Thoughts on "raising floors, lowering ceilings"

ajkb78 · April 2021

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf. But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.

So far ZoS's attempts to address this have mostly failed. The usual approach is through nerfs to reduce top-end damage, though the recent FOA changes are a bit more interesting: most of the base stats go up, but the power of CP is somewhat reduced. This hasn't worked either. ZoS are now hinting at further nerfs to the CP system in future updates. That won't work either.

It won't work because the nerfs focus too much on the individual, not the group. This nerfs bad players pretty much as hard as good players, it lowers both the floor and the ceiling. That's what has happened with the CP nerfs, and although increasing the base stats was a good idea it was counteracted by the nerfs to crit - I don't think anyone is getting higher dps on the skeleton dummies this patch than last patch, which is what you would expect to see given these represent individual rather than group performance. The right solution as far as altering power goes is to further increase the individual's ability to do damage, but to reduce the impact of group buffs and debuffs.

However more is needed. There is almost zero in-game tuition on how to be effective at dealing damage beyond the tutorial that simply teaches you how to use light and heavy attacks, block and bash. There's nothing about weaving light attacks with a skill, nothing about buffing or layering damage over time skills to create a rotation, because at the time you do the tutorial you don't have any skills, or maybe just 1. It's a terribly ineffectual system for a game with reasonably complex combat.

There are fighters guilds and mages guilds scattered all over Tamriel. Most of these (fighers guilds anyway) are full of practice dummies and archery targets, but you can't use them, and none of the guild personnel offer any advice on fighting. All the infrastructure is there to make a decent set of follow-up repeatable tutorial quests to provide much more in-depth tuition about effective dpsing, i.e. layering skills and weaving light attacks. The rhythm and pace of combat is something a lot of players seem to struggle with. And if some of those target dummies were made into actual dummies, even if with slightly different stats from skeletons or atronachs, then there would be at least some option for players who don't have their own or choose not to join a guild to be able to use one in a guildhall.

There are armourers and weaponsmiths all over the place, too. It would be really good if there was an option to get advice from them on set items you carry. So you might ask one for advice on say a purple Julianos inferno staff and he might tell you it looks a pretty good item for a mage, but that it would do better if it could be improved with resins. Given a cuirass of leeching plate he might suggest that the set looks to offer a lot of protection for a tanky sort, but doesn't help your comrades at all. He might suggest certain sets being good to use against other players and so on.

And finally it would really help if console players could get more useful feedback from the dummies. I play on PS4 EU but I recently bought the basic PC version just for a look at the FOA changes on PTS ahead of launch, and parsing on the dummy on PTS with access to CMX and light attack helper was a revelation. That, despite all the lag and glitchiness of PTS, did more for understanding where I was causing myself problems in my dpsing than years of well meaning advice from fellow players on PS4, because of the detail available. I know there's a Sony issue with introducing add-ons on console and I wouldn't really want add-ons in the way PC has, but it would be very good indeed if the core game could be improved so that we get similar information to that available from CMX in a summary report from the dummies. It's really disappointing that in order to have access to basic self-improvement tools that ought to be a core feature of the game I have to buy a second copy on a different platform than the one I chose to play on, install the PTS so I can recreate my characters from PS4, and add on some third party plugins. The other aspect of practicing is expense. Buying stacks of spell draught isn't a problem for most endgame players because they already have ways of making gold, but it is a big deterrent to practising properly for new players with little gold. I've suggested it before but I think there should be a way of making training versions of potions and poisons that never get consumed but only work inside player housing (or areas around overland target dummies if these were ever to be introduced) and when not in combat with another player. That way you could do all the parsing you wanted without burning through gold, but you would still have to use consumable potions in actual combat with enemies. Perhaps you could add an animus stone to any potion / poison recipe at the alchemy station to make the training variant - that would chime with use of animus stones in target dummies and would improve the market for them to the benefit of master crafters doing their master writs, who would have another source of income making and selling training potions (or just animus stones).

I suspect the above would have a much bigger real impact on raising the floor than constant tweaking of gear stats, but of course it would take a bit more work on ZoS's part.

_Zathras_ · April 2021

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

Blue_Radium · April 2021

The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.

Grandchamp1989 · April 2021

The problem at the very buttom isn't a lack of opportunity. Reaching 20k on the 3 million isn't exactly an impossible task, and would take most players from buttom tier to mediocre.

The problem, the way I see it, is two fold:

1. Zos complete and utter lack of teaching players how to play the game.. And no the "two interrupts, two heavy attacks" in the tutorial dosn't count. Overland and normal dungeons lack progression and teachable moments, gameplay wise. Instead of having a quest boss be 30k HP, and dead the moment your pet looks at it, why not use these quest encounters to teach the players? Instead of insisting that Overland content should be a bunch of useless trashfights every single fight. USE this great content and develop it, please. Ease players into mechanics in an environment where they're allowed to take their time, without having 3 other people in a group rushing them. Teach players to do an interrupt, and make them learn it isn't scary but can be a grea experience even! Progression Zos! It's not always a bad thing.

2. Players... 10k damage is perfectly fine. 10k dmg is even awesome in most normal dungeons and overland. But when you que for Veteran Stone Garden it's not cool anymore. Some players are completely oblivous to the own limits....
This one is partly on Zos aswell since they over-hype overland player's ego. When you've saved Tamriel 4 times already, and the baddest monsters melt before your bear pet (and Fungal Grotto is a piece of cake in 4dd runs) why wouldn't you think you're ready for vet Stone Garden?

The problem, as i see it, isn't as much boosting dmg at the buttom, as much as it's lack of education.

Blue_Radium · April 2021

As long as players who don't learn the nuances of the game stay away from veteran content, I think it's not a big deal. It can be hard to remember once you "git gud," but normal difficulty content, with all players who have absolutely no idea how the game works, is very fun.

It's only when players who are good to go in normal try and run veteran content, think they should have access to rewards from veteran content, etc, without putting in the effort to be ready for it, that there's a problem. Unless that happens, and a lack of learning starts dramatically harming the ability of some to enjoy themselves, whatever causes people to have fun is all that matters.

ajkb78 · April 2021

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

It's not though, as far as ZoS have said they want to change things. Raising floors and lowering ceilings is their stated goal, and they still seem to be pursuing it so clearly from their point of view the game is not "working as intended".

And I'm not hating on bad players either. To be clear, I quite like running random dungeons. I do it a lot, and I don't mind players with low dps in random groups - I remember very well my first character and how bad I was for a good while. But those low level players with bad dps, like me 3 years ago, do generally want to improve. Maybe not to the extent of farming meta gear in the perfect trait and grinding transmutes for weeks on end, but definitely if ZoS offered cheap and easy tools to engage more effectively with doing damage then I'd wager near as dammit everyone would take it even if they have no desire to progress to vet content. I do see a lot of players who just don't have the knowledge to improve. And that's because you can't get the knowledge from the game itself, and you have to know where to look to find it online. Like I said, I might have reasonable dps myself now but I still found a huge benefit in the additional feedback I got from CMX on my PTS account and that just isn't available to console players at all. And even CMX isn't particularly useful unless you know what it means, which is why I suggested fighting tutorials.

And even if there are some few gamers who for whatever reason actively don't want to improve at all, what I've suggested wouldn't make things any worse for them. Besides a bit of developer effort there isn't actually a downside to any of what I suggested above.

ajkb78 · April 2021

Blue_Radium wrote: »

The core of the game is too skill-based to meaningfully raise the floor a lot. Performing like a near-perfect 60 BPM metronome is essentially a prerequisite to break into middle-ish tier output. That truth isn't even known by 75% of players, and not acted on by the majority that do. ZOS needs to address the power gap at that fundamental level for meaningful change to occur.

But as you've just said, it's a knowledge gap first and foremost. New players and casual players don't know you have to achieve that rhythm (actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks) and they don't know that you do better rotating skills in an order rather than spamming light attacks or button mashing. I do agree the timing requirements are pretty tight, optimally you have a 0.2s period between the LA cooldown and the skill cooldown to get your LA in so you can do your next skill bang on time. Maybe changing the LA cooldown to be 0.7s so you have 0.3s to fit in your LA might just ease that a bit but still I think it's more a knowledge thing for most players. I'm middle aged and certainly don't have the lightning twitch reflexes of a young FPS gamer but with knowledge and practice a decent and consistent rotation is fairly achievable for me.

VaranisArano · April 2021

_Zathras_ wrote: »

I was with you at the beginning..

ajkb78 wrote: »

So for almost as long as I've been playing the game ZoS has stated their desire to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". That is, to make it easier for basic players to perform adequately at their roles and to make elite players engage with mechanics.

Until I saw that it was an Us

ajkb78 wrote: »

I don't really see a problem at the top end. I'm in several endgame guilds playing with very strong players: the amount of groups that are able to completely skip mechanics, at least in trials, is vanishingly small. There's a group I'm aware of that's getting close to a 0 portal nuke in VCR HM, but it's vanishingly rare and it doesn't matter. These players work insanely hard for such achievements, let them have their fun, it doesn't affect anyone else. Not to mention there are achievements in the game that require current levels of damage - the groups getting Godslayer don't have minutes in hand that could soak up a further 10% damage nerf.

vs Them. The good players, vs everyone else that you consider to be bad.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But there definitely is a problem at the bottom end: there are still vast numbers of players who consider themselves damage dealers (or at least aren't tagging themselves as healers or tanks) but completely fail to deliver the role and deal meaningful damage. If you spend any time tanking random normal dungeons through group finder you'll see them all the time. Partly it's bad gear, partly it's innate lack of skill, partly it's lack of knowledge about how to do damage.
.

(and I snipped out your solution because while constructive, it isn't relevant to my reply)

See, I think you are missing a key point to your perspective. You are comparing top "elite" (cough) guilds and their abilities, to the pleebs you have to deal with in Normal dungeons, and how they don't measure up. And then you graciously supply a lengthy solution to bring those scrubs up to speed.

They are Normal dungeons. A large percentage of people that like to run those on a regular basis do so for a reason: to avoid the pain and bs of "end game" guilds, groups, and people that set a standard that only 5% of the playerbase will chase, and attain.

My solution to you? If you want to run Normal dungeons, then stick with your group of amazingly skilled friends who will never disappoint you with their dps. Because, it seems everyone else lacks the skill, the gear, and the knowledge to meet your expectations.

For people doing the occasional Normal dungeons that prefer to stick with that mode of gaming, they are doing just fine. It isn't Hardmode, or Vet Trials where you really need to sharpen your game. The Normal tier is designed for accessibility. And if your gear/skills/knowledge gets you through it? Then it is working as intended.

I don't disagree that players who're doing acceptable normal dungeon DPS are doing fine in normal dungeons. Somewhere between 7k to 15k DPS will get you through just about any normal dungeon, though it may take a while. If they are alright with that, good for them!

But what you miss in your counteranalysis is that those are the players ZOS is talking about when they say "raising the floor." You may not see It as a problem, but ZOS does, and balances, buffs, and nerfs accordingly.

Not every players wants to progress beyond normal dungeons and some never do. But as far as ZOS is concerned, they want players to be able to progress beyond normal dungeons. ZOS doesn't want players hitting walls blocking them from accessing vet dungeons, Vet DLC dungeons, trials and arenas. The two biggest "walls" are mechanics and DPS.

ZOS deals with mechanics periodically. Every year or so, they reevaluate group content and then we see a string of nerfs to year-old Vet DLC dungeons and trials mechanics aimed at fixing areas where the data shows that players got stuck.

As for DPS, ZOS attempts to deal with it via "raising the floor". It usually doesn't work, because any gameplay change is going to be used more efficiently by the people who already know the basics of effective DPS - light attack weaving and rotations - better than the people who don't weave and have inefficient use of their skills. And so what's supposed to raise the floor...doesn't.

If ZOS is serious about raising the floor, then they need to give more players the opportunity to learn the basics of good DPS: rotations and weaving. And it needs to be in-game, not "Oh, you gotta watch this YouTube video, and read this website, and then maybe your parse will be worth spending a guild's time practicing with you on." ESO Logs was a good start on PC, but console needs some equivalent tools.

Tommy_The_Gun · April 2021

Tbh. I think that ZOS should do an overhaul on all dungeons difficult level. A big part of the fact that game teaches very little is the fact that we have huge diffulty spikes. Overland teaches almost nothing when it comes to dungeons. Also, there is no indication of what diffulty level certain dungeon actually is.
- Sometimes 1st boss is more diffulty than last one (um, wierd ?).
- Some base game dungeons are still way easier than other base game dungeons (a leftover from the times in which Zones were levelled).
- DRASTIC diffulty spike when comparing base game dungeons to DLC ones.
- Also, drastic diffulty spike when comparing some DLC dungeons to... other DLCs dungeons.

Simple example: imagine doing FG I and I can do it flawlessly on vet and even solo it. So I buy a DLC dungeon without a clue or hint that it is much harder... and I get destroyed. So I buy another random DLC dungeon, hoping that maybe it was one-time accident, so maybe the next one will be easier... and I get destroyed again... as a result I do not buy any other dungeon DLC.

The basic problem is not a skill based problem or ltp. It is the problem that game sets expected diffulty to be very low. So players do not expect new dungeon to be harder. It also happens in overland. Just compare dolmens to harrowstorms. Huge diffulty spike. Same for world bosses. That one boss in southern Elsweyr that has mobs that cast flameballs at you ? Again, huge diffulty spike. And worst part is that this boss teaches you almost nothing. Many players up to this day do not know the mechanic, because of harsh punishment for a mistake in a fight which results in dying in split second...

remosito · April 2021

the way to limit the gap is to reduce how much dps increase a perfect rotation and weave give. As is it's a ridiculous boost.

Lowering that by a lot will bring down the ceiling. At which point everything can get boosted back up equally.

SidraWillowsky · April 2021

This game has a huge issue with teaching new players in that it just... doesn't.

People who come into the game not knowing much about MMOs and who haven't joined a guild yet or have no interest likely won't even know that they're not effective. This was me at first, and I had no way of knowing that I was doing next to no DPS at CP 200ish because as long as the other DD in a four-person dungeon was decent, stuff would die and I wouldn't know that I wasn't contributing anything. Maybe I'm just a derp (yes, I am), but the concept of layering DoTs and using a spammable was foreign to me- on my stamblade, I looked at the DPS number of the tooltip for something like Volley, then compared it to, say, Ambush, Ambush was higher.

Why use anything but Ambush if the Ambush tooltip is higher?

Why waste time casting anything else?

Why do I need a second bar if this one skill has the highest number?

WHY DO ANYTHING AT ALL EXCEPT SPAM AMBUSH?

...which is what I did. And truly, for a very long time I had no idea that it wasn't normal to be dying to mobs of 3+ in overland at my level. I didn't know what a target dummy was, I didn't know much about sets and CP (allllll of my CP in the old blue tree went into the passive that increased the damage that DW weaps do, which I don't think even affected Ambush) and again, I didn't know I was doing anything wrong.

I think that super high DPS these days adds a layer of complexity to stuff as well. Seasoned players can blast through normal dungeons and skip all mechanics except those that are forced. If someone like my old self gets grouped with people like that, they're going to get unknowingly carried through dungeons and likely not have a chance to even *see* the mechanics. If they get grouped up with players who can't out-DPS the mechanics for the same dungeon in the future, they're going to have a miserable time. That's likely when they'll get berated for being terrible, and that's not a constructive way to learn things either.

I really, really like your idea of more tutorials. The could use the dummies on the guild halls to make daily, repeatable quests with rewards in the form of minigames that teach things like effective LA weaving. I'm thinking of something like a side-scrolling screen with enemies on it that you have to hit with either a LA or a skill, and they pass across the screen in such a manner that kind of teaches the player the rhythm of LA weaving? Or things like layering DoTs and spammables. Like you talk about, anything that EXPLAINS to the player why doing X or using X armor is going to be beneficial to them.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2021

Couple thoughts

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Instead of having a quest boss be 30k HP, and dead the moment your pet looks at it, why not use these quest encounters to teach the players?

Not sure I've ever had that experience with a quest boss. And I know that I'm not as bad as some of the players out there. So that, right there, is a bit of a perspective issue - just because that's how knowledgeable/skilled players experience the quests, doesn't mean that's how the "bad" players you're trying to elevate do.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But as you've just said, it's a knowledge gap first and foremost. New players and casual players don't know you have to achieve that rhythm (actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks) and they don't know that you do better rotating skills in an order rather than spamming light attacks or button mashing. I do agree the timing requirements are pretty tight, optimally you have a 0.2s period between the LA cooldown and the skill cooldown to get your LA in so you can do your next skill bang on time.

And there's the other one. Honestly, even knowing that this is a playstyle concept makes me cringe. I have literally no interest in developing this kind of skill & timing. That's not a game being played for fun, anymore.

Luckily, I also have no interest in running dungeons and/or "pushing the envelope" to do vet/hardmode/trials/etc. So the fact I'm not interested in doing this is fine. But if the rest of the game was twisted into "training" to teach me that, and require it in regular questing/overland/delves/etc? Yeah, I'd be gone.

(honestly, the fact that you could casually toss out "actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks" is terrifying to me.

That seems beyond absurd to me - it's just a game.)

Joy_Division · April 2021

The reason why ZOS has failed in their goals to make this happen is because they try to do this via nerfing, which they somehow donl;t realize also makes the "floor" less potent than they already were.

When they nerf the crap out of my Templar, I just simply log onto one of my other 15 toons, theory craft to find out which one was least effected by their nerfs, and am pretty much play with roughly the same level of effectiveness, albeit I'm a bit salty for feeling forced to do so on a class I'm not really a fan of playing.

So the "ceiling" stays pretty much right where they are; they have the knowledge and skill to adapt to whatever ZOS nerfs.

Meanwhile, I'm not a big fan of generalizations, but I'd image the "floor" doesn;t have 15 leveled toons of 1000+ CP full of golden gear sets that go all the way back to 2014 with the theory-crafting knowledge to adapt to these changes, otherwise they wouldn't be the "floor." They have less ability to adapt, so have to eat the nerfs and thus the "floor" lowers.

At the end of the day, a game developer can't press a magic button to make mediocre players magically better without also having the top players also benefit.

As for the idea that ZOS could do a better job trying to teach players, did I step into a time machine or something? No game I have bought in the past 15 years has come with an instruction manual or really teaches players how to play. It's not done because it's a waste of time. There are people who just "open the box" and play and then there are people who voraciously read the manual. The manual readers now type "ESO tips strategies builds" into a google search and get 1000 times more (accurate) information than ZOS could ever put in an instruction manual or a tutorial. The proverbial instruction manual is easily accessible to every single player who logs in. If players have low DPS, it's not because the information on how to improve is not easily accessible, it's because their goals in playing ESO don;t amount to dedicating their time and effort to output good DPS.

Smitch_59 · April 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Couple thoughts

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Instead of having a quest boss be 30k HP, and dead the moment your pet looks at it, why not use these quest encounters to teach the players?

Not sure I've ever had that experience with a quest boss. And I know that I'm not as bad as some of the players out there. So that, right there, is a bit of a perspective issue - just because that's how knowledgeable/skilled players experience the quests, doesn't mean that's how the "bad" players you're trying to elevate do.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But as you've just said, it's a knowledge gap first and foremost. New players and casual players don't know you have to achieve that rhythm (actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks) and they don't know that you do better rotating skills in an order rather than spamming light attacks or button mashing. I do agree the timing requirements are pretty tight, optimally you have a 0.2s period between the LA cooldown and the skill cooldown to get your LA in so you can do your next skill bang on time.

And there's the other one. Honestly, even knowing that this is a playstyle concept makes me cringe. I have literally no interest in developing this kind of skill & timing. That's not a game being played for fun, anymore.

Luckily, I also have no interest in running dungeons and/or "pushing the envelope" to do vet/hardmode/trials/etc. So the fact I'm not interested in doing this is fine. But if the rest of the game was twisted into "training" to teach me that, and require it in regular questing/overland/delves/etc? Yeah, I'd be gone.

(honestly, the fact that you could casually toss out "actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks" is terrifying to me. That seems beyond absurd to me - it's just a game.)

Yeah, if metronome-like precision is required to play end-game content, then I guess I'll just sit here on the floor.

zvavi · April 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

The problem, as i see it, isn't as much boosting dmg at the buttom, as much as it's lack of education.

A bit long but long ago I have created a related thread.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524205/the-undaunted-certification-zvavi-is-bored-in-quarantine#latest

Gythral · April 2021

or is it just

"invalid location"
"307 Check you have a valid internety connection"
& hundreds of other similar issue

Gilvoth · April 2021

remove animation canceling and that will fix the problem.
classes also need to be removed but i know that will not happen, so all that can do right now is to remove animation canceling and it will balance out the damage output as was intended from the beginning.

Grandchamp1989 · April 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Couple thoughts

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Instead of having a quest boss be 30k HP, and dead the moment your pet looks at it, why not use these quest encounters to teach the players?

Not sure I've ever had that experience with a quest boss. And I know that I'm not as bad as some of the players out there. So that, right there, is a bit of a perspective issue - just because that's how knowledgeable/skilled players experience the quests, doesn't mean that's how the "bad" players you're trying to elevate do.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But as you've just said, it's a knowledge gap first and foremost. New players and casual players don't know you have to achieve that rhythm (actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks) and they don't know that you do better rotating skills in an order rather than spamming light attacks or button mashing. I do agree the timing requirements are pretty tight, optimally you have a 0.2s period between the LA cooldown and the skill cooldown to get your LA in so you can do your next skill bang on time.

And there's the other one. Honestly, even knowing that this is a playstyle concept makes me cringe. I have literally no interest in developing this kind of skill & timing. That's not a game being played for fun, anymore.

Luckily, I also have no interest in running dungeons and/or "pushing the envelope" to do vet/hardmode/trials/etc. So the fact I'm not interested in doing this is fine. But if the rest of the game was twisted into "training" to teach me that, and require it in regular questing/overland/delves/etc? Yeah, I'd be gone.

(honestly, the fact that you could casually toss out "actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks" is terrifying to me. That seems beyond absurd to me - it's just a game.)

That's literally what the tutorial does. You do the bashes, the heavy attack, the block etc.. And it doesn't seem like it scared you away lol. Sounds like you're making a huge deal out of nothing.

Assuming you would ragequit the game if it taught you to block an attack from a boss, in a safe and none threatening environment.. I'm not sure what to tell you. "If the game teaches me how to play it I'm goooone" lol wut?

This is the only game I've witnessed where you can play 500 hours, never get better at it and people are like "Awesome game design"

Every game ever teaches you have to play it.. People don't quit Super Mario because you have to jump and can't run through every level..... For some reason people have made it a crusade that learning anything in overland is the devil incarnated. I simply don't get it.

CableBomb · April 2021

I'm of the mind that if you want to be really good at any role in an MMO that you will need to and should reach out to members of the community and online resources.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2021

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

That's literally what the tutorial does. You do the bashes, the heavy attack, the block etc.. And it doesn't seem like it scared you away lol. Sounds like you're making a huge deal out of nothing.

There's a bit of a difference between the "here's how to bash" "oh, look. The enemy is doing a special attack, interrupt them", etc, that the tutorial does, and perfecting your ~55bpm LA/cancel rotation.

Which, as many people have mentioned, is part of the "how to play the game" that the game doesn't teach.

Heck, you even said earlier in the thread: "Zos complete and utter lack of teaching players how to play the game.. And no the "two interrupts, two heavy attacks" in the tutorial dosn't count."

Sanctum74 · April 2021

Gilvoth wrote: »

remove animation canceling and that will fix the problem.
classes also need to be removed but i know that will not happen, so all that can do right now is to remove animation canceling and it will balance out the damage output as was intended from the beginning.

Removing animation canceling won’t change much and would probably just lower the floor even more since they would be stuck in an animation unable to react.

Animation canceling is not the reason the floor just spam light/heavy attacks or just one skill without keeping any buffs, debuffs, or heals up. They would still do the same if ac was removed.

Practicing and learning game mechanics is how you raise the floor, we were all there at one point.

Nightowl_74 · April 2021

I like the idea of in-game tutorials. I'm of average skill at best and I'm never going to excel in very difficult content, but I would take advantage of repeatable tutorials with small rewards and probably improve over time. My motivation to learn rotations and mechanics, simply for the sake of doing it, is very low. I don't participate in group content or worry at all about how my performance compares to others and if I can manage to kill the stuff I want, I'm satisfied. However, I will practice when offered both an incentive and a somewhat fun way to do it in-game.

Whether ESO really has anything to gain from teaching players like myself, I don't know. If they want me in group content, yeah, providing a fun and worthwhile way to learn what's expected from my role and how to do it might accomplish that. Fifteen years ago when I discovered my first MMO it was fun "studying" outside sources and I probably spent...not half my time but a good chunk of it....researching how to play, but the novelty wore off long ago and these days I prefer to spend my game time actually in-game, playing.

xaraan · April 2021

To a degree "lowering the ceiling and raising the floor" is necessary for balance. But it risks going too far in that top end players can feel penalized (don't think that part has happened 'too' bad yet) and you can make things too easy for lower end players - that part has happened here to a degree.

You can see this in the lack of education for low end players on mechanics whether for specific fights or for general game mechanics.

Better design would help here. At this point the weakest part of the game seems to be that aspect of design. Normals are too easy and do not train you for vet versions of content at all and the flip side is that the hm vet versions are pretty much designed with comms in mind, a feature not built into the game (not that we all don't have access to it). And the fact that the top end players can skip certain mechs is bad design as well, that could be worked around to not have adds vanish when a boss dies or how different phases trigger. And you can tell zos doesn't know how to respond to feedback to make things harder, like when the testers say a vet HM trial is too easy, they just crank up the health and damage, which doesn't really make the fight harder for those top end players, just makes the fight overly punishing and boring like the final boss in vKA.

Usually its the players in the middle that get screwed over the most in the battle between floor and ceiling. The upper middle is usually hit harder by lowering of ceiling than actual ceiling players. And the lower middle now feels like the floor was handed everything for free that they've worked for.

The bigger problem IMO is that there have been so many balance changes and different concepts at every dungeon launch that it all needs a complete overhaul. It's pretty bad design that some dungeons needs a certain thing done for HM and some have a scroll, some have a banner, etc. They should all be uniform. Normals should be challenging enough to train you for the vet versions. There shouldn't be such a disparity in challenge between dungeons, they should all be fairly challenging on vet.

And in open world, things like world bosses are just as varied. With some being easily soloable, some being soloable with a high degree of challenge and a few being "almost" impossible to solo. Say what you want about what is and isn't "supposed" to be soloable, but if the game population doesn't support groups showing up to get as something as simple as a daily done, then they should design it to be soloable, even if challenging (even now in western skyrim I've had to solo most boss fights and there is an event and its the newest chapter). Bigger problem though is that they are so easy during peak times - new launch of content or event due to the zerg that almost no players actually learn any mechanics, so even if someone else does show up when you are standing at a boss later they are 99% of the time useless.

So I rambled on, but seems like I agree with several that the bigger issue is that zos doesn't seem to know how to educate players on how to play. Whether it's on their own rotations/builds or the mechanics of various fights.

Goregrinder · April 2021

Those who spend time developing a skill should always be rewarded by being better at that skill than someone who does not take the same time to develop it. Lowering the skill ceiling basically tells us that they don't want people to spend time getting good...that a fresh CP 160 toon will have the same level of success as someone who has played since beta. That is a system I do not want to see in any competitive mode. The whole purpose of a competitive mode is for players to compete against each other, not compete against RNG systems that lift lower skilled players to the hoop so they can dunk.

Iccotak · April 2021

I think tutorials can only do so much, and one should consider the possibility that there are not enough instances in overland combat that encourage the player to understand mechanics.

There are not any “Doshia’s” who put in the player in a position to think about what they’re doing.

you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools — but the “Big NPCs” usually don’t have any mechanics aside from the basic ones that pretty much all NPCs have.

A forward cone attack, a leap-over-strike, and so on. That means you end up fighting tougher regular NPCs with a larger health pool, it just takes a while to kill them and just slows things down. I don’t think that’s fun.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.

IonicKai · April 2021

ZOS made a step in the direction by exposing the advanced combat character stats in the menu (easily viewed by players). That said there are still so many things that your average player is unaware of.

From my experience most people who play ESO especially on console are often unfamiliar with MMOs. In game tutorials and complete lack of overland difficulty don't teach players how to play or force them to get stuck and look it up. This serves great for the player just looking to kill time but when those same players go into a vet dungeon after completing that dungeon on normal with relative ease they get a rude awakening and end up getting frustrated. Some of that group will go on to seek advice and learn but most won't bother or will blame it on other things like not having enough CP or not having meta gear set XYZ that they can't complete or find a team for either.

This artificial barrier is caused by almost pure lack of knowledge and motivation and should be addressed by additional tutorials (introduce the concept of layering dots, light attack weaving, how skills scale etc) mixed with most likely adjusting/ adding difficulty. I have long been a fan of the idea of having a difficulty between vet and normal (champion maybe?) where you get exposure to vet mechanics and perhaps vet health values but things don't necessarily turn into all one shots like vet. This inbetween difficulty could serve as the learning ground to force mechanics on those that stranded through the joke that is normal and give them a chance to practice tougher mechanics without being punished so hard for it.

VaranisArano · April 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Couple thoughts

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Instead of having a quest boss be 30k HP, and dead the moment your pet looks at it, why not use these quest encounters to teach the players?

Not sure I've ever had that experience with a quest boss. And I know that I'm not as bad as some of the players out there. So that, right there, is a bit of a perspective issue - just because that's how knowledgeable/skilled players experience the quests, doesn't mean that's how the "bad" players you're trying to elevate do.

ajkb78 wrote: »

But as you've just said, it's a knowledge gap first and foremost. New players and casual players don't know you have to achieve that rhythm (actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks) and they don't know that you do better rotating skills in an order rather than spamming light attacks or button mashing. I do agree the timing requirements are pretty tight, optimally you have a 0.2s period between the LA cooldown and the skill cooldown to get your LA in so you can do your next skill bang on time.

And there's the other one. Honestly, even knowing that this is a playstyle concept makes me cringe. I have literally no interest in developing this kind of skill & timing. That's not a game being played for fun, anymore.

Luckily, I also have no interest in running dungeons and/or "pushing the envelope" to do vet/hardmode/trials/etc. So the fact I'm not interested in doing this is fine. But if the rest of the game was twisted into "training" to teach me that, and require it in regular questing/overland/delves/etc? Yeah, I'd be gone.

(honestly, the fact that you could casually toss out "actually setting a metronome to 60bpm is too fast, you probably want it around 55-57bpm not to miss light attacks" is terrifying to me. That seems beyond absurd to me - it's just a game.)

Where I see new players struggle are on the bosses that do require a basic knowledge of how to be effective at ESO's combat.

Remember Doshia?

She wasn't hard...unless you didn't know that AOEs are really helpful in ESO combat or how to fight a harvesters I fought her on a level 15 Pact MagDK and had no clue about either. She was HARD! And then I fought her on my level 15 DC Stam Sorc and she was easy because I had the Hurricane AOE. She's a boss the Devs put in there to teach "Hey, you wanna have AOE skills. Hey, if you see those interrupt lines, you need to interrupt the boss!" (Me, being rather slow about it, did not learn to interrupt harvesters until around level 48 Coldharbor.)

The most recent offender is K'tora from Summerset. Again, this was the first time many new players faced the need to pace themselves against a boss, to use AOE DOTs like Volley or wall of elements against the continually spawning mobs, to heavy attack to regain resources, and to do constant free damage from light attacks when they ran out of resources for skills.

It's a good boss fight! And it teaches a lot of skills necessary for doing anything harder than fighting overland mobs. And it was also stopping some new players in their tracks until they learned how to fight effectively in ESO.

ESO already has some bosses that teach game mechanics. I'd argue that it has too few.

Part of the issue that new players face when they try harder content is that all of a sudden, basic gameplay cues become more important. In overland questing, most players can stand in the red or survive a charge attack - well, it doesn't work like that in harder group content. Interrupting is more important.

And without bosses like Doshia and K'tora and Mannimarco to teach players that they've got to pace themselves, they've got to learn to deal damage and self-heal, they've got to use their light and heavy attacks, their AOEs and their DOTs, then all we're left with is a lack of tutorials and a trial-by-fire when they first set foot in Group Content.

That's a worse experience for those players than if we gradually introduce those gameplay tactics via quest bosses.

Kiralyn2000 · April 2021

Goregrinder wrote: »

Those who spend time developing a skill should always be rewarded by being better at that skill than someone who does not take the same time to develop it. Lowering the skill ceiling basically tells us that they don't want people to spend time getting good...that a fresh CP 160 toon will have the same level of success as someone who has played since beta.

You can 'lower the ceiling' without lowering the skill ceiling. Reducing the results you get from Absolute BIS Gear & Skill, isn't the same as removing the skill that's needed to get those numbers. If your perfect rotation & build gets you twice the DPS needed to clear the highest content, rather than 4x the DPS needed, you still needed your perfect build, rotation, and skill to get there, and a bad player still won't match it.

(When the range of DPS between bad players & top players gets too wide, it causes problems with even being able to design & balance new content. That can be seen in games like Star Trek Online, where low-end players might make 10k DPS, and the best players in the "DPS League" are pushing 500k.)

Gilvoth · April 2021

the people who animation cancel, are doing more damage. (by a Huge amount)
if that animation canceling is removed their damage Height is removed.

the people who do not animation cancel, will then be doing the same amount of damage as everyone else.
that will fix and balance the amount of damage output and make it equal for everyone.
it will lower the ceiling and raise the floor, allowing the damage to be equal and balanced for all.

removing animation canceling truely is the only way to fix the damage imbalances.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2021

You will never decrease the gap in any meaningful way between people working on Godslayer and potatoes in GF in a random normal, without completely gutting combat. Those two groups of people simply aren't playing the same game.

Its not about group buffs or gear sets, it is about rotation. Most people will never practice their rotation enough to make a meaningful difference in DPS. Since I don't want combat to be gutted and have this game turned into an auto attack/tab target nightmare, I really wish they would just accept this and focus on other things. Increasing base states helps a bit, but that's about all they can do (other than perhaps significantly more robust tutorials).

The gap you can potentially look to reduce is between a mid tier player, done all the trials, maybe some or most of the hardmodes, and those at the very top. Here, things like group buffs come into play a lot more. But that said, its still about rotation. Any group can attempt to copy Meta group comps and gear.

I really only see two potential ways to reduce that gap from a rotation standpoint.

1. Limit the damage of light attacks. I frankly don't love this approach, but it would be successful to some degree. There are lots of players that can put out a LA ratio of .9+ on a dummy. But what really separates those at the top is that they keep it up in combat. If LAs did less damage, the gap would be smaller.

2. Standardize skill rotations. I like this approach a bit better. I would not advocate making all DOTs/Buffs the same length, because that would be boring, but I do think they could take a look at each class, and try to standardized durations so that the gap between a static rotation and dynamic rotation is a bit less. This is the other thing that really separates those at the top. There may not be a huge difference on a dummy between a standard and dynamic rotation, but a well played dynamic rotation is going to pull further ahead in actual content.

Goregrinder · April 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

Those who spend time developing a skill should always be rewarded by being better at that skill than someone who does not take the same time to develop it. Lowering the skill ceiling basically tells us that they don't want people to spend time getting good...that a fresh CP 160 toon will have the same level of success as someone who has played since beta.

You can 'lower the ceiling' without lowering the skill ceiling. Reducing the results you get from Absolute BIS Gear & Skill, isn't the same as removing the skill that's needed to get those numbers. If your perfect rotation & build gets you twice the DPS needed to clear the highest content, rather than 4x the DPS needed, you still needed your perfect build, rotation, and skill to get there, and a bad player still won't match it.

(When the range of DPS between bad players & top players gets too wide, it causes problems with even being able to design & balance new content. That can be seen in games like Star Trek Online, where low-end players might make 10k DPS, and the best players in the "DPS League" are pushing 500k.)

You're saying you can lower the skill ceiling without lowering the skill ceiling? Or what other ceiling is there besides the skill ceiling?