a skill line.

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

So when Vampires talk about race, species and clans in the game, what race are they talking about exactly? When Hircue and his servants speak on the species, how is it not considered a race and only considered a disease?

niocwy · April 2014

First, I think you shouldn't post this thread in the Customer Support section of the forum.

Second, I agree WW and vampires lines need "some" adjustments, balancing and bug fixing; but what you're asking is not the solution. Also, WW and vampires have downsides.

Third, I can ask you the inverse question : Why should they lose their racial passive ? You may be a vampire/WW, but you're still a Dunmer/orc/Etc.

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

Its in the customer support section cause its an issue that would need to be addressed, a nerf is coming eventually, I'm just posting what I think is something that needs to be addressed, also the reason for losing the racial passive? Simple, a downside to going vampire or WW as it stands right now everyone who is able to is switching over to one or the other.

Dev · April 2014

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

I mean isn't a vampire and werewolf its own species?

No, it is a disease contracted by contact.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

Shouldn't you be giving up your set racial passives or even skills when you decide to follow one of these two paths?

Nope, wouldn't make sense.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

For balancing sake this good be a good method Zenimax, think about it for people that are exploiting their base class racial passives to nullify damage that would normally be given to vampire or werewolve for balancing, this in turn gives no downside in later game to being a WW or Vampire, eliminate the use of base racial passives or even skill trees when people decide to become vamp or WW.

Some people would call this an effective strategy. There is still downside, but it is reduced through careful planning.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

And please I don't wanna hear people complain

Then why are you posting or reading a forum? Complaining is what these are about after all.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

I mean come on the freakin Dummer racial should NOT assist with the vampires weakness.

Lol sounds like someone got owned in PVP by a dunmar vamp and is here crying about it.

two races have traits which help: Dunmar for Vamps, Bosmer for WW. there is still the fighters guild which has the unavoidable damage moves.

If you really want balance then they should remove the fire/poison weaknesses all together. A Mage doesn't get a weakness, nor Fighter guild member, or even an undaunted... but for Vamp/WW they need a 50% weakness?

On top of that you want to nerf them even more by removing the racials?

If you want fairness, why not have a severe magic damage penalty for heavy armor and lightning? or piercing damage for medium armor? Light armor already bleeds all over the place so there wouldn't be a real difference there.

Vamps & WW are supernatural creatures with direct ties to the daedric prince they are cursed from. they should be stronger then the average mortal, and I feel the weakness should be removed entirely.

Soloeus · April 2014

As a Breton Vampire, I am still a Breton.

ralurielb16_ESO · April 2014

Soloeus wrote: »

As a Breton Vampire, I am still a Breton.

This...

Maybe a better question is why can Vampires still eat/drink normal food.

Faolanhart · April 2014

I don’t really see an issue. This is why we have the Fighter’s Guild.
I mean High Elves will make better mages than say Nords if you counter in their racial passives.
Khajiit will make better stealth focused Nightblades than say Orcs.
You might as well remove all racial passives in general because some will be better for curtain builds than others & personally I wouldn't want that.
But I don’t know how many people play that way, at least those who are Elder Scrolls fans first & MMO fans second.
I chose Argonian because I always play as an Argonian & I chose werewolf because werewolves are cooler than vampires in my opinion. Then I added my poison resist racial because I had that option so why wouldn’t I?

Sakiri · April 2014

ralurielb16_ESO wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

As a Breton Vampire, I am still a Breton.

This...

Maybe a better question is why can Vampires still eat/drink normal food.

They dont need to eat normal food and gain no actual nutrients from it, but many still enjoy the taste of food therefore eat it.

Plus it lets them blend in better.

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

Well as it stands there is no downside to becoming a vampire, the "fighters" guild tree only accounts for that tree, skills that don't seem to make much difference when confronted in PVP, the fire weakness a problem? then roll Drummner while equipping the 1000 fire resist ring, boom weakness problem solved. You can't very well sit there and say that this isn't an issue, the exact same thing can be done with the weakness for WW, though its not needed as much.

WraithAzraiel · April 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

ralurielb16_ESO wrote: »

Soloeus wrote: »

As a Breton Vampire, I am still a Breton.

This...

Maybe a better question is why can Vampires still eat/drink normal food.

They dont need to eat normal food and gain no actual nutrients from it, but many still enjoy the taste of food therefore eat it.

Plus it lets them blend in better.

Right and the lily-white complexion and bloodshot eyes doesn't harm this at all

"Sir, how would you like your steak prepared today?"

"O-Negative, if you please."

"...?"

Kaiem · April 2014

People insisting vampires and werewolves should be massively stronger than non weres and vamps need to wake up and remember this is an MMO. If you make weres and vamps stronger than those who aren't with no weaknesses then people have to be one in order to remain competitive. The minute that happens the game is in trouble.

Do vampires and werewolves in the eso lore still consider themselves a member of their race or not? I don't know the lore well enough to say for certain but in every single other book/film/game etc vampires and werewolves no longer consider themselves human once they have the disease so why would it be different here?

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

Kaiem wrote: »

Do vampires and werewolves in the eso lore still consider themselves a member of their race or not? I don't know the lore well enough to say for certain but in every single other book/film/game etc vampires and werewolves no longer consider themselves human once they have the disease so why would it be different here?

Exactly my point, I was just offering up an easy solution that would have a legit background to it, I mean they could just nerf vampire and ww and say, all of a sudden you get weaker for no apparent reason, or they could offer an explanation that might actually work with the traditional lore, oh your a vamp or WW, then you no longer get to reap the benefits of your racial tree since your no longer a "pure" Breton...etc...etc..

Neferath · April 2014

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

Well as it stands there is no downside to becoming a vampire, the "fighters" guild tree only accounts for that tree, skills that don't seem to make much difference when confronted in PVP, the fire weakness a problem? then roll Drummner while equipping the 1000 fire resist ring, boom weakness problem solved. You can't very well sit there and say that this isn't an issue, the exact same thing can be done with the weakness for WW, though its not needed as much.

Well first of all, it's not the fault of those who decide to become vampires or werewolves if many people refuse to train and use the warriors guild skill tree or the mages guild skill tree. Actually, both of them warriors and magesguild trees, offer a lot of skills that are far superior than vamp or ww skills.

It's a matter of personal decisions and not a matter of game balancing. Vampires and werwolves will have an advantage during pvp sessions as long as people refuse to use the warriors guild skills or basics like stuns or Negate Magic.

Once this changes and it most likely will very soon, people will realise that their super vamp or werwolve just lost 85% of his total hitpoints with the first silverbolt that did hit him.

Honestly believe me, i planned my main char as a dunmer vamp long before the beta weekends started in january and through all that time till now, i never ever saw a weekness for my self because of the increased fire damage i take or the reduced health reg. I knew and i know that iam able to counter / negate that.

But ... and this is the actual "real" drawback for every single vampire or werwolve out there ... i fear players who skilled their warriors skill tree and i always will since they are able to almost oneshot me regardless of their level.

So seriously, people should rethink about their playing style rather than ranting and crying for nerfs. If you want to go out hunting down vampires or werwolves during pvp, train and use your warriors skill tree. It's meant exactly for this purpose.

You wouldnt go to a shooting wielding a knive would you?

So why do you think it's wise to attack vampires or werwolves with skills that arent meant for this purpose?

Phyrdrin · April 2014

Dev wrote: »

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

I mean isn't a vampire and werewolf its own species?

No, it is a disease contracted by contact.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

Shouldn't you be giving up your set racial passives or even skills when you decide to follow one of these two paths?

Nope, wouldn't make sense.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

For balancing sake this good be a good method Zenimax, think about it for people that are exploiting their base class racial passives to nullify damage that would normally be given to vampire or werewolve for balancing, this in turn gives no downside in later game to being a WW or Vampire, eliminate the use of base racial passives or even skill trees when people decide to become vamp or WW.

Some people would call this an effective strategy. There is still downside, but it is reduced through careful planning.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

And please I don't wanna hear people complain

Then why are you posting or reading a forum? Complaining is what these are about after all.

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

I mean come on the freakin Dummer racial should NOT assist with the vampires weakness.

Lol sounds like someone got owned in PVP by a dunmar vamp and is here crying about it.

two races have traits which help: Dunmar for Vamps, Bosmer for WW. there is still the fighters guild which has the unavoidable damage moves.

If you really want balance then they should remove the fire/poison weaknesses all together. A Mage doesn't get a weakness, nor Fighter guild member, or even an undaunted... but for Vamp/WW they need a 50% weakness?

On top of that you want to nerf them even more by removing the racials?

If you want fairness, why not have a severe magic damage penalty for heavy armor and lightning? or piercing damage for medium armor? Light armor already bleeds all over the place so there wouldn't be a real difference there.

Vamps & WW are supernatural creatures with direct ties to the daedric prince they are cursed from. they should be stronger then the average mortal, and I feel the weakness should be removed entirely.

This is a brilliant response - fair and very amusing at the same time

I do disagree about removing the weakness. For balance reasons, I think it should remain. Vampires can already walk in the sun after all. This, mind you, coming from a rank 10 vampire.

I am personally tired of people complaining about vampires and werewolves in the game with reasons such as "they are overpowered". We are not for several reasons:

1. We are bugged to all heck. Our abilities do not behave like they are supposed to a large portion of the time.
2. You can really own us with Fighter's Guild abilities if we are not careful.

Here's the funny thing - the skilled players will learn to make a disadvantage into a minor handicap that they can work with. It takes practice and planning. We've reconsidered our strategy. Now, maybe it's time for you mortals to do the same and up the challenge instead of crying about who is OP :P

Nox_Aeterna · April 2014

Wish the devs would FORCE on all players the vampire problems , then we would see if they would they would come here and say they are not an issue heh.

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

You would have to dedicate an entire skill set just to go hunting ww and vampires in PVP, and not sure if you realize but the Vamps are incredibly broken and OP in PVP right now because people are taking advantage of skills that can nullify the weaknesses, And you might think people are cry nerf but in reality you guys are cowering and trying to sweep the issue under the rug and hope that it continues to go "ignored" by zenimax, the reality of the situation is they have already commented in other threads and have stated that they will be addressing the issue with Vamps and WW, so yeah nerf's are likely incoming, I just wanted to put a suggestion out there that would at least not break away from the lore of the game....even though its already done that a few times with the games playstyle and mechanics.

Dunhilda · April 2014

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Wish the devs would FORCE on all players the vampire problems , then we would see if they would they would come here and say they are not an issue heh.

No we would just quit and leave the buggy game to rot in MMO hell if we were forced.

No one forced you to go vamp.

Nox_Aeterna · April 2014

Dunhilda wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Wish the devs would FORCE on all players the vampire problems , then we would see if they would they would come here and say they are not an issue heh.

No we would just quit and leave the buggy game to rot in MMO hell if we were forced.

No one forced you to go vamp.

I deal with being a vamp.

What i find freaking annoying , is having to deal with a bunch of people who are bad at PvP and keep dying , then blame on the other player having the edge , not because they are just plain bad. To begin with , leaving being a vamp aside , the PvP is not meant to be fair.

People that are not vamps should not allowed to use any word related to it in balance threads , problem solved , there , either you become a vamp and test it yourself , or you dont talk about it at all. Happy? Nobody forced you to be one , nobody had to deal with your opinions without any experience either.

Neferath · April 2014

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

You would have to dedicate an entire skill set just to go hunting ww and vampires in PVP ...

Well this might be a surprise now but ... i need to dedicate an entire skill set too in order to play as a vampire.

... and not sure if you realize but the Vamps are incredibly broken and OP in PVP right now because people are taking advantage of skills that can nullify the weaknesses...

Believe me one thing. Playing as a vampire i "DO" realize that they are totaly broken. Not a single one of my passives is working as it is supposed too. Actually i would need to relogg every single time after i switched the zone or died in order to make them work again.

The only real issue here that gives vamps an unintended advantage here is mist form since it isnt supposed to allow me getting healed while it is active and yes, this needs to be fixed.

...And you might think people are cry nerf but in reality you guys are cowering and trying to sweep the issue under the rug and hope that it continues to go "ignored" by zenimax...

Actually i might think that yes, but in reality i see guys that refuse to use different skills sets for different situations despite the fact that zenimax even did put a note regarding that at their loading screens.
Perhaps you remember their hint that several creatures out there might be immune to several of your skills and other larger groups might be less affected by them.

Naturally this also counts in if it comes down to several player races and classes. Nothing but an ordinary thing at every single mmo out there.

The keyword here is "adapt" and belive me if i say that every player who chosed to play as a vamp or werewolve was forced to adept and drop some of his most loved and most used skills too.

...the reality of the situation is they have already commented in other threads and have stated that they will be addressing the issue with Vamps and WW, so yeah nerf's are likely incoming, I just wanted to put a suggestion out there that would at least not break away from the lore of the game....even though its already done that a few times with the games playstyle and mechanics.

Well these are nothing more than assumptions and i therefor wont comment them or go into that.

Phyrdrin · April 2014

Kn1ghtmare wrote: »

You would have to dedicate an entire skill set just to go hunting ww and vampires in PVP, and not sure if you realize but the Vamps are incredibly broken and OP in PVP right now because people are taking advantage of skills that can nullify the weaknesses, And you might think people are cry nerf but in reality you guys are cowering and trying to sweep the issue under the rug and hope that it continues to go "ignored" by zenimax, the reality of the situation is they have already commented in other threads and have stated that they will be addressing the issue with Vamps and WW, so yeah nerf's are likely incoming, I just wanted to put a suggestion out there that would at least not break away from the lore of the game....even though its already done that a few times with the games playstyle and mechanics.

So taking away someone's racials isn't breaking the lore? It'll definitely break one thing for sure: logic.

Please excuse the bad example, but: If you have cancer or any other infectious disease, does that stop you from being a human? Does that stop you from being any other race? Does your skin change color or your culture disappear? No. Having that disease doesn't take away who you are.

To answer your other point - Yeah, nerfs are coming. They will always come because there will always be people crying "OP, OP!" or "Exploit!" when they come up against a obstacle they can't defeat. Gonna use another terrible example here, but look at rogues in WoW or almost any other game. Those classes are often the hardest to play yet they are always being nerfed. Why? Because players make an effort to find their niche and expand upon it while other casuals don't have time to put in the work to counter that. There's nothing wrong with balance here, only a difference in the amount of time people put into something. Not that these "nerfs" scare us, really. We'll just re-evaluate our strategy and work from there. That's all part of the fun.

No, you don't have to "dedicate" a special skill line to fight vampires in PvP. But, there is a reason you can, you know, drag and drop different skills to your bars. I switch out skills based on the opponents I encounter. This game gives you a lot of freedom to do that.

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

Did...did you just compare the WW and Vamp conditions as Cancer? Sure if cancer gave you super human strength and abilities, or allowed you to transform your body into a vapor substance that allowed you to pass through objects, and ya people have confirmed the most effective way to take down a vampire is the fighters guild skills, unless your a templar, Backlash>>Vampires Bane>>Silver bolts>>Silver Bolts>>Binding javilin>>Silver bolts>>Silver Bolts, although only problem with this method is the fact vampires don't usually run alone, and most of the Vet 5-10 vamps have all the gear required to nullify the weaknesses, that Fire resist 1000 ring for example, sure you can "adapt" to a playstyle, but when you've pretty much guarded all the other bases you are no longer adapted you have exceeded, hence why people cry OP.

Neferath · April 2014

@Kn1ghtmare‌

Well since you've found two other arguments against vamps and are not trying to negate anything i've said by now, i take it as "having been able to becalm some of your fears and clarify the one or other misunderstanding". Very nice.

So lets see if we are able to have a closer look at the next 2 issues you got.

... and ya people have confirmed the most effective way to take down a vampire is the fighters guild skills, unless your a templar, Backlash>>Vampires Bane>>Silver bolts>>Silver Bolts>>Binding javilin>>Silver bolts>>Silver Bolts, although only problem with this method is the fact vampires don't usually run alone...

Hm yes, this is of course a problem. Vampires that are playing as a team while doing pvp.
Hence they are more ppl you would need more shots or more cycles of this particular skill cycle you've mentioned.
Actually i would suggest to do exactly what almost all people do while fighting in Cyrodiil. Form a Team or join one and the problem of beeing outnumbered is easily negated.

...and most of the Vet 5-10 vamps have all the gear required to nullify the weaknesses, that Fire resist 1000 ring for example...

Isn't it quite common that players have at least a lot of the gear they want or need once they've reached the higher vet ranks regardless of beeing a vampire/werewolve or not?
I at least, thought so. If we assume that this is correct i cant see anything unbalanced in that since every player has the possiblity to grind for equip during pve in order to get some nice things for pvp before he jumps into the action.

If on the other hand the problem should be that those players are allready vet 5-10 and outleveled you - and believe me or not, beeing outleveled is a serious problem during pvp - the simple answer would be to go out and do some quests or whatever you prefer in order to level up your character.

Both isn't related to vampires or werwolves at all and therefore, hopefully, your concerns regarding to these points are decreased to some certain level now too.

Orchish · April 2014

Werewolf is so incredibly weak right now i honestly didn't think my passives even worked when being transformed.

Phyrdrin · April 2014

@Neferath keep hitting him with logic, but logic is useless to someone who can only see black and white. ^_^

Kn1ghtmare · April 2014

Oh I need no convincing, as Ive said repeatedly I was only putting out a possible solution that the dev's might consider, doesn't matter to me if anyone takes notice of it or not my PVE/PVP won't change or suffer.

Sleepwalker · April 2014

Race and species are not at all the same classification. You resolved your own discussion in the first paragraph of the original post.

Neferath · April 2014

@Kn1ghtmare

Please don't get me wrong here, my intention is all but to convince you to anything. I follow the simple rule that everyone should play the way he want's to play - taking into account of course that he has to grant the same rights to every other player as well.

My intention is to point out all the missunderstandings and utterly wrong rumors that can be read here at the forums if it comes down to vampires and the silly idea that they are or could be totally OP. There are of course some combinations and builds that make a very strong and challenging vamp in pvp.
I would never even think about to decline this.

Also i admid, that if your character isn't properly set up for the purpose to hunt down vampires - and it should be if you wish to since hunting down other players for the reason that they are vampires isn't part of the casual gameplay that everyone has to go through just like pvp in general isn't, but only a personal desire that should afford that you build your character properly in order to do so - some vampire builds may look OP at the first glance since you simply dont have the right skills equiped to your weapon bar. Especially Sorc+Vamp and DK+Vamp are very challenging opponents but you should always take into consideration that there are builds ready to use in this game to counter them.