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Suggestion for proc scaling before live fiasco when it releases
KashyyyK240
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I applaud your choice of proc sets each scaling with different stats based on the direction the player decides to take with his build. It still needs a few tweaks for some sets, but I think it's the right direction to remove slapping 3 different procs and achieve survivability+burst damage+sustain on the same build.
BUT
There's a BUT.
Why have you decided to make procs scale indefinitely with said stats? I already have knowledge of some proc combos reaching 109,000 damage tooltips!!!!
I believe there should be a hardcap to proc scaling which should be set somewhere at a maximum +10-15% of the tooltip they have now on live for a golden set. This balance won't work if I can still mix 3 procs which scale on similar stats and bump their tooltips to insane values.
Right now there's so many proc combos like my example above with 109k damage tooltip, where the character stats are not glasscannon, like 30k hp and 9k weapon damage while still having a 109k damage tooltip. I wouldn't call that balanced in any way.
BUT
There's a BUT.
Why have you decided to make procs scale indefinitely with said stats? I already have knowledge of some proc combos reaching 109,000 damage tooltips!!!!
I believe there should be a hardcap to proc scaling which should be set somewhere at a maximum +10-15% of the tooltip they have now on live for a golden set. This balance won't work if I can still mix 3 procs which scale on similar stats and bump their tooltips to insane values.
Right now there's so many proc combos like my example above with 109k damage tooltip, where the character stats are not glasscannon, like 30k hp and 9k weapon damage while still having a 109k damage tooltip. I wouldn't call that balanced in any way.
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Rebiludo✭✭✭I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversity
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Sheuib✭✭✭✭I have some doubts on those type of builds and their true viability. Those builds are obviously completely sacrificing penetration to get those high tool tip numbers.
Sure you can do that with the two handed ultimate but that means you have a 5 second window to get a kill. Any descent player getting hit with the two handed ultimate immediately blocks, roll dodges, etc.
Yeah they will wreck non-pvpers out in cyrodiil that have no resistances. But, pvpers will have a descent amount of resistances and health that will significantly reduce the effect.
In other words don't base a build on a tool tip number alone.1 -
KashyyyK240✭✭✭I have some doubts on those type of builds and their true viability. Those builds are obviously completely sacrificing penetration to get those high tool tip numbers.
Sure you can do that with the two handed ultimate but that means you have a 5 second window to get a kill. Any descent player getting hit with the two handed ultimate immediately blocks, roll dodges, etc.
Yeah they will wreck non-pvpers out in cyrodiil that have no resistances. But, pvpers will have a descent amount of resistances and health that will significantly reduce the effect.
In other words don't base a build on a tool tip number alone.
What 2h ultimate mate? I'm talking proc sets here.
What do you need extra penetration for when you can play stamtard with sharpened maul?
Take that vateshran 2hander that scales with wd, which used to deal 10k burst and put it on any 8k wd build which has tons of healing and tons of mitigation from medium armor master race.
The scaling is insane rn and needs capping.2 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversity
I design ball group comps. I'm practically salivating over these changes. Gankers taking advantage of this should be the least of people's worries. Imagine a ball group running around with 7-8k weapon damage 33k VD procs 30k+ resistances. That's what's going to happen. It's going to be great for us but stink for everyone else.
As an example here's the tooltip on one of the bombers I was designing. Keep in my that this is without Balorgh
ZOS just needed to nerf a select few proc sets. Crimson, malacath, etc. They redesigned the whole system instead. If they want to go through with this they need to increase the base damage but decrease the scaling factor. Or have it not scale linearly and put some diminishing returns into play.
I don't mean to sound too negative on these changes because I think it's an interesting idea but the scaling rn is just completely insane.
Edited by neferpitou73 on April 27, 2021 12:03AM9 -
KashyyyK240✭✭✭neferpitou73 wrote: »I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversity
I design ball group comps. I'm practically salivating over these changes. Gankers taking advantage of this should be the least of people's worries. Imagine a ball group running around with 7-8k weapon damage 33k VD procs 30k+ resistances. That's what's going to happen. It's going to be great for us but stink for everyone else.
As an example here's the tooltip on one of the bombers I was designing. Keep in my that this is without Balorgh
ZOS just needed to nerf a select few proc sets. Crimson, malacath, etc. They redesigned the whole system instead. If they want to go through with this they need to increase the base damage but decrease the scaling factor. Or have it not scale linearly and put some diminishing returns into play.
I don't mean to sound too negative on these changes because I think it's an interesting idea but the scaling rn is just completely insane.
That's exactly what I'm afraid of. You posted a pic with resistance capped 28k hp build with 7.4k WD and unrealistic damage tooltip.
This "balance" change does the opposite of forcing you to build in one direction, when you can build in each and every direction and with a bit of theory crafting reach proc bursts that you were simply unable to do until now due to procs being capped at golden gear tooltip value....4 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭What app is that tooltip generated from? How do you know the app is accurate to what actually shows up in-game?2 -
KashyyyK240✭✭✭WhyMustItBe wrote: »What app is that tooltip generated from? How do you know the app is accurate to what actually shows up in-game?
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor
Get PTS and try it yourself if you don't believe it works. It's free to download
I'm even more scared of this now. BALANCED LOL
Edited by KashyyyK240 on April 28, 2021 1:29AM2 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭The scaling on the Almalexia's Mercy set is just bugged at the moment. You are supposed to have to reach 38k stam/mag to reach the original value of the set and I'm at 22k stamina and the set is already giving me 10k healing when it should be closer to 2k.
Also kind of tired of seeing these unrealistic tooltips where people go into a build editor and turn on every raid buff. I can see the player has the transmutation buff so I wonder what other buffs they have that I can't see.
They should honestly just put a softcap on the proc values at around the same values they have now and put an end to it. Making it so malacath doesn't work on procs would also help.Edited by Teeba_Shei on April 28, 2021 1:57AM1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »The scaling on the Almalexia's Mercy set is just bugged at the moment. You are supposed to have to reach 38k stam/mag to reach the original value of the set and I'm at 22k stamina and the set is already giving me 10k healing when it should be closer to 2k.
Also kind of tired of seeing these unrealistic tooltips where people go into a build editor and turn on every raid buff. I can see the player has the transmutation buff so I wonder what other buffs they have that I can't see.
They should honestly just put a softcap on the proc values at around the same values they have now and put an end to it. Making it so malacath doesn't work on procs would also help.
While some numbers are unrealistic
A 40k tooltip crimson is realistic2 -
divnyi✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversity
Ok look. 3 procs on NB without stats + 2 spammables (and imbue weapon) now damage approx 25k without ulti, with most of the damages coming from procs. Approx 10k from skills, approx 15k from procs. Then take double that tooltips and it means 40k players can be down without ulti, and litearally everything but goliath with incap. And I didn't even count simmering frenzy in.
Assassins seriously limit build variety from the other end of the archetype spectrum. Everything that doesn't have 27k+ now dies to NBs, which drives people off light armor and which makes heavy builds so attractive in the first place. With procs this good it will be "oops all nightblades" meta.Edited by divnyi on April 28, 2021 2:34AM2 -
Merforum✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »The scaling on the Almalexia's Mercy set is just bugged at the moment. You are supposed to have to reach 38k stam/mag to reach the original value of the set and I'm at 22k stamina and the set is already giving me 10k healing when it should be closer to 2k.
Also kind of tired of seeing these unrealistic tooltips where people go into a build editor and turn on every raid buff. I can see the player has the transmutation buff so I wonder what other buffs they have that I can't see.
They should honestly just put a softcap on the proc values at around the same values they have now and put an end to it. Making it so malacath doesn't work on procs would also help.
While some numbers are unrealistic
A 40k tooltip crimson is realistic
Did you go on PTS to check this, with 60K health I only get about 20K tooltip on crimson. I will double check tomorrow but don't know where you are getting this number, also let's remember in PVP it is HALF.1 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭Waffennacht wrote: »Synapsis123 wrote: »The scaling on the Almalexia's Mercy set is just bugged at the moment. You are supposed to have to reach 38k stam/mag to reach the original value of the set and I'm at 22k stamina and the set is already giving me 10k healing when it should be closer to 2k.
Also kind of tired of seeing these unrealistic tooltips where people go into a build editor and turn on every raid buff. I can see the player has the transmutation buff so I wonder what other buffs they have that I can't see.
They should honestly just put a softcap on the proc values at around the same values they have now and put an end to it. Making it so malacath doesn't work on procs would also help.
While some numbers are unrealistic
A 40k tooltip crimson is realistic
Please show me that build because I tried to scale crimson and even with 37k health, CP, and malcath it was only a 10k proc. Are you saying there is a way to get 120k health? If true it sounds like the scaling once you're past the soft cap to reach the original tooltips they've set is way off.Edited by Teeba_Shei on April 28, 2021 10:12AM3 -
doesurmindglow✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is most of the people applauding the changes, or at least insisting they won't be a big deal, are usually self-identified 1vXers and/or solo players that are eager to put together what they imagine to be an unkillable build for kiting and bursting casual pugs with procs.
To be fair, the scaling as it is might allow them to do that. For a while. Maybe a week or too.
But those of us who actually do ball group composition are raising the red flag that we will be absolutely overtuned and impossible to counter in PVP; especially when the procs as proposed are fully combined with experienced cc and group damage mitigation. I'm not even sure siege will be effective against organized groups with a solid mix of these insane healing procs next patch.
If pushed live, this will not be a solo PVPer's patch, no matter how good the tooltip looks. It absolutely will not. The only means to counter tooltips like these is with a combination of other overtuned tooltips, which means an organized and probably pretty large group running the same sets and then some.Guildmaster : The Wild Hunt (formerly Aka Baka) : AD PC/NA2 -
Teeba_Shei✭✭✭✭✭
✭A good ball group is already uncounterable. Ball groups have had the opportunity to use procs for awhile and haven't because its easier to build pure stats and burst down players.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »A good ball group is already uncounterable. Ball groups have had the opportunity to use procs for awhile and haven't because its easier to build pure stats and burst down players.
This is both untrue and incorrect...2 -
Marcus_Thracius✭✭✭✭The simplest solution is almost always the best , keep procs out of pvp
Tadaaa its a miracle everyone , pveers and pvpers are happy1 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
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Heavy Malacath block n' proc will have more free damage than ever, and one shot gankers are gonna have 30k HP and armor. Maybe they'll somehow balance each other out? Either way, not a product I'm spending money on.I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversityPC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas0 -
KashyyyK240✭✭✭doesurmindglow wrote: »The funny thing is most of the people applauding the changes, or at least insisting they won't be a big deal, are usually self-identified 1vXers and/or solo players that are eager to put together what they imagine to be an unkillable build for kiting and bursting casual pugs with procs.
To be fair, the scaling as it is might allow them to do that. For a while. Maybe a week or too.
But those of us who actually do ball group composition are raising the red flag that we will be absolutely overtuned and impossible to counter in PVP; especially when the procs as proposed are fully combined with experienced cc and group damage mitigation. I'm not even sure siege will be effective against organized groups with a solid mix of these insane healing procs next patch.
If pushed live, this will not be a solo PVPer's patch, no matter how good the tooltip looks. It absolutely will not. The only means to counter tooltips like these is with a combination of other overtuned tooltips, which means an organized and probably pretty large group running the same sets and then some.
THIS!!! And it's not only ballgroups and bombers that could be op. Imagine any small scale casual pvp'er group slapping one of these wombo combo proc builds where the only prerequisite is having enough of said stat to reach insane tooltips (not only threshold, but like go above and beyond resonable values). Not even 1vX'ers will enjoy playing against those setups.
I don't understand some content creators advocating for diminishing returns after threshold, as this is not a proper fix. You still get rewarded for building into certain stats, even with a lower scaling factor on your procs after reaching threshold, because stats like weapon damage or health are gonna be useful to your build no matter what returns you get from it on proc tooltip.
Who would say no to 600 more WD just because his procs scale for 0.1x of that stat after threshold? Just lol...xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Heavy Malacath block n' proc will have more free damage than ever, and one shot gankers are gonna have 30k HP and armor. Maybe they'll somehow balance each other out? Either way, not a product I'm spending money on.I think is really fine. Proc-set with heavy armor was a cancer meta. Proc set for ganker is a very good meta. Ganker = diversity
ALSO THIS!
I won't renew my subscription and will hold on buying Blackwood until this gets balanced for live. I don't want to pay ZOS for letting me have a go in a broken playground that they refuse to acknowledge and fix.
Edited by KashyyyK240 on April 28, 2021 3:35PM1 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭The proc sets that scales out of WP/SD or Max magicka/Max stamina
Outside of some bugged sets, the procs are overperforming but not to the point some content creators trying to suggest.
Most of of the shown builds are not realistic on a real PvP environment.
However, I do think that some scaling twiks are needed. I don't understand why they had to split the scaling by making it WP/SD for damage, magicka/ stamina for healing. This split just creates disparities between stamina and magicka builds and reduce diversity. Moreover, it creates the option to Inflate one specific stat by sacrificing all other.
Why not just go with the same damage Formula every skill in the game is based of ?
a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+c (where a, b, and c are coefficients) . Make coefficients so that 5,000 SD/WD AND 35K Magicka/Stamina will result with the same tooltip we have on live.
this will make scaling much more reasonable and reduce potential abuses. It will also make things much coherence and easy to understand.
Regarding sets that scales out of max HP or Resistances - They should really reconsider. The all point was to avoid tanky builds with high proc damage. Perhaps they need to a specific formula to tanky sets :
a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d(with different coefficients ).
It will make health a way to increase damage but not to the point you can forget your other stats.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lughlongarm wrote: »a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d(with different coefficients ).
It will make health a way to increase damage but not to the point you can forget your other stats.
As for these few proc sets which scale off defensive stats - giving them Weapon / Spell Damage scaling doesn't quite make sense for the sort of purpose they're supposed to fulfill in PvP.
What would make sense is giving them a massive unpurgeable snare ala Ironblood / Immovable. Not that they should suffer this snare in PvE.
Edited by Urzigurumash on April 28, 2021 4:46PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d(with different coefficients ).
It will make health a way to increase damage but not to the point you can forget your other stats.
As for these few proc sets which scale off defensive stats - giving them Weapon / Spell Damage scaling doesn't quite make sense for the sort of purpose they're supposed to fulfill in PvP.
What would make sense is giving them a massive unpurgeable snare ala Ironblood / Immovable. Not that they should suffer this snare in PvE.
Why not? Even a very tanky build will have like 3K WD/SD + 20K of Stamina/Magicka as base stats. Basically it all depends on the coefficients , You can twik it so that based on the formula of- a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d - will have the result:
4K WD/SD + 28k of Stamina/Magicka+40k HP will result with the same tooltip we have on live.
This kind of formula just normalize the scaling, so a build with 4K WD/SD + 28k of Stamina/Magicka + 100k hp will do around 35% damage more compared to what we have on live.Edited by Lughlongarm on April 28, 2021 5:16PM0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Urzigurumash wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d(with different coefficients ).
It will make health a way to increase damage but not to the point you can forget your other stats.
As for these few proc sets which scale off defensive stats - giving them Weapon / Spell Damage scaling doesn't quite make sense for the sort of purpose they're supposed to fulfill in PvP.
What would make sense is giving them a massive unpurgeable snare ala Ironblood / Immovable. Not that they should suffer this snare in PvE.
Why not? Even a very tanky build will have like 3K WD/SD + 20K of Stamina/Magicka as base stats. Basically it all depends on the coefficients , You can twik it so that based on the formula of- a*magicka/stamina + b*SP/WP+ Heal*c +d - will have the result:
4K WD/SD + 28k of Stamina/Magicka+40k HP will result with the same tooltip we have on live.
This kind of formula just normalize the scaling, so a build with 4K WD/SD + 28k of Stamina/Magicka + 100k hp will do around 35% damage more compared to what we have on live.
I think these specific few sets should only be viable on an actual tank build, like with terrible sustain, terrible mobility, low-damaging skills, weak group healing, all that. That lets these sets do what - in my opinion - they're intended for, which is to essentially function like Vicious Death, but in a completely different way. In order for them to have that sort of power they need to have significant drawbacks, and generally not be useable on any mobile DD-type build. Giving them Weapon Damage scaling doesn't quite fit in line with that - giving them a massive self-snare would, in my opinion.
That's not to say I don't generally think all of the procs should have dual stat scaling, and probably be able to crit, etc., just that I understand why these few are being treated unusually.
Edited by Urzigurumash on April 28, 2021 5:34PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
MacCait✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thes changes break so many builds in PvE. Just make a system that separates PvE from PvP and be dome with it... then keep balancing PvP for years to come while allowing the PvE side to remain FUN0 -
Faylestar✭✭✭Synapsis123 wrote: »Please show me that build because I tried to scale crimson and even with 37k health, CP, and malcath it was only a 10k proc. Are you saying there is a way to get 120k health? If true it sounds like the scaling once you're past the soft cap to reach the original tooltips they've set is way off.
People putting those together just assume they have every mundus and every major buff and every minor buff going at all times.
If someone claims they have tooltip numbers with capped armor and 7k weapon damage and 9.5k pen and 35k mainstat, they dont actually have that in-game, because its not possible, based on literally wearing the same gear they claim to have and having nowhere near those stats.
Its easily checkable by logging into the PTS, grabbing full gear sets, making the EXACT builds they claim to have and coming nowhere even close to the tooltips they claim.Edited by Faylestar on April 28, 2021 6:00PM0
