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Proc Set Scaling Concern
GrimTheReaper45
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With damaging proc sets now scaling of weapon/spell damage, Im a bit concerned that mag dps wont benefit from them as much as stam dps. Mag dps builds tend to run lower on spell damage (4-5k) and typically have higher max mag. While stam dps builds tend to run higher weapon damage (5-6k) and run lower max stam.
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SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They won't. I just checked on live- my Bosmer stamplar hit 5500+ weapon damage after I hit a weapon power potion.
Breton magplar was at 3250.
They've got the same passives for weapon/spell damage. I think that the stamplar has a set that adds 129 more weapon damage than the Breton's sets, but... yeah.
Relequen is going to be buffed to high heaven. We're going to have to scrap monster sets because the proc will be so weak.
BS.
I should note that this was out of any sort of combat- just sitting in Vvardenfell.Edited by SidraWillowsky on April 19, 2021 11:03PM1 -
propertyOfUndefined✭✭✭✭✭I honestly don’t understand why they don’t just scale to stamina and magicka like the healing proc sets will. Doing this would make players think twice about investing level-up attribute points, set bonuses and armor glyphs into health vs their primary.
Perhaps it’s to prevent damage and healing proc sets from being used together without sacrificing effectiveness of either?2 -
Elo106✭✭✭✭✭Stacking Weapon damage has always been much easier than stacking spell damage. I wish Zos would have addressed this issue as a dev comment.
Especially since Mag needs that damage more than Stam does.12 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea, it's a valid concern. I do think Magicka builds are going to be more hampered by this than stam, who already feel over tuned in PvP with more defense, more movement and stam for it, damage bonus vs light armor, etc.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC3 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agreed, it may have made sense to scale both healing and damage off of either max stat OR wd/sd whichever scales it better. Saying that, there aren’t many procs that mag use outside a couple monster sets and even then it’s circumstantial. Mag and stam damage will still scale any procs higher than their current values in any endgame scenarios, and these changes should lead to increased DPS across the board.
And besides, until people prefer a mix of mag and stam trial set-ups, or stam at least gets an increase in play therein, we will continue to see buffs in favour of stam toons, just as mentioned in the dev comment where they gave justification in buffing caltrops and nerfing mystic orb...PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.1 -
Nebula_DooM✭✭✭They should just make it scale with weapon/spell damage and max stam/mag. They are pretty much being treated as abilities now so I don't see why not4 -
Elo106✭✭✭✭✭Nebula_DooM wrote: »They should just make it scale with weapon/spell damage and max stam/mag. They are pretty much being treated as abilities now so I don't see why not
This would be a good solution2 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Magicka gets a bonus to Spell Penetration that applies for the magical damage proc sets, but I'm not sure how the numbers compare. That also means that if they CAN get to the Spell Damage scaling cap, they can theoretically do more damage with a proc than stamina builds.PC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner2 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yea, it's a valid concern. I do think Magicka builds are going to be more hampered by this than stam, who already feel over tuned in PvP with more defense, more movement and stam for it, damage bonus vs light armor, etc.
You must have 5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage to reach the original value of many sets.
Seems to be the issue is that they flat balanced Mag/Stam dmg scaling as the same thing. Should be different values for Spell/weapon scaling. Then choose which of those two are the highest to base on.4 -
GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »Magicka gets a bonus to Spell Penetration that applies for the magical damage proc sets, but I'm not sure how the numbers compare. That also means that if they CAN get to the Spell Damage scaling cap, they can theoretically do more damage with a proc than stamina builds.
Problem with that is their is a max to how much spell pen can be useful. Especially in pve once your at pen cap you dont benefit from it anymore. So a mag dps with 10k pen and a 4k spell damage may very will be getting the same out of that pen as a stam dps with 8k pen and 5k weapon damage.
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GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭Yea, it's a valid concern. I do think Magicka builds are going to be more hampered by this than stam, who already feel over tuned in PvP with more defense, more movement and stam for it, damage bonus vs light armor, etc.
You must have 5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage to reach the original value of many sets.
Seems to be the issue is that they flat balanced Mag/Stam dmg scaling as the same thing. Should be different values for Spell/weapon scaling. Then choose which of those two are the highest to base on.
I like this solution0 -
Faded✭✭✭✭✭GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »With damaging proc sets now scaling of weapon/spell damage, Im a bit concerned that mag dps wont benefit from them as much as stam dps. Mag dps builds tend to run lower on spell damage (4-5k) and typically have higher max mag. While stam dps builds tend to run higher weapon damage (5-6k) and run lower max stam.
Presumably this is intended to narrow the gap between stamina specs and magicka specs in endgame PVE.0 -
Sangwyne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamina was already the meta, now it will be even more prevalent.- Stamina builds already have more damage than Magicka builds due to scaling weapon damage harder.
- Stamina builds will also deal more damage with procs due to them scaling off weapon/spell damage now.
- Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.
- Stamina is used for skills, blocking, rolling, sprinting and breaking free, Magicka can only be used for skills.
- Medium armor grants more mobility and armor than Light, along with more damage and defensive passives.
- Medium armor's skill is better; Magicka builds can't grab Major Evasion but Stamina builds can still get shields.
- Medium armor has no downsides, Light and Heavy armor have several.
- Light armor takes increased damage from Stamina builds despite already having the least armor (Why?)
Edited by Sangwyne on April 19, 2021 11:43PM14 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »With damaging proc sets now scaling of weapon/spell damage, Im a bit concerned that mag dps wont benefit from them as much as stam dps. Mag dps builds tend to run lower on spell damage (4-5k) and typically have higher max mag. While stam dps builds tend to run higher weapon damage (5-6k) and run lower max stam.
Presumably this is intended to narrow the gap between stamina specs and magicka specs in endgame PVE.
Unsure honestly. Its not like stam proc sets <Rele> were inherently bad, and needed a buff vs Mag proc sets <Which other than monster sets don't have high end play in those groups. The issue of stam V Mag is a whole different thing all together as mag is just easier to player and build around.
Nefas I think brought it up while reading the patch notes as well when they talked about Orb nerf to make stam more "viable" isn't a solution.0 -
fathym1✭✭The easiest way to balance out stam vs mag would be to let proc sets crit again, based on the players highest crit rating. That way mag builds can take advantage of the light armor crit passive. With the addition of scaling , there is no real reason to prevent procs from critting anymore anyways since stacking pure crit will make the base proc damage super low. Plus it will make builds more interesting as you will have to balance crit and sd/wd to get the most out of the proc. If any set becomes too strong with critt, they can just decrease wd/sd scaling on it.
In my dream scenario, Id also like to see procs scale off element specific wd/sd sets (eg: Netch's Touch w/ Auroran's Thunder). I would add so many new and interesting set combinations that way. I'm doubtful that they would make a change like this though.
Edited by fathym1 on April 19, 2021 11:57PM1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stacking Weapon damage has always been much easier than stacking spell damage. I wish Zos would have addressed this issue as a dev comment.
Especially since Mag needs that damage more than Stam does.
This is a clear problem but there's also no easy solution.
I really want to see armor types hybridized (e.g. Medium also provides +Spell Damage scaling and Light provides Physical Penetration) but, apart from crafted sets, it would require a nearly complete re-itemization of all existing sets.
We may be on the way toward that goal as the developers had previously commented that they wanted to unify most stats (such as Penetration, Critical Chance), but we've seen precious few moves in that direction outside of recent crafted sets.5 -
Faded✭✭✭✭✭GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »With damaging proc sets now scaling of weapon/spell damage, Im a bit concerned that mag dps wont benefit from them as much as stam dps. Mag dps builds tend to run lower on spell damage (4-5k) and typically have higher max mag. While stam dps builds tend to run higher weapon damage (5-6k) and run lower max stam.
Presumably this is intended to narrow the gap between stamina specs and magicka specs in endgame PVE.
Unsure honestly. Its not like stam proc sets <Rele> were inherently bad, and needed a buff vs Mag proc sets <Which other than monster sets don't have high end play in those groups. The issue of stam V Mag is a whole different thing all together as mag is just easier to player and build around.
Nefas I think brought it up while reading the patch notes as well when they talked about Orb nerf to make stam more "viable" isn't a solution.
No, more of a bandaid, but sometimes that's all you get.
Going to be an interesting patch, although there are a few weeks to go and they might half-revert what they're planning now so it's not much of a change at all for PVE DDs.0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Stacking Weapon damage has always been much easier than stacking spell damage. I wish Zos would have addressed this issue as a dev comment.
Especially since Mag needs that damage more than Stam does.
This is a clear problem but there's also no easy solution.
I really want to see armor types hybridized (e.g. Medium also provides +Spell Damage scaling and Light provides Physical Penetration) but, apart from crafted sets, it would require a nearly complete re-itemization of all existing sets.
We may be on the way toward that goal as the developers had previously commented that they wanted to unify most stats (such as Penetration, Critical Chance), but we've seen precious few moves in that direction outside of recent crafted sets.
I agree 99%. I would make Light Armor offer offensive penetration and crit chance. Medium would offer weapon and spell damage increases and more resistances.5 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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If you're talking PvP, no they won't. Mag gets pen from light armor. Stam gets the same or more total pen from using a maul and running Pierce Armor. This will be viable on some mag builds too, but not the average one. While not all stam builds will run that either, it is eminently more viable on stam and mauls alone, which AFAIK are meta, almost get you to parity with light armor. A mag build that runs both a maul and Pierce Armor would have no way to restore stam from heavy attacks. As far as I can see "mag has more pen than stam" is actually a bogus argument.tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »Magicka gets a bonus to Spell Penetration that applies for the magical damage proc sets, but I'm not sure how the numbers compare. That also means that if they CAN get to the Spell Damage scaling cap, they can theoretically do more damage with a proc than stamina builds.
Also: 5.5K is not a cap. It's the break even point where the proc matches it's current value on live. It can go higher, if you have more spell / weapon damage.Edited by fred4 on April 20, 2021 1:59AM1 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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Yep. That last point especially sums up the crazy of this game. It arises purely from a role-playing background.Stamina was already the meta, now it will be even more prevalent.- Stamina builds already have more damage than Magicka builds due to scaling weapon damage harder.
- Stamina builds will also deal more damage with procs due to them scaling off weapon/spell damage now.
- Stamina skills are 15% cheaper than their Magicka equivalents.
- Stamina is used for skills, blocking, rolling, sprinting and breaking free, Magicka can only be used for skills.
- Medium armor grants more mobility and armor than Light, along with more damage and defensive passives.
- Medium armor's skill is better; Magicka builds can't grab Major Evasion but Stamina builds can still get shields.
- Medium armor has no downsides, Light and Heavy armor have several.
- Light armor takes increased damage from Stamina builds despite already having the least armor (Why?)
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GrimTheReaper45✭✭✭✭✭
If you're talking PvP, no they won't. Mag gets pen from light armor. Stam gets the same or more total pen from using a maul and running Pierce Armor. This will be viable on some mag builds too, but not the average one. While not all stam builds will run that either, it is eminently more viable on stam and mauls alone, which AFAIK are meta, almost get you to parity with light armor. A mag build that runs both a maul and Pierce Armor would have no way to restore stam from heavy attacks. As far as I can see "mag has more pen than stam" is actually a bogus argument.tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »Magicka gets a bonus to Spell Penetration that applies for the magical damage proc sets, but I'm not sure how the numbers compare. That also means that if they CAN get to the Spell Damage scaling cap, they can theoretically do more damage with a proc than stamina builds.
Also: 5.5K is not a cap. It's the break even point where the proc matches it's current value on live. It can go higher, if you have more spell / weapon damage.
Also a good point. Stam will get higher than live bonuses while mag gets less than live.2 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭I feel they need to address the accessibility for stacking spell damage since stacking weapon damage is much easier to provide a level field of accessibility for sets that proc on maximum wd/sd.2
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YoWombat✭✭✭Do shield sets even scale? They weren't listed in the patch notes. They are already seldomly used, and if they become the only proc type that doesn't scale, I can't imagine that will help their cause.1
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SHOW✭✭✭GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »Yea, it's a valid concern. I do think Magicka builds are going to be more hampered by this than stam, who already feel over tuned in PvP with more defense, more movement and stam for it, damage bonus vs light armor, etc.
You must have 5,478 Weapon or Spell Damage to reach the original value of many sets.
Seems to be the issue is that they flat balanced Mag/Stam dmg scaling as the same thing. Should be different values for Spell/weapon scaling. Then choose which of those two are the highest to base on.
I like this solution
@GrimTheReaper45
Great info. So around 5.5K gets u around the original value, do u know what the rest of the scaling is?
I ask because last patch they gave everyone free damage, so just want to be sure they don't blow it with "good idea but bad execution"
Example:
if 1K weapon damage still gets u 90% proc damage value, then this is all for nothing.
Any chance u can fill in the table? Even just the boundaries would help (assuming linear scaling).
Dmg. %
10K =
9K =
8K =
7K =
6K =
5K = 100%
4K =
3K =
2K =
1K =0 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmmm. You can get merciless charge to hit 20kEdited by Canned_Apples on April 20, 2021 5:38PM1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Short view on scaling of Velidreth
2.287 wpn dmg - 4.731 dmg tooltip
2.656 wpn dmg - 5.464
3.572 wpn dmg - 7.245
3.943 wpn dmg - 7.981
4.167 wpn dmg - 8.452
4.579 wpn dmg - 9.268
4.588 wpn dmg - 9.247 <---- WTF
4.774 wpn dmg - 9.612
4.914 wpn dmg - 9.922
4.983 wpn dmg - 10.061
5.328 wpn dmg - 10.738
5.544 wpn dmg - 11.162
6.408 wpn dmg - 12.858
note: I haven't added champion active slots for direct damage or anything. this is just to illustrate the scaling
with full deadyl aim cp (10%) at 6.968 weapon dmg it sits at 15.352 tooltip.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on April 20, 2021 5:53PM2 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭looks like some sets could be worth sloting even in pve now, i havent done any test nor calculation but still, with all the buffs available from supports alongside the previous "nerf" to crit chances, some brainstorming will have to be done for parses and for regular fights when you cant always make 100% benefit of the backstabber star idk...0
