How can 3D map pin mods be legal? They replace skills

marshill88 · April 2021

I have thought about this argument:

harvestMap only shows all the possible locations
Keen eye shows actual locations
Therefore, HarvestMap is not a replacement for Keen Eye

This argument simply fails due to the limited number of possible locations.

If ZOS would randomize all nodes so that nodes were not preconfigured, then this argument would be valid. If every square on the map was a "possible location" then Keen Eye would be superior to HarvestMap.

Having harvest map active means you don't need Keen Eye. It really is the truth, and I know millions of players love HarvestMap and I know it will be vigorously defended (I expected to be pounced on making this thread), but rather than terminate HarvestMap, I would like ZOS to beef up keen eye skills so that HarvestMap can't compete with them.

marshill88 · April 2021

ASSERTION: There is no need for me to have a treasure chest keen eye whatsoever, the whole skill is nearly completely replaced by Harvest Map.

PROOF:

CHARACTER A: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Disabled.
CHARACTER B: Keen Eye Treasure Chests + Harvest Map Disabled.

In this run, Character A vastly outperformed Character B. I found 6 chests in 10 minutes. Character B found nothing in 10 minutes.

CHARACTER A: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Enabled
CHARACTER B: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Disabled

In this run, both characters performed the same. Having Keen Eye Treasure Chests enabled had no effect on the success of finding treasure.

CONCLUSION: Keen Eye Treasure Chests is inferior to HarvestMap in potency and ability to find treasure chests.

Kwoung · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

I spent skill points on having nodes highlighted. I downloaded the most popular map-pin mod called "harvest map" because I wanted to see where treasure chests were. First time I used it I saw that the chests themselves on the surface of the world had in-map 3 dimensional pins hovering over them. This rendered my skill I spent points on in Scrying (to have treasure chests glowing) completely useless. I don't see how this is allowable. It certainly feels like this mod is hacking the game client as it completely disrupts and makes irrelevant in game skill points.

Isn't a mod that replaces skill points taking it too far? ZOS, would you like to comment on why these mods are allowable?

Seriously man? You go from complaining about MapPins not doing the job for you to calling HarvestMap an exploit? I regret helping you out now, sheesh no good deed goes unpunished I guess.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7218757#Comment_7218757

Also, it in no way "replaces" those skills. HarvestMap doesn't always work and there are many chests I would have easily run past if I only relied on HarvestMap, the chest glow from the Antiquities line is the only reason I spotted them. Also, the skill line glow on flowers is almost a complete waste if you have grass set to Ultimate, so HarvestMap's pins help considerably in this area.

Not to mention, there are a *lot* of treasure chests buried in the geometry that I never saw spawned even though HarvestMap said they could be there, until I got the Antiquities line and saw the glow in the floor, rock, wall, etc... Until Antiquities I just assumed someone else looted it.

SilverBride · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

You miss the point, I don't want anyone using it...

I'm going to use it because it is legal, but it shouldn't be...

These are contradicting statements.

kringled_1 · April 2021

Apparently I've been exploiting the game this whole time by not using either harvest map or the antiquity skill line and just, you know, looking around.

FantasticFreddie · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

ASSERTION: There is no need for me to have a treasure chest keen eye whatsoever, the whole skill is nearly completely replaced by Harvest Map.

PROOF:

CHARACTER A: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Disabled.
CHARACTER B: Keen Eye Treasure Chests + Harvest Map Disabled.

In this run, Character A vastly outperformed Character B. I found 6 chests in 10 minutes. Character B found nothing in 10 minutes.

CHARACTER A: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Enabled
CHARACTER B: Harvest Map Enabled, Keen Eye Treasure Chests Disabled

In this run, both characters performed the same. Having Keen Eye Treasure Chests enabled had no effect on the success of finding treasure.

CONCLUSION: Keen Eye Treasure Chests is inferior to HarvestMap in potency and ability to find treasure chests.

So.
You spent less than an hour testing the difference between the addon and the passive, and have decided that that YUUUUUGE amount of time was enough to override players who have used the addon for years and still use and enjoy the passives

PizzaCat82 · April 2021

Addons really do make the chest/skyshard/lorebook grind ridiculously easy.

My thoughts are, would you want ZOS to make these indicators part of the base game?

It'd ruin the asthetic if they did.

Enodoc · April 2021

I also thought it was odd that ZOS allow add-ons to place floating 3D markers in the world, given how that could potentially be exploited for other means. I agree with the poster further up who said they look intrusive, but there's no advantage or disadvantage to other players because everyone can use it if they want to.

Theoretically I wouldn't mind if ZOS removed the ability to place 3D markers in the world - HarvestMap existed for years without them - as long as they don't remove the map component (which I find more useful anyway). But if people like them and they don't affect anything, I doubt ZOS is particularly concerned.

Kwoung · April 2021

I see a growing trend on the forum here lately... that someone who comes across something that literally has no affect on their gameplay at all, wants it removed or changed just because it makes the gameplay more enjoyable for others. It's almost like, I just discovered something really cool and useful that people love... Let's take it away from them and make them all sad!

I don't get it.

delphwind_ESO · April 2021

Starlock wrote: »

Reasons why I would never play this game on a computer. I don't mind cheat codes in single-player games, but in multiplayer games? Nah.

As was stated, it only puts pins where a node could be. The passive is still very much worthwhile. Personally I just use the passive, the mod is too unreliable. Its more efficient to learn the routes yourself.

But you just wanted to complain about the game, so ignore me.

ArchMikem · April 2021

TwinLamps wrote: »

Why cant we have nice things
Why are people so much against nice things
Why must every aspect of game be struggle for some people

Do you want the game to be nice, or do you want your hand held?

Seabluesky · April 2021

I'm impressed you've found every chest location in game! I haven't so Keen Eye is super useful. Of course, once I've found a new one Harvest Map places a bookmarked pin so that I don't have to memorize where I found previous chests. Also super useful. Your argument sounds a bit.. . attention hungry.

Nemeliom · April 2021

I don't use this addon because I don't mind for looking for resources. But what's the big deal? If you don't like it, don't use it. If you can use it, then you are not in a disadvantage. It's a matter of choice. It's FAIR if everyone can have it, and everyone can.

This is the reason for all addons, to make life easier. If you enjoy roleplaying and being tough, good for you. But don't come to the forums to impose your lifestyle to everyone else.

Live and let live.

The_Old_Goat · April 2021

Wait til this guy discovers what the actual Mappins addon can do...implosion incoming!

Kwoung · April 2021

The_Old_Goat wrote: »

Wait til this guy discovers what the actual Mappins addon can do...implosion incoming!

No, he already stated that MapPins wasn't working well enough for him to be able to run over and find the chests... But apparently Harvest Map made it too easy.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7218757#Comment_7218757

/Boggle

Somehow MapPins steering him to places that award XP and skillpoints wasn't an issue or exploit either, so I am seriously confused here.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

Nirrudn wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

I'd love to hear from ZOS about this, truth be told.

I mean, they've had 7 years to say or do something about it. My money's on it isn't changing.

haha, yes that is true! But maybe I'm the very first person in 7 years to bring it up

That should speak volumes on how much of a "problem" this addon actually is then.

Araneae6537 · April 2021

I don’t use any of the glowing node / treasure cheat passives, and while I do use map pins for survey locations, I do not for possible spawn points. I like to find the harvest nodes myself, the joy of finding something rather disappointment at it’s being missing (as must often be the case with these node markers), and pleased with being quite adept at spotting these things when little more than a few pixels in the distance. I suppose that people who use the skill point passives, add-ons, or both have some advantage over me, but I do not feel it and find plenty and in any case it is my choice in how I want to play and other people should not have these options taken away just because I don’t like them.

colossalvoids · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

There is a difference between possible node locations and actual node spawns, no problem here at all.

Well, my friend (and I mean this respectfully to you) .....I'll demonstrate a problem to you.
How would you feel if ZOS decided to completely randomize all nodes, so that nodes were not preconfigured but randomly appeared on the map?

Based on your comment, I would expect you would have no problem with total randomization of nodes, yes? I can assure you that Harvest Map users would deplore ZOS randomizing nodes.

With Harvest Map, you don't need to spend skill points on having treasure chests glow, correct? Yes, completely correct. This is a direct example of an "Add-on" having the power of in-game skills, and this shouldn't be.

They are kind of random. We know possible spawn locations but never know where it actually spawns at the moment. They might do it "more random" but there still will be predetermined locations which can be tracked.

And yes I would be okay personally, I still have the passives and use them 100% of times to actually see if there is a spawn, would even say that 99% of times I have no harvest map enabled now with chest passive. As it actually shows me one from behind a rock with 100% chance. Add-on just makes it easier for ones who farm 24/7 to earn their income.

You can't really do anything with it. They can surely disable some add-on API but players can make maps again, or an overlay programs etc. so it's a battle with easier implementation of QOL at this point.

marshill88 · April 2021

allhailskippy wrote: »

So just use the add-on and quit complaining about other people using it.

Kwoung wrote: »

The_Old_Goat wrote: »

Wait til this guy discovers what the actual Mappins addon can do...implosion incoming!

No, he already stated that MapPins wasn't working well enough for him to be able to run over and find the chests... But apparently Harvest Map made it too easy.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7218757#Comment_7218757

/Boggle

Somehow MapPins steering him to places that award XP and skillpoints wasn't an issue or exploit either, so I am seriously confused here.

Map Pins was not that accurate, when it placed a pin on my map, I still needed my keen eye to spot the chest. I would go to a map pin, and still look around. Map Pins felt like some guy had placed pins on the map, it's lack of accuracy never made Keen Eye useless, in fact, the two were a nice complement. Map Pins, you see, felt like a genuine add-on. It did not replace my skill points, it just added a nice feature to the game. I didn't see any pins in Western Skyrim so I asked about it. You (and others in game) recommended Harvest Map, so I gave it a try.

I did not expect Harvest Map to render my keen eye skill useless.

It did. With Map Pins, my keen eye was still very much in play. With Harvest Map, my keen eye was obsoleted.

HarvestMap intruded on my skill tree, so indeed, this add-on is exploitive to me.

Now, harvest Map has many millions of downloads, this means it is a hugely popular addon. I knew when posting this post that I would be voraciously countered, of course I knew. You love harvestmap..millions do. How could I expect any kind of applause when coming into the forums calling something you all love an exploit? I expected to not have many fans in this thread, but that is ok. I don't take it personal, I actually think you guys are an awesome community and I know those here defending harvestmap are doing so out of integrity and we're all good people here.

But I just can't get past that this add-on is an exploit, it just is (to me). Now, ZOS has allowed it so that brings to bear the fact that players put skill points into skills that are trounced by an add-on, and I think ZOS should address it.

By addressing this issue, ZOS could beef up the keen eye skills (preferred) or possibly zap HarvestMap (I wouldn't mind).

I don't like to complain without offering a solution, so here is a solution that has the best of both worlds.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION:
A) Keen Eye skills will sometimes reveal rich nodes that cannot be found by anyone else, much like a survey works. The Rich Node will glow a different color indicating it is a single node that is rich. This occurrence is possible, but infrequent.
B.) For treasure chest Keen Eye, you have a small chance to sometimes reveal a Master Chest not available to anyone else.
C) Everyone gets to keep HarvestMap as is. Because Keen Eye has been beefed up, it no longer is supplanted nor competitive against HarvestMap.

Main Point: Having an add-on either directly compete with, or even surpass an in-game skill is intrusive and should not be permitted.

kargen27 · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

There is a difference between possible node locations and actual node spawns, no problem here at all.

Well, my friend (and I mean this respectfully to you) .....I'll demonstrate a problem to you.
How would you feel if ZOS decided to completely randomize all nodes, so that nodes were not preconfigured but randomly appeared on the map?

Based on your comment, I would expect you would have no problem with total randomization of nodes, yes? I can assure you that Harvest Map users would deplore ZOS randomizing nodes.

With Harvest Map, you don't need to spend skill points on having treasure chests glow, correct? Yes, completely correct. This is a direct example of an "Add-on" having the power of in-game skills, and this shouldn't be.

Players have been asking for random nodes for a long time to combat bots.

Harvest map sometimes wastes a players time because they see what could be there not what is actually there. THey go out of their way to get to the yellow glow to find nothing has spawned. Harvest map can help the casual farmer. Players that farm materials and chests often memorize their routes just out of repetitiveness.
I don't see map pins or harvest map really any different than writ crafter and other add-ons. They make what could sometimes be tedious a little less so. I like others would like to see many of these add-ons be made an official part of the base game.

Solid_Metal · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

I know you all love your harvest map, but sorry, this rises to the level of an exploit. My in-game skill points are being neutralized, no matter how you twist it.

This is an exploit to me, the only reason I'm posting it here in the forums (and not reporting it) is because ZOS says it is legal and I would like ZOS to reconsider this add-on as either A.) an exploit, or B.) re-design the in-game skills to give a benefit to the player that is better than the add-on.

you missing the point, just like anyone here said, ITS JUST A POSSIBILTY, screenshot that you took just so happen chest spawn at the pin, its not always

the pin just show you "hey chest might spawn here", is it always ? , NO, and the passive actually compliment it, why?, because you can either see the glow from far away and can move quickly to other location, save you time

trackdemon5512 · April 2021

Console players know. PC should drop the add-ons. It took well over a year for PS4 NA to get a Godslayer win. Meanwhile PC got it lickety split. Load times aren’t the reason, it’s optimized DPS, timers, notifications, etc that add up to a significantly different experience for those using than those with just the base game and no add-one.

Kwoung · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

allhailskippy wrote: »

So just use the add-on and quit complaining about other people using it.

Kwoung wrote: »

The_Old_Goat wrote: »

Wait til this guy discovers what the actual Mappins addon can do...implosion incoming!

No, he already stated that MapPins wasn't working well enough for him to be able to run over and find the chests... But apparently Harvest Map made it too easy.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7218757#Comment_7218757

/Boggle

Somehow MapPins steering him to places that award XP and skillpoints wasn't an issue or exploit either, so I am seriously confused here.

Map Pins was not that accurate, when it placed a pin on my map, I still needed my keen eye to spot the chest. Map Pins, you see, felt like a genuine add-on. It did not replace my skill points, it just added a nice feature to the game. I didn't see any pins in Western Skyrim so I asked about it. You (and others in game) recommended Harvest Map, so I gave it a try.

I did not expect Harvest Map to render my keen eye skill useless.

It did. With Map Pins, my keen eye was still very much in play. With Harvest Map, my keen eye was obsoleted.

HarvestMap intruded on my skill tree, so indeed, this add-on is exploitive to me.

Now, harvest Map has many millions of downloads, this means it is a hugely popular addon. I knew when posting this post that I would be voraciously countered, of course I knew. You love harvestmap..millions do. How could I expect any kind of applause when coming into the forums calling something you all love an exploit? I expected to not have many fans in this thread, but that is ok. I don't take it personal, I actually think you guys are an awesome community and I know those here defending harvestmap are doing so out of integrity and we're all good people here.

But I just can't get past that this add-on is an exploit, it just is (to me). Now, ZOS has allowed it so that brings to bear the fact that players put skill points into skills that are trounced by an add-on, and I think ZOS should address it.

By addressing this issue, ZOS could beef up the keen eye skills (preferred) or possibly zap HarvestMap (I wouldn't mind).

I don't like to complain without offering a solution, so here is a solution that has the best of both worlds.

POSSIBLE SOLUTION:
A) Keen Eye skills will sometimes reveal rich nodes that cannot be found by anyone else, much like a survey works. The Rich Node will glow a different color indicating it is a single node that is rich. This occurrence is possible, but infrequent.
B.) For treasure chest Keen Eye, you have a small chance to sometimes reveal a Master Chest not available to anyone else.
C) Everyone gets to keep HarvestMap as is. Because Keen Eye has been beefed up, it no longer is supplanted nor competitive against HarvestMap.

Main Point: Having an add-on either directly compete with, or even surpass an in-game skill is intrusive and should not be permitted.

You really need to wrap your head around Harvest Map not rendering anything useless. As I pointed out a few posts ago, there are many chests in Tamriel that cannot be spotted in any way other than having leveled Scrying. Also, the distance at which you see the chest itself without the scrying passive is completely different, I can spot them miles away, up on ledges, behind objects with the passive.... and in many cases need to be literally standing on top of the chest to see it without that passive.

HarvestMap replaces nothing, it is a QOL improvement that helps in some situations, but far from all of them. I used to farm Treasure Chests a lot and used HarvestMap to learn my routes. Once I earned the scrying passive, I cut a huge amount of time off my route, letting me farm chests with considerable more ease. I can think of so many places where I would have to run around terrain, climb hills, etc... to see if a chest was there, where now I can just take a glance while riding past the spot... all because of the skill points I spent and HarvestMap did not replace.

You have made a very broad judgement using very little information, and you are mistaken. Once you have tried farming chests across the entire game at various times of day and weather conditions and not just tried something in for a couple minutes, you would probably better understand. I also take issue at you having a "breaking point" at which some addon becomes too functional. The fact that you were using an addon at all (MapPins) to make your game easier, earn you skillpoints considerably faster than you would have ever been able to without, is completely contradictory to your position on HarvestMap.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of QOL addons that improve upon what ESO delivers as base functionality, where does the line get drawn? I can answer that, the line is drawn where ZOS decided they would rather have addon authors add the improvements, instead of programming it into the game. They are very specific about what can and can not be accessed via their API or map pings, so this functionality is not something they didn't know about and accidentally put in the game. As a matter of fact, you may not be aware, but ZOS staff can and does work with addon authors on occasion to help them perfect their addons. In the very few cases that an addon managed to do something ZOS didn't want happening, they changed the API, like what happened to Miat's addon.

starlizard70ub17_ESO · April 2021

marshill88 wrote: »

Nirrudn wrote: »

marshill88 wrote: »

I'd love to hear from ZOS about this, truth be told.

I mean, they've had 7 years to say or do something about it. My money's on it isn't changing.

haha, yes that is true! But maybe I'm the very first person in 7 years to bring it up

Sorry but you’re about 6 years too late on that. 🤪

ghost_bg_ESO · April 2021

have been farming before addons...

may be all eso maps has to be deleted from internet because people can see locations without investing skill points...

with harvest map i can see it all on one screen instead to have map open on second...

*took me 2 min to find for android... and there are couple more, some will probably work even better

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.moonsugar.esohelper

as much as i know it is used by consoles...

starlizard70ub17_ESO · April 2021

ArchMikem wrote: »

TwinLamps wrote: »

Why cant we have nice things
Why are people so much against nice things
Why must every aspect of game be struggle for some people

Do you want the game to be nice, or do you want your hand held?

ESO was designed from the beginning to be a nice hand holding causal mmo.

hexnotic · April 2021

i never did put points into keen eye on most of my toons for this very reason. i have the chest spawns memorized for most of the dungeons, and in some zones as well. so i already know where to check after looting the same chest so many times.

Sylvermynx · April 2021

hexnotic wrote: »

i never did put points into keen eye on most of my toons for this very reason. i have the chest spawns memorized for most of the dungeons, and in some zones as well. so i already know where to check after looting the same chest so many times.

This. I don't have the craft passives that light up nodes either.

Morgha_Kul · April 2021

I don't use ANY of those skills or mods. Seems to me, the fun of the game is going out into the world and exploring, finding the things out there by actually LOOKING for them.

I despise games that give you a quest to "Find X," and then they just put it on the map. What's the POINT?!? Not every challenge needs to be combat, make us use our EYES and BRAINS, too.

Sarannah · April 2021

I agree with the OP, and feel the same goes for all other crafting skills! Which apparently highlight the resourcenodes in an inferior way to the add-on. Judging by the screenshots in this thread.

This add-on really seems like a cheat to me. If you miss the node/chest, you miss it... but having an add-on highlight every possible location is cheating!

ZOS should put a lot more restrictions on their allowed add-ons. Both privacy-wise, and gameplay advantage-wise.