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Overland content and combat
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Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭[Quoted post was removed]
Maybe it's because people who would like such a change or the ability to play on a higher difficulty level are attacked? And we just want a reasonable discussion. The topic won't end by itself by closing threads, because the problem is real and appears quite often not only on the forums but also in the game.
A small digression in spoiler.Yes it's true that there is more difficult content such as vet dungs and trials, the problem is that the majority of the game is Overland, new quests for chapters, the main storyline and thousands of other quests simply become unplayable..
All of us started at some point, all of us struggled with new challenges and all of us managed. I remember when I first started ESO, nothing made me happier than a new skill that made my character stronger or the small improvements I made every day. The first time I dared to attack a world boss on my own and the beating I took. I used to love PvE in ESO more than anything else. I had 6 characters before the introduction of champion points and on all of them quest after quest I passed all zones. And now? I don't even bother to look at the new chapters.
Here is a proposal to solve the problem.
So as not to prolong, here are some solutions other than the ones proposed so far.
We increase the overall difficulty of overland, we don't create vet zones and we introduce a new optional buff (not like level scaling which is mandatory). New buff is strong enough that players who use it will not feel any difference in strength of overland opponents. This solution does not require instantiation and does not require re-logging. You can use and remove the buff at any time. Do you feel that your opponents are too much of a challenge for you? Turn on the buff and the problem is over.
Advantages of the solution.
1. no instantiation.
2. possibility to play together even in the same group of players expecting a challenge and those who just want to go through the content without any problems.
3. if new players feel bored they can try the challenge at any time without worrying about losing quest progression etc.
To be considered is whether or not we want to add to the buff, penalty to XP and gold for killing enemies. Before you look at it from the perspective of "Definitely not because it forces you not to use the buff" consider the implications of such an approach. The lack of a penalty to XP and gold means that veterans can turn on the buff and grind on spots with even greater ease, increasing their advantage.
The penalty to XP and Gold could only apply from (just a suggestion) 600CP and increase as new CPs are gained. This way it is the veterans who are more encouraged not to use the buff while new players can play unchanged without worrying about anything. But as I said, this is only a proposal and it would be up for debate whether such a debuff is needed at all.
How is this any different than introducing a debuff that people who want harder battles can use? All it does is change which group is forced to use a thing, but forces the change on those who do not WANT a change rather than those who demand things be changed to please them.
This so much. This is how I see this whole discussion. I am a casual player, I like overland content it's what I have leveled my characters on. I am just now finding the courage to do some group content with my guild and so far it's been once. Thankfully we have a very patient teacher who leads us. I quit this game because of craglorn forced grouping content and would do so again if it gravitated back to that. I remember all the crying on these forums about no one being around to group with to complete content in craglorn. Because of forced overly hard group content that locks quests and stories behind it. No thanks, I don't play MMO's to increase my twitch skills as I am a older player my racing around pressing keys is limited. I have arthritis in my hands it hurts to have to constantly move but I try.
Why would Zos want to penalize me by making it harder on me and those like me. Are we suppose to just quit because hey I've done that before I can find another game sure but I want to enjoy the other activities Zos has provided us with such as exploring, fishing, scrying, furniture quests, delves and housing and the occasional trial with my guild or dungeon. I don't want to spend all my time fight through a group of monsters to get to the mound I just scryed or picking up a piece for a antiquities quest that requires me to get 16 more pieces. So I would have 100 more fights over land that require me to either spend 5 to 10 mins clearing or having to get a friend to help me. That is not fun and it's not inclusive it then becomes a chore. I can do chores around my house if I want to not in a game.
I am not here to consume all the content and rush to the top I am here to enjoy the ride. Zos has done a great job including wide sets of play style. What is a challenge for you maybe impossible for another but hey they don't count do they? When will people learn that a computer or ai is only as smart as the people who program it and the only difference between you and the computer is your biological limitations therefore if you want a real challenge go fight other players. With other players as your opponent you will have all the unpredictability you want in a fight.7 -
Aardappelboom✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »
Take all your armour off and/or use non-optimal weapons and skills. Zenimax don't have to do this for you.
I see it differently simply because taking off your gear and using non-optimal skills is not a fun experience. There is a ton of potential for zones to make some non-meta builds more viable and allow for some build and gear diversity in overlandetchedpixels wrote: »
It's also very hard to balance game scaling - my necrotank has 80K health and does little damage, my stamplar does 30-40K on real world targets but ends up a bit dead rather easily. How do you make scaling work for both cases let alone do it when grouped.
Is it? Because it's the exact same situation in almost every other game, you have more health: you die less, do more damage and you kill faster. Honestly though, if we take Craglorn as an example you'll have to balance around a few stats to survive and deal dmg. The only problem this may cause is that you may have to adjust your build slightly to solo overland while dungeon content and PVP have other viable builds you'll want to pursue. But with companions and hopefully one day a load-out system, this could be easily solved.
By the way if you read my post I suggested a system where you can choose to lower difficulty, which would also solve the problem for some.etchedpixels wrote: »
The current scaling system doesn't work that well either. It's certainly fit for purpose in letting newer players wander the world and heroically save bits of it in any order, but once you've actually mastered the skills and buffs properly you can massacre overland content on almost any level toon and certainly by level 20 or so solo dolmens and the like.
I fully agree! Which is why I think they should take another look at it and try to improve.
Edited by Aardappelboom on April 10, 2021 12:57PM2 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭I've made a pretty long initial comment on this topic before, so I will summarize it with a TL;DR
I've played the game before One Tamriel, and it was a good time, where stealth actually had some proper purpose
If you think that the game is "Eays to me just because I played for a long time", then ask my girlfriend and she will tell you the same, that the game isn't challenging in the slightest. If people are genuinely challenged by things in the world, then they either never played any videogame ever, or have played games only on the easiest difficulties.Actually, a LOT can be done ABOUT the playerbase having such a wide skill gap. The single main reason playerbase has such a wide skill gap at all is because overland, the content you see first as you start the game, and (unless you specifically search for other actitivities, but that can be hard at lower levels) the content you do the most (at least until some point, anyway), is so damn easy it teaches you nothing.
I remember the days of original ESO and vet zones where running into 3 enemies (non-elite, just standard trash ones) was actually a challenge. I remember spending hours on main storyline quests. Yes, I was also a much less experienced and good player then than I am now, but that's the point - it taught me things. I'm not even talking about 100k dps, I'm talking about simple things such as block, dodge, bash, don't stand in red, use food, use potions, use damage shields. It's astonishing just how many players have no idea about that these days.
It's ironic that there're people praising overland for 'accessible to everyone with no toxic players interruption' but overland IS probably the biggest issue of the game and the single biggest cause of toxicity in harder content. It teaches new players that standing in red, ignoring mechs, running no build/set/anything and just spamming light attacks is a perfectly valid gamestyle for all of the game, it keeps teaching this to them for however long they like.
I've edited a bit to not make the quote too big. But this is basically what I saw anytime me and my girlfriend played together; Overland was easy, where we could do whatever we wanted and things would die and deal no damage to us.
So when we decided to do Veteran dungeons, she was doing what she kept doing while we were leveling, and they kept trying to kick her out, until she decided to leave by herself due to being annoyed with the rudeness.
It's a Catch 22 if you ask me: Overland does nothing to prepare you for anything harder than Overland and Normal dungeons, if you try to do Veteran dungeons you'll get kicked. What's the point of getting better at that point then?etchedpixels wrote: »Take all your armour off and/or use non-optimal weapons and skills. Zenimax don't have to do this for you.
How many times does it have to be told that this is a non-solution that, unsurprisingly, doesn't work.
You can take off your armor, run around naked, use whatever you want, but the fact is that enemies will REMAIN easy, and they won't deal any hard damage to you nor will they take much of a beating before falling over dead.
My Thief character currently has gear that only boosts his stealth capabilities, crafted unmodified gear and gear that doesn't boost my offensive stas by a bunch.
Long story short: I can spam a single ability repeatedly and kill everything without any fear of getting killed. So much fun!2 -
Daimonion82✭✭✭✭By The Eight and All Tribunal! When this "overland too easy" trend will stop? Go solo Walks Like Thunder in Murkmire or Ri'Atarashi in Elsweyr if you're that good and stop complaining.
Leave overland as it is. Even in current state I often need to skip dailies in Summerset because there is no one to help with world bosses and I don't have time to wait 30 mins till more people will gather.8 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭We have a mmo with a harder overland on the market right now, it’s called Fallout 76.
It had a dedicated fan base, like Elder Scrolls. And it has a much harder overland then ESO.
Just to walk down a road, players need a proper build. World events can one shot players and getting killed has consequences.
The result? F76 has roughly 1/3 of the player base eso has (go check the steam charts yourself).
https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340
Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
And eso does not have a sufficient population to break up the world into casual and an abstract concept of vet levels. (A vet level based on whose experience? Your personal expertise? Or that player who is way better then you? Or maybe that other player who is way worse? How does zos determine the “right” difficulty?)
Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players.
Do you know what you just used as a comparison? Fallout 76, a game that is a repurposed Fallout 4, which was already received with a mixed reception from the fanbase, a game that launched in a very shoddy state and took a long time in order to look anything close to a Fallout game (I.E add NPCs that weren't robots).
And for the record, I played that game, and I didn't stop playing it because "Oh the overland is hard, the enemies are so dangerous", I stopped playing it because I didn't have ANYTHING to do in the form of quests. It was one of those "Early Access open world survival games" that tried to pretend to be an online game for a beloved franchise.
"Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave."
This just tells me that you have no faith in these players, and don't actually care if they get better at the game or not. I say this as a "Casual player" who doesn't have the ambitions to do high-stakes Veteran Trials, but is still someone who'd like to have a modicum of challenge playing the game.
I asked my girlfriend if the Overland makes her feel like she'd want to get better at the game. She told me that she isn't that motivated, that she'd only consider it if it meant doing dungeons with me. But knowing her, she wouldn't do them often because we don't have two other players to play with, and pugs are typically horrible people with unrealistic expectations.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
Ironically enough, a lot of these games are harder than ESO is. I insist in my belief that the only people who would realistically struggle against the basic overland enemies in this game, are people who have never played any action RPG game, or play games on the easiest difficulty.
"ESO doesn't have a sufficient playerbase"
Meanwhile it is ranked as one of the most popular MMO games on the market. I'd believe that statement if the game wasn't doing well or wasn't really played. Another fallacy if you ask me, and with the introduction of these Companions, it seems like that the game really is being tailored more towards the "Solo player" than anything, so it wouldn't be too unrealistic of an idea to say that "Instances tailored to your experience" would be a reality. I mean, the technology is already there with how much phasing is being utilized.
"Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players."
Games I have played:
World of Warcraft, both Classic and Retail versions: Fairly popular, Classic arguably being appreciated a whole lot more, and that one is considered to be "Harder" in terms of having zones that are properly threatening to a degree. Certainly more threatening in comparison to ESO.
Guild wars 2: A game that frequently has events happen and enemies that put up a fight, especially in the max level zones.
And those two games remain popular and among the "Top MMO games of all time" lists, alongside ESO.
I'm only harsh about this game's overland difficulty because I am passionate about the game itself. I like it, I enjoy playing it. I'd enjoy it a lot more if i could play my characters at max level in the Overland without feeling like I am playing Oblivion with the difficulty slider being put all the way to the left.Edited by Daraklus on April 10, 2021 1:31PM1 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭✭We have a mmo with a harder overland on the market right now, it’s called Fallout 76.
It had a dedicated fan base, like Elder Scrolls. And it has a much harder overland then ESO.
Just to walk down a road, players need a proper build. World events can one shot players and getting killed has consequences.
The result? F76 has roughly 1/3 of the player base eso has (go check the steam charts yourself).
https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340
Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
And eso does not have a sufficient population to break up the world into casual and an abstract concept of vet levels. (A vet level based on whose experience? Your personal expertise? Or that player who is way better then you? Or maybe that other player who is way worse? How does zos determine the “right” difficulty?)
Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players.
Using F76 as example of harder overland and stating that because of that it have lower playerbase is such a mental gymnastic, I'm shocked anyone can treat your post seriosuly.
F76 have lower playerbase for a lot of reasons, game was dumpster fire for more then a year, had terrible launch, godly awful PR and was more of a famous meme instead of valid choice for most of gaming community.
We can use the same stupid example to advocate for harder gaming overland (check PoE numbers, much harder game with twice more average players per month then eso with 100k+ peak every 3 months. Definietely the reasons must be only in difficulty! [that is the same type of stupid argument that is wrong and also bring nothing to the discussion])
Like for real, for many players overland is the problem because it lacks fun. We try to disccuss solutions, why you are trying to make a fool of ppl here?
I always hear people say things like "noobs leave game because game too hard." Then I look around, then I ask around, and I have invited plenty of friends to play ESO and other games. And you know what? I hear the completely opposite thing. I hear that people leave because they perceive the combat as dull and when I dig further it always comes down to "combat is dull in overland."
Most people who play games actually enjoy learning, they enjoy getting better. That's why path of exile is more popular than Diablo 3 (among many other things)- it's more challenging and therefore more rewarding once you actually improve.
But we are not asking to turn ESO into Dark Souls here, are we? We are not asking for more Craglorn, because everybody knows that forced grouping sucks. ESO is mostly overland. We want the biggest chunk of the game to be fun instead of dull. That's what we want. We want to feel something when we kill the new big baddie. At the moment I only feel mild annoyance, like a stupid fly is trying to land on my face, it poses no danger, I just want it gone.
And yeah, I understand that there is a small amount of players who are maybe new to gaming in general, have slow reactions, have wrist problems (I have wrist problems myself, I know how much that sucks), etc. But hey! We are getting companions soon! They will literally be helping noobs in overland content. I also don't mind overland having different difficulty modes or whatever. I don't want the game to be less fun for others, i just want it to be more fun for people like myself.3 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭Daimonion82 wrote: »By The Eight and All Tribunal! When this "overland too easy" trend will stop? Go solo Walks Like Thunder in Murkmire or Ri'Atarashi in Elsweyr if you're that good and stop complaining.
Leave overland as it is. Even in current state I often need to skip dailies in Summerset because there is no one to help with world bosses and I don't have time to wait 30 mins till more people will gather.
World Bosses are meant to be fought with a group. That's kind of what their purpose is. Unfair comparison.
And this "Trend" isn't gonna be stopping anytime soon. As I am pretty sure the people who want a harder Overland likely care more about potential prospects for Veteran dungeons/trials and the general playerbase, because they realize more than anyone that a game that does nothing to prepare you for anything harder will result in... The playerbase being weak skill-wise, while the people who do the harder stuff look like jerks with unrealistic expectations.3 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭We have a mmo with a harder overland on the market right now, it’s called Fallout 76.
It had a dedicated fan base, like Elder Scrolls. And it has a much harder overland then ESO.
Just to walk down a road, players need a proper build. World events can one shot players and getting killed has consequences.
The result? F76 has roughly 1/3 of the player base eso has (go check the steam charts yourself).
https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340
Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
And eso does not have a sufficient population to break up the world into casual and an abstract concept of vet levels. (A vet level based on whose experience? Your personal expertise? Or that player who is way better then you? Or maybe that other player who is way worse? How does zos determine the “right” difficulty?)
Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players.
Using F76 as example of harder overland and stating that because of that it have lower playerbase is such a mental gymnastic, I'm shocked anyone can treat your post seriosuly.
F76 have lower playerbase for a lot of reasons, game was dumpster fire for more then a year, had terrible launch, godly awful PR and was more of a famous meme instead of valid choice for most of gaming community.
We can use the same stupid example to advocate for harder gaming overland (check PoE numbers, much harder game with twice more average players per month then eso with 100k+ peak every 3 months. Definietely the reasons must be only in difficulty! [that is the same type of stupid argument that is wrong and also bring nothing to the discussion])
Like for real, for many players overland is the problem because it lacks fun. We try to disccuss solutions, why you are trying to make a fool of ppl here?
I always hear people say things like "noobs leave game because game too hard." Then I look around, then I ask around, and I have invited plenty of friends to play ESO and other games. And you know what? I hear the completely opposite thing. I hear that people leave because they perceive the combat as dull and when I dig further it always comes down to "combat is dull in overland."
Most people who play games actually enjoy learning, they enjoy getting better. That's why path of exile is more popular than Diablo 3 (among many other things)- it's more challenging and therefore more rewarding once you actually improve.
But we are not asking to turn ESO into Dark Souls here, are we? We are not asking for more Craglorn, because everybody knows that forced grouping sucks. ESO is mostly overland. We want the biggest chunk of the game to be fun instead of dull. That's what we want. We want to feel something when we kill the new big baddie. At the moment I only feel mild annoyance, like a stupid fly is trying to land on my face, it poses no danger, I just want it gone.
And yeah, I understand that there is a small amount of players who are maybe new to gaming in general, have slow reactions, have wrist problems (I have wrist problems myself, I know how much that sucks), etc. But hey! We are getting companions soon! They will literally be helping noobs in overland content. I also don't mind overland having different difficulty modes or whatever. I don't want the game to be less fun for others, i just want it to be more fun for people like myself.
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Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:01PM4 -
Ergele✭✭✭majority of the game is overland content yet since it is too easy veteran players can not enjoy it.
Who wants to pay 60 bucks for one raid/trial?4 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭"MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey."
Yah, every major story line for the past few years boils down to chasing a big bad who yacks at you every time you run into them but then escapes because of their plot armor only to be snuffed out the first chance I get at him. Spoils the stakes of the story for me when the thing everyone was worried about was a roach with a top hat.
"why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?"
You make weapons and armor to kill, cook food to buff you to kill, brew potions and poisons to kill, with the only outlier being housing which does feature the ability to show off bust of things you've killed. Nearly every quest and probably all main story quest center around combat, which in ESO, is capable of being fun and engaging but for overland is currently very dull for those who chose to learn how to play and doesn't give newer players a path to doing other things. Do a few random dungeons and see players who only understand how to light attack because that's all overland ever asked of them.
I haven't been able to look forward to any piece of ESO story content for years, with the exception of the year of the dragon because of the lore and world building we got. Every time an npc runs up to me going "do you know how long i've been looking for you" all I can do is run past them as soon as I can else be dragged into a series of uneventful chases until finally we corner the bad guy of the week and kick his teeth in. People who have invested themselves heavily in the game and do a lot of the more challenging content sometimes want to enjoy the story and explore the world, but given it's current state it is more like eating a loaf of stale bread, and all self nerfing does is extend that duration, nothing more. We want to do stuff beyond 'going back to trials and dungeons' because ESO offers more, it's just a shame the potential of this game falls short since overland may as well be turn based with the AI skipping well over half of their turns.3 -
HalfRain216✭✭✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
Crafting exists to create armor sets for fighting monsters...
Trading exists to either buy armor to fight monsters or sell armor to get gold for more armor..
Housing exists to show off your achievements off the monster you have fought.
Not disagreeing but everything does come back to gold which then goes on to use for better weapons and armor to fight monsters.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:01PM3 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
[snip]
Second of all. Like it or not, this is an mmo. A certain segment of players is already gated from certain content. Like, trials. Also people who don't buy new chapters are gated from content in the chapters. And so on. Funny thing is, you seem to assume that I'm one of those evil players at the top of the leaderboards, who wants all the noobs to fail and delete the game. That could not be further from the truth. My main character runs a self made frost dps build. I get kicked from pugs because people don't trust frost dps builds. I do light attack animation cancelling when I run trials, but it causes a lot of pain in my wrists, so I avoid pretty much all content that requires it. For that reason I also run trials and vet as little as possible.
Third. Mmos are a journey for me. That's exactly why I want to enjoy overland. Overland is the journey, it contains most of the quests. The actually fun stuff for the casual players. The competition does not happen in overland, it happens in trials.
Fourth. Zos absolutely knows best about all those things. They have all the numbers. But I think we should both be aware that this game does not only live from casuals. Nor does it only live from the top players. Everyone is needed here, mmos don't survive long without one group or the other. The "game will lose customers if it caters to interests I do not support" is an empty threat. Always was, always will be. Every live service game gets hundreds of those threats with every single update. People going "mimimi I cancel sub now, good job devs, game will die now, blah blah." And nothing ever changes. Few people leave, few people join, few people cry and threaten and still buy the sub.
Once again though. I do not want to gate anyone from anything. I'd be fine with difficulty modes where nothing except the difficulty changes. i don't even want additional rewards. I only want to have more fun with the game.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:03PM2 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
[snip]
Some of us just want to have fun in overland too. And, believe it or not, a lot of us more experienced players actually enjoy questing too. A lot of us actually came here from Skyrim and stayed first and foremost because of the storyline. Yet we can no longer enjoy questing because it simply isn't immersive (even if you run around naked and with 0 cp. Still isn't). All that deep, well-written, awesomely voiced, epically music-ed, gorgeously visualized story, all the beautiful huge zones...all of that wasted when you one-shot the big baddy within 2 seconds before even realizing it's the big baddy.
Once again. We don't want more casual playerbase to lose all of their fun. But we do want to have some fun ourselves. Having zones which are 100% newbie-friendly is cool, even having a lot of them is fine. But having 100% of the game's open-world (which IS the biggest part of the game) 100% newbie-friendly is not cool because it's effectively punishing players who get out of the 'newbie' field.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:00PM4 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
Is anyone talking to you directly about what would be best for you in order to patronize you? No. If anything, all I implied is that it'd be better for players in general to have an Overland that challenges them even a little bit (Not one-shot people but put up a proper fight), so that they'd have a reasonable foundation to work off of when wanting to do anything harder.
This ain't an opinion, this is just a fact. I've found myself getting bored faster with games on easier difficulties than when I put them on a harder difficulty. I am confident that I am not the only one thinking this.
"I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing."
Then I don't care what you have to say on anything in regards to the game, if you ever approach me with anything.
That being said, Abelon himself said that he had people come to play this game, only to stop playing it because they found the game boring. I doubt it is the "Floaty combat" at fault for this, more likely the Overland having enemies outside of World Bosses posing no immediate danger.
"I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers."
World of Warcraft Classic has been received very well and is considered to be the better variant of the game. And it has enemies that pose a danger.
You just don't want the game to pose even a smidget of danger to you, because you want everything to be easy and get everything you want from the world without any effort put on your part. As someone who has a crafting character and regularly go on resupply runs, I can safely say that I'd welcome a bit more of a fight from monsters when I am gathering Rubedite.
Edit: Posters above me are putting it more elegantly than me, so read their posts.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:01PM3 -
oregonrob✭✭✭This issue keeps coming up. The casual player does not want to play DLC dungeons. The experienced player wants a harder overland, yet if anyone suggests making DLC dungeons easier so that they can be soloed, they get upset.
I have been playing ESO for four years and my main character died in overland yesterday because I got stuck in the water and a bunch of Kava bugs killed him. The moral here is that, yes, while overland is easy, it does not mean that an experienced player cannot be surprised.
The saying Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's applies here. Overland is for the casual player. Everything else is for the experienced player. Don't make overland harder, and don't make DLC dungeons and other content for experienced players easier. This game has appeal for everyone and not just niche players.0 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This issue keeps coming up. The casual player does not want to play DLC dungeons. The experienced player wants a harder overland, yet if anyone suggests making DLC dungeons easier so that they can be soloed, they get upset.
I have been playing ESO for four years and my main character died in overland yesterday because I got stuck in the water and a bunch of Kava bugs killed him. The moral here is that, yes, while overland is easy, it does not mean that an experienced player cannot be surprised.
The saying Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's applies here. Overland is for the casual player. Everything else is for the experienced player. Don't make overland harder, and don't make DLC dungeons and other content for experienced players easier. This game has appeal for everyone and not just niche players.
But there is a normal version of every dlc dungeon, arena and even trial for casuals. Where is the veteran version of overland for more experienced players then?4 -
HalfRain216✭✭✭This issue keeps coming up. The casual player does not want to play DLC dungeons. The experienced player wants a harder overland, yet if anyone suggests making DLC dungeons easier so that they can be soloed, they get upset.
I have been playing ESO for four years and my main character died in overland yesterday because I got stuck in the water and a bunch of Kava bugs killed him. The moral here is that, yes, while overland is easy, it does not mean that an experienced player cannot be surprised.
The saying Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's applies here. Overland is for the casual player. Everything else is for the experienced player. Don't make overland harder, and don't make DLC dungeons and other content for experienced players easier. This game has appeal for everyone and not just niche players.
But there is a normal version of every dlc dungeon, arena and even trial for casuals. Where is the veteran version of overland for more experienced players then?
Like Craglorn was why can’t there be more zones that are for experienced players only. The whole idea of games is you practice get better and tackle harder content so if they feel like they are missing out on an area that is the whole idea play more get better so you can eventually go into those zones.2 -
Abelon✭✭✭✭✭This issue keeps coming up. The casual player does not want to play DLC dungeons. The experienced player wants a harder overland, yet if anyone suggests making DLC dungeons easier so that they can be soloed, they get upset.
I have been playing ESO for four years and my main character died in overland yesterday because I got stuck in the water and a bunch of Kava bugs killed him. The moral here is that, yes, while overland is easy, it does not mean that an experienced player cannot be surprised.
The saying Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's applies here. Overland is for the casual player. Everything else is for the experienced player. Don't make overland harder, and don't make DLC dungeons and other content for experienced players easier. This game has appeal for everyone and not just niche players.
I once went afk for 20 minutes in the middle of Kava bugs, and when I came back they killed me. "Wow, how surprising" I did not think to myself, as I used a soul gem to revive at the very same place and continued on with the game.
I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, that's just kind of what your story sounded like to me. I do agree that players can be surprised in overland content, but that does not necessarily make it fun.
Also once again. There are many casual players asking for more difficult overland. I am casual. I don't like to play vet and trials, I want fun overland!2 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭But there is a normal version of every dlc dungeon, arena and even trial for casuals. Where is the veteran version of overland for more experienced players then?
Normal is just that... the baseline dungeons, arenas, trials and overland story line quests for the normal player. There is plenty of veteran content for those who want to push themselves beyond the normal game. But to expect them to use precious resources to create and maintain a second version of everything for a small minority of players who will most likely end up quitting anyway, is not reasonable.
[snip]
Veteran overland failed. They are not going to bring it back.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 3:54PMPCNA0 -
Daraklus✭✭✭✭This issue keeps coming up. The casual player does not want to play DLC dungeons. The experienced player wants a harder overland, yet if anyone suggests making DLC dungeons easier so that they can be soloed, they get upset.
I have been playing ESO for four years and my main character died in overland yesterday because I got stuck in the water and a bunch of Kava bugs killed him. The moral here is that, yes, while overland is easy, it does not mean that an experienced player cannot be surprised.
Normal dungeons say hello. They are already on the "Easy" scale.
However that being said, I saw no one saying anything about "Make dungeons easier" and to see people against it. Maybe against it if it would effect Veteran dungeons as well (Which let's be honest, wouldn't be too outlandish to assume that Zenimax would nerf them just as well).
If anything I've seen people talk about wanting dungeons that have mechanics that require two players to be soloable by removing said mechanic from play if there is only one player present.
Ah, so you got killed by enemies because you got stuck in something. I got killed in Overland because I went to the bathroom in the middle of of a camp that had enemies spawn in. "Human error" in bad luck or carelessness shouldn't serve as an argument against making something even a little bit threatening to make the world feel a bit more "Alive", as one might put it.
Exactly. Normal difficulty in dungeons is all 'round very forgiving.But there is a normal version of every dlc dungeon, arena and even trial for casuals. Where is the veteran version of overland for more experienced players then?
I can only agree with disabling certain mechanics to make dungeons soloable properly, without encountering a stop-gap because they need a second player to get them out of a one-hit kill scenario.
Edit:SilverBride wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
[Edited to remove reference to removed content]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 3:55PM2 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personally, I'd like to see more depth in the overland content. Take the bandits in TES V for example, at any level you could encounter them at varying difficulties, which added significant challenge for lower levelled players. We have different types of enemies in ESO, but if ZOS updated them so each was a varying level of difficulty than it would add much more challenge. Additionally, I also think some overland enemies like trolls and bears should be much more difficult to kill.
I'd also like to see delve bosses made harder - they don't need to be anywhere as hard as world bosses, but they need to be more difficult for a solo player to kill. In most delves they are easier than the mobs because of the all the cc's that the latter utilise. This isn't right.
ZOS needs to be brave, and not worry about players dying to overland content. I fully agree that overland content needs to be doable by a level 1 with no champion points but it needs to teach players how to play the game and it needs to have consequences if you don't know how to. At the moment you could blow on your controller/ keyboard and kill overland enemies.
That being said, One Tamriel made a huge improvement to ESO, and I don't want to go back to a point where a skeever in one zone was more dangerous than a troll in another.
I agree.
There is no hierarchy amongst enemy units in ESO.
Take Draugr- in TESV they had a hierarchy of increasing difficulty and abilities at their disposal, with Deathlords & Dragon Priests at the top.
Or Bandits who had highwayman & chiefs that were considerably more dangerous than the lowly Bandit.
A Bear and Tiger were more dangerous than wolves.
There was definitely a difference between fighting a mortal humanoid vs a dremora
I think we get the point though.
In ESO enemies feel too equally incompetent.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We have a mmo with a harder overland on the market right now, it’s called Fallout 76.
It had a dedicated fan base, like Elder Scrolls. And it has a much harder overland then ESO.
Just to walk down a road, players need a proper build. World events can one shot players and getting killed has consequences.
The result? F76 has roughly 1/3 of the player base eso has (go check the steam charts yourself).
https://steamcharts.com/app/306130
https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340
Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
And eso does not have a sufficient population to break up the world into casual and an abstract concept of vet levels. (A vet level based on whose experience? Your personal expertise? Or that player who is way better then you? Or maybe that other player who is way worse? How does zos determine the “right” difficulty?)
Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players.
Do you know what you just used as a comparison? Fallout 76, a game that is a repurposed Fallout 4, which was already received with a mixed reception from the fanbase, a game that launched in a very shoddy state and took a long time in order to look anything close to a Fallout game (I.E add NPCs that weren't robots).
And for the record, I played that game, and I didn't stop playing it because "Oh the overland is hard, the enemies are so dangerous", I stopped playing it because I didn't have ANYTHING to do in the form of quests. It was one of those "Early Access open world survival games" that tried to pretend to be an online game for a beloved franchise.
"Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave."
This just tells me that you have no faith in these players, and don't actually care if they get better at the game or not. I say this as a "Casual player" who doesn't have the ambitions to do high-stakes Veteran Trials, but is still someone who'd like to have a modicum of challenge playing the game.
I asked my girlfriend if the Overland makes her feel like she'd want to get better at the game. She told me that she isn't that motivated, that she'd only consider it if it meant doing dungeons with me. But knowing her, she wouldn't do them often because we don't have two other players to play with, and pugs are typically horrible people with unrealistic expectations.
ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.
Ironically enough, a lot of these games are harder than ESO is. I insist in my belief that the only people who would realistically struggle against the basic overland enemies in this game, are people who have never played any action RPG game, or play games on the easiest difficulty.
"ESO doesn't have a sufficient playerbase"
Meanwhile it is ranked as one of the most popular MMO games on the market. I'd believe that statement if the game wasn't doing well or wasn't really played. Another fallacy if you ask me, and with the introduction of these Companions, it seems like that the game really is being tailored more towards the "Solo player" than anything, so it wouldn't be too unrealistic of an idea to say that "Instances tailored to your experience" would be a reality. I mean, the technology is already there with how much phasing is being utilized.
"Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players."
Games I have played:
World of Warcraft, both Classic and Retail versions: Fairly popular, Classic arguably being appreciated a whole lot more, and that one is considered to be "Harder" in terms of having zones that are properly threatening to a degree. Certainly more threatening in comparison to ESO.
Guild wars 2: A game that frequently has events happen and enemies that put up a fight, especially in the max level zones.
And those two games remain popular and among the "Top MMO games of all time" lists, alongside ESO.
I'm only harsh about this game's overland difficulty because I am passionate about the game itself. I like it, I enjoy playing it. I'd enjoy it a lot more if i could play my characters at max level in the Overland without feeling like I am playing Oblivion with the difficulty slider being put all the way to the left.
I played F76 from the start, and I was a subscriber as well. I canceled when they decided to make all the zones equal difficulty. That increase in difficulty in the “easy zones” made most of my friends leave, so I did as well. F76 had a “dungeon” btw, that get got rid of, too difficult so no one used it.
There is no new content for F76 because it does not have enough income from so few players to justify that new content. The game is too difficult for most people so they leave. The same will happen here if you chase away the player base who are paying the bills.
And by the way I played this game as well when they had vet levels, been playing since beta, the vet levels were EMPTY of other players. Now with the more relaxed atmosphere the overland has tons of players.
Just a FYI, vet level monsters did not have special abilities they just hit harder and had more hp. Take off some gear and cp, and relive the vet level experience!
(As an aside you keep bringing up your girlfriend as determiner of difficulty and I don’t know why. We don’t know how good she is at video games. If overland is so easy for her, go do harder content together.) and I have friends who play this game too, they won’t go into dungeons even on normal, too hard. They put on whatever, they reach whatever goal they want, then move on to a new alt. They have multiple accounts as they refuse to delete old characters.
It is interesting to hear people call Vanilla wow difficult when the developers themselves marketed the game as a more casual version of Everquest. And doesn’t classic wow, and the modern version share a sub? So there is good value there.
And I remember they had to nerf all of the dungeons in cataclysm because they were too difficult...
LFR exists in WoW because the raids there were so difficult they were not pulling in enough players to justify the budget. So instead of having fewer raids, they made the raids easier.
They can’t do a tiered outdoor system here because they don’t want to split the population (for good reason) and the high cost of doing so.
1 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »But there is a normal version of every dlc dungeon, arena and even trial for casuals. Where is the veteran version of overland for more experienced players then?
Normal is just that... the baseline dungeons, arenas, trials and overland story line quests for the normal player. There is plenty of veteran content for those who want to push themselves beyond the normal game. But to expect them to use precious resources to create and maintain a second version of everything for a small minority of players who will most likely end up quitting anyway, is not reasonable.
[snip]
Veteran overland failed. They are not going to bring it back.
Well indeed, for 'normal' players there is
1) open world
2) normal dungeons
3) normal arenas
4) normal trials
For 'veteran' players there is
1) vet dlc dungeons
2) vet arenas
3) veteran trials
Mind elaborating a bit on that 'plenty of veteran content' there? It seems I'm missing something.
I'm also not sure what the forum accounts comment was about. My account is 7 years old, not sure how that counts as new lol.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 3:56PM0 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
Please don't patronize me by masking what is really wanted here. What is really wanted is to gate a segment of players from playing content. For reasons unknown, but not really. All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
[snip]
Second of all. Like it or not, this is an mmo. A certain segment of players is already gated from certain content. Like, trials. Also people who don't buy new chapters are gated from content in the chapters. And so on. Funny thing is, you seem to assume that I'm one of those evil players at the top of the leaderboards, who wants all the noobs to fail and delete the game. That could not be further from the truth. My main character runs a self made frost dps build. I get kicked from pugs because people don't trust frost dps builds. I do light attack animation cancelling when I run trials, but it causes a lot of pain in my wrists, so I avoid pretty much all content that requires it. For that reason I also run trials and vet as little as possible.
Third. Mmos are a journey for me. That's exactly why I want to enjoy overland. Overland is the journey, it contains most of the quests. The actually fun stuff for the casual players. The competition does not happen in overland, it happens in trials.
Fourth. Zos absolutely knows best about all those things. They have all the numbers. But I think we should both be aware that this game does not only live from casuals. Nor does it only live from the top players. Everyone is needed here, mmos don't survive long without one group or the other. The "game will lose customers if it caters to interests I do not support" is an empty threat. Always was, always will be. Every live service game gets hundreds of those threats with every single update. People going "mimimi I cancel sub now, good job devs, game will die now, blah blah." And nothing ever changes. Few people leave, few people join, few people cry and threaten and still buy the sub.
Once again though. I do not want to gate anyone from anything. I'd be fine with difficulty modes where nothing except the difficulty changes. i don't even want additional rewards. I only want to have more fun with the game.
I understand you want more fun, but changing all of the overland content to suit your definition of fun might not be what's best. As for patronizing when I read your post you began by saying noobs etc. Not everyone is a newb so If I misinterpreted your meaning I'm sorry for that. My point was fun is subjective and sometimes upsetting the apple cart has not so great consequences for a lot of people.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:03PM3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ZOS addressed the Dungeon issue for new players with companions.
Two friends with their companions can take on a normal dungeon. That is the intent behind their design.
—————————————————
An Idea
Story Bosses could be made into instanced content with normal & veteran settings.
They could also scale to how many players are in the fight.
So if you’re playing with friends it could be an even bigger challenge - instead of mind numbingly boring.Edited by Iccotak on April 10, 2021 3:46PM0 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Well indeed, for 'normal' players there is
1) open world
2) normal dungeons
3) normal arenas
4) normal trials
For 'veteran' players there is
1) vet dlc dungeons
2) vet arenas
3) veteran trials
Mind elaborating a bit on that 'plenty of veteran content' there? It seems I'm missing something.
I'm also not sure what the forum accounts comment was about. My account is 7 years old, not sure how that counts as new lol.
End game players have full access to the normal game that is there at a level for everyone to be able to complete. But the veteran content you list is not accessible to anyone but those who develop their character for it. So who is really being slighted here?
To clarify your other question, this thread was started by a brand new forum user who has 1 post in their history... this one... right after another thread on this exact same topic was locked.
PCNA1 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well one problem with that in my case I'm not a noob newb or new player. Been playing MMO's since they came out and before that text games and even games in BBS for those that don't know people ran bulletin board systems connected to the very young internet when there were no other places to except for a university computer because the internet was just a connection to a bunch of privately held computers that existed in very cool basements or cool rooms because they were large.
[snip] All these same arguments have been argued out in every forum in every game since it started to become popular. There is a certain segment of players who always want to be on top and have the coolest items, be the first to accomplish something even if they are coming into the game late. MMORPG are not a competition they are a journey. Keep on pushing though I guarantee there are more casual players here who do more than fight. This game is not just about fighting monsters, there are other paths why do you think crafting exists at all? Why do you think trading exists at all? Why does scrying exist?
I don't think this thread really gets it, and I don't care what someone's significant other thinks as a indicator of how people think about this game it means nothing. The bottom line is this Zos is doing what makes them the most money. Or it would have been changed by now. I think they realize who their player base is also.
I have played enough games too, to see this same arguments played out over and over and I have seen what happens to games that cater to this segment of people. They lose customers. And I would be one of those customers if it changes in this way.
[snip]
Second of all. Like it or not, this is an mmo. A certain segment of players is already gated from certain content. Like, trials. Also people who don't buy new chapters are gated from content in the chapters. And so on. Funny thing is, you seem to assume that I'm one of those evil players at the top of the leaderboards, who wants all the noobs to fail and delete the game. That could not be further from the truth. My main character runs a self made frost dps build. I get kicked from pugs because people don't trust frost dps builds. I do light attack animation cancelling when I run trials, but it causes a lot of pain in my wrists, so I avoid pretty much all content that requires it. For that reason I also run trials and vet as little as possible.
Third. Mmos are a journey for me. That's exactly why I want to enjoy overland. Overland is the journey, it contains most of the quests. The actually fun stuff for the casual players. The competition does not happen in overland, it happens in trials.
Fourth. Zos absolutely knows best about all those things. They have all the numbers. But I think we should both be aware that this game does not only live from casuals. Nor does it only live from the top players. Everyone is needed here, mmos don't survive long without one group or the other. The "game will lose customers if it caters to interests I do not support" is an empty threat. Always was, always will be. Every live service game gets hundreds of those threats with every single update. People going "mimimi I cancel sub now, good job devs, game will die now, blah blah." And nothing ever changes. Few people leave, few people join, few people cry and threaten and still buy the sub.
Once again though. I do not want to gate anyone from anything. I'd be fine with difficulty modes where nothing except the difficulty changes. i don't even want additional rewards. I only want to have more fun with the game.
I understand you want more fun, but changing all of the overland content to suit your definition of fun might not be what's best. As for patronizing when I read your post you began by saying noobs etc. Not everyone is a newb so If I misinterpreted your meaning I'm sorry for that. My point was fun is subjective and sometimes upsetting the apple cart has not so great consequences for a lot of people.
That’s why people often brought up a separate “Veteran instance” as a solution so then everyone wins - yet that is still shot down.Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on April 10, 2021 4:03PM0 -
ZOS_ConnorGmodGreetings all,
After review we have had to edit or remove several posts for Baiting. As the discussion in this thread has become more heated and more prone to escalating into arguments, we have closed the thread.
You are welcome to review the Community Rules here.5
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