MurderMostFoul wrote: »

remove the free damage/healing BS from PvP, but allow all the other conditional sets for greater variety.

And what, give Free Sustain Procs to classes with great built-in damage?

Or Free Defense Procs to classes with great built-in sustain?

With scaled Damage and Healing Procs, those Sustain and Defense Proc sets will be the only "free" ones, no?

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

remove the free damage/healing BS from PvP, but allow all the other conditional sets for greater variety.

And what, give Free Sustain Procs to classes with great built-in damage?

Or Free Defense Procs to classes with great built-in sustain?

With scaled Damage and Healing Procs, those Sustain and Defense Proc sets will be the only "free" ones, no?

At least with stat procs, the fundamentals of damage and healing are again governed by skills and the GCD. Damage and healing procs defy this core balancing factor, often resulting in a oversized emphasis on wearing specific sets rather than deftly activating skills and abilities.

Would removing damage and healing proc sets hurt some classes more than others? Yes, but free damage and healing sets shouldn't be used as a band-aid for class balance. Without them muddying the water, achieving true class balance for PVP should be easier.

Well I didn't mean Stat Procs like 7th or PA, I meant like Engine Guardian, Warlock, Trappings, Bloodspawn, Pariah, on and on.

All of the Delayed Burst skills also have a damage proc which escapes the GCD, right? So what that it took a GCD a few seconds prior to activate it, the whole concept of this Delayed Burst is that some of the damage escapes the normal temporal constraints of dealing damage. This is why we see such a strong imbalance between the classes with strong Delayed Burst and without in No Procrodiil, don't you think? These sorts of skills, and the classes that have them, also alleviate the necessity of activating skills compared to the more difficult to play classes, to produce an overall similar level of HPS and DPS. It's not just that the 3 stronger classes hit harder with these skills, you simply have to work harder on some classes to even come close to the same level of HPS/DPS.

Just points for discussion. I can go either way with all of this, I like playing Necro well enough.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well I didn't mean Stat Procs like 7th or PA, I meant like Engine Guardian, Warlock, Trappings, Bloodspawn, Pariah, on and on.

I feel fine about all conditional sets that don't directly heal or do damage. (Honestly, the weak damage and healing procs are not a problem either, but they are on the same spectrum as the problematic ones, and ought to be excluded as part of an overall restriction.)

Urzigurumash wrote: »

All of the Delayed Burst skills also have a damage proc which escapes the GCD, right? So what that it took a GCD a few seconds prior to activate it, the whole concept of this Delayed Burst is that some of the damage escapes the normal temporal constraints of dealing damage. This is why we see such a strong imbalance between the classes with strong Delayed Burst and without in No Procrodiil, don't you think? These sorts of skills, and the classes that have them, also alleviate the necessity of activating skills compared to the more difficult to play classes, to produce an overall similar level of HPS and DPS. It's not just that the 3 stronger classes hit harder with these skills, you simply have to work harder on some classes to even come close to the same level of HPS/DPS.

Just points for discussion. I can go either way with all of this, I like playing Necro well enough.

Totally agree. Delayed damage burst skills very potent, and set some classes above others. But they still fit into the global cooldown scheme. The solution here is to find a way for all classes to have skills that allow for delayed burst, albeit in a variety of ways to avoid homogenization.

Just giving everyone access to sets that do large amounts of burst damage on top of an activated skill feels like a shortcut that reduces the overall intricacy of player versus player combat, and avoids the needed work of class balancing.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Well I didn't mean Stat Procs like 7th or PA, I meant like Engine Guardian, Warlock, Trappings, Bloodspawn, Pariah, on and on.

I feel fine about all conditional sets that don't directly heal or do damage. (Honestly, the weak damage and healing procs are not a problem either, but they are on the same spectrum as the problematic ones, and ought to be excluded as part of an overall restriction.)

Urzigurumash wrote: »

All of the Delayed Burst skills also have a damage proc which escapes the GCD, right? So what that it took a GCD a few seconds prior to activate it, the whole concept of this Delayed Burst is that some of the damage escapes the normal temporal constraints of dealing damage. This is why we see such a strong imbalance between the classes with strong Delayed Burst and without in No Procrodiil, don't you think? These sorts of skills, and the classes that have them, also alleviate the necessity of activating skills compared to the more difficult to play classes, to produce an overall similar level of HPS and DPS. It's not just that the 3 stronger classes hit harder with these skills, you simply have to work harder on some classes to even come close to the same level of HPS/DPS.

Just points for discussion. I can go either way with all of this, I like playing Necro well enough.

Totally agree. Delayed damage burst skills very potent, and set some classes above others. But they still fit into the global cooldown scheme. The solution here is to find a way for all classes to have skills that allow for delayed burst, albeit in a variety of ways to avoid homogenization.

Just giving everyone access to sets that do large amounts of burst damage on top of an activated skill feels like a shortcut that reduces the overall intricacy of player versus player combat, and avoids the needed work of class balancing.

Yeah, I still think there are ways classes could be relevant without Delayed Burst, DoT also escapes the GCD obviously, but this is all another subject.

My point was really that I just can't separate Engine Guardian from the Dirty Rat set. They're both on the same level to me.

I would be completely fine with limiting all sets beyond the 19 sets in Cyro to DK, Templar, and NB. This would be reasonably balanced, from my view.

Lol, engine guardian is definitely one of the hardest to categorize given it's multi-effect nature. I say exclude it too! It is a healing proc (1/3 of the time at least). And I hate the cheap body blocking it provides.

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a handful of comments, we would like to remind everyone that all posts should stay on the topic at hand.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

You should come into PvP you would be made