Overland content and combat

Syxonas · April 2021

Hello guys

[snip] i know there is a lot of people that want engaging overland content in whatever form possible, i am so eager to see this happen and the only way to make it happen is to make it a trend, i am a frecuent ESO plus member, and i left the game time to time, because of the combat and the overland content is way too easy, i love how many activities it is possible to do, Zenimax had done a great job doing this, but lets be honest, some of us just want to get into de story, immerse ourselves and get rewarded for difficult quest and amazing story missions and having a more responsive combat that actually put a threat on us.

So what about your opinions over overland content and how can we make suggestions so we can be hear by Zenimax?

I please suggest for the ones that want to comment about this, to be respectful on each other, we are the same community and we all want a better game (for everyone).

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Actions]

kargen27 · April 2021

I wouldn't mind harder overland content if it were done in a way to not divide the population and not have an affect on players that do not want it. It shouldn't come with better rewards though because that would make players that don't like the harder content feel their decision is leaving them out. A tiered reward system is fine for trials and dungeons but would cause animosity for overland content.

I am also very sure ZoS has seen/heard those speaking up on the issue. They haven't given the answer you want but they have answered through inaction.

Sangwyne · April 2021

I think the best solution is to simply differentiate enemy types. Standard monsters should be plentiful but more boring, with few skills or stuns so that newer players can still tackle them and more experienced players can feel like a hero when they mow them down by the dozen, but Elite mobs should have more interesting mechanics and require a modicum of thought. Currently, there's basically no distinction between the two because Elite mobs simply don't have enough health or abilities to warrant their status as "Elite", and the same goes for most bosses in Overland content. When you encounter an enemy with a different-looking health bar, you should be able to actually tell from the mechanics too that it's a cut above the trash mobs and not just burst it down in two seconds flat before you can even see what it's called. Maybe increase the experience gain, reduce the number, or something, but make Elite mobs and Bosses in Overland actually deserve their title.

Kurat · April 2021

Not much can be done because playerbase has such a wide skill gap. Some players can basically 1 shot everything overland and some fight with their 5k dps, and I've even seen people die to overland mobs. I personally know some people who cant solo dolmens and many cant solo WBs.
I think its fine the way it is. It gives something for everyone to kill. If you find overland too easy then do other content that's more challenging. Try WBs and if they are too easy then try the one's in dlc zones. Go do dungeons, solo them if you like more challenge, try vet if normal too easy, do trials, arenas, go for achievements etc. Theres plenty of other things to do besides overland. You have the choice but making overland harder may take away the only content from some.

Amottica · April 2021

As a new player to ESO, a few days shy of two months, but not a new player to MMORPGs, I have found combat in ESO just fine. I think Kurat hit the nail on the head with their first sentence concerning the skill gap.

With any successful MMORPG I have played the overland and questing was mostly built so even the lesser skilled players can handle it. After all, they are trying to cast the widest net possible and these types of games tend to offer other content that is more challenging. So unless developers can find a way to allow players to flip a switch to make themselves weaker so fights are more challenging then I would not expect to see much in the way of changes.

Of course, games also tend to rebalance the entire game once a year when they raise the level cap and make everyone grind for new gear again. Does that happen in ESO?

phaneub17_ESO · April 2021

I prefer they bring back Cadwell's Silver and Gold, the way it used to be when it would give you the option of experiencing the other faction zones at a higher difficulty. The difference here is it would upgrade all base zones not just a single faction area, letting you experience it all over again. Silver is only available to characters who have reached level 50 with a difficulty meant for 2 players together, while Gold is for anyone 160cp or higher with a difficulty curve meant for 4 players. It doesn't mean you have to be in groups of 2 or 4 to access it, the content difficulty just reflects that as the recommendation, you can solo it if you want.

This would allow players who want a more difficult overland experience without causing trouble for those who don't, it also creates a degree of separation between players of different levels and skill set. It would only affect the 15 base game zones and their starter islands, all other content remains at base game difficulty. This also allows you to do the story quests a second and third time with different rewards.

Girl_Number8 · April 2021

To make overland more interesting ZOS should add a passive mode like other game companies have. That way the people that do not have it on I can and other players can kill and loot.

Now you won’t just be playing overland against adds but real people, not the same mechanics over and over. PvP combined with the adds and losing some of your equipped stuff, gold or XP should be exiting enough.

ThorianB · April 2021

Id like to see some random world events that make all the zones more chaotic and interesting. What if Oblivion portals started dropping in every zone with elite daedra flooding out. Everything in overland is so planned and routine, its a snoozefest. Nothing in ESO is unpredictable. Even the events are exactly the same every year with a very minor change.

Its like going to Las Vegas every year and seeing the same exact show in the exact same place. After you play for 5 years ESO sometimes feels a lot like bingo night. "B07....BEEE SEVEN"...." O62....OOOOO SIXTY TWO"

kargen27 · April 2021

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

To make overland more interesting ZOS should add a passive mode like other game companies have. That way the people that do not have it on I can and other players can kill and loot.

Now you won’t just be playing overland against adds but real people, not the same mechanics over and over. PvP combined with the adds and losing some of your equipped stuff, gold or XP should be exiting enough.

I still think this is a really bad idea. Not worth the effort to put in place. The zones are so wide open players wanting to PvP would rarely bump into each other. Players questing are not going to turn on PvP. In the end before they all faded away back to Cyrodiil a few players might hide around wayshrines hoping to gank somebody that forgot to toggle off PvP.

Imperial City provides that experience and most the year it is near empty.

Katahdin · April 2021

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

To make overland more interesting ZOS should add a passive mode like other game companies have. That way the people that do not have it on I can and other players can kill and loot.

Now you won’t just be playing overland against adds but real people, not the same mechanics over and over. PvP combined with the adds and losing some of your equipped stuff, gold or XP should be exiting enough.

Open world PVP in the regular game zones is never going to be a thing in this game.

IC has already proven that people losing anything they worked for on death to NPC or player is a non starter with the majority of the playerbase of this game.

Implementing this in the regular zones will be the fastest way to kill this game for good.

Zenzuki · April 2021

Overland is simply a space for leveling, traversing and questing.

With the "One Tamriel" approach, a player is going to "outlevel" everything pretty quickly.

And if they're actually "learning" to play their toon correctly... then even faster.

Every time this topic is brought up, it kinda goes no where because there doesn't seem to be a consensus on the best way ZOS should approach a "workable" solution.

Who knows....
Maybe their long term goal with introducing companions is to one day down the road, increase overland difficulty as it would be easier to do so for the larger playerbase, as ZOS could lean into the fact the weaker/newer players have an assist available.

The newer/weaker/squishier players would be able to take their companion along, assisting them with the harder overland content.

And...
The stronger players wouldn't need be told to self nerf, run it naked or whatnot, and could simply attempt to solo everything without the assistance of a companion.

Ultimately though, as mention in the first sentence... Overland is never going to be end game content hard, as it was never designed to be that in the first place. There's plenty of challenging content to be found... overland is not it.

BlueRaven · April 2021

Amottica wrote: »

Of course, games also tend to rebalance the entire game once a year when they raise the level cap and make everyone grind for new gear again. Does that happen in ESO?

The answer is sort of, but also no.

When they come out with a new dlc (which happens four times per year), many times it upsets the current meta. It does not always happen, but often it does.

Of course with the new dlc, there could be rebalances to armor, crit chance, or racial passives, (etc.) that also changes up the meta as well.

But when a new chapter comes out, many people can hold on to the gear they have just fine. But some people may want to grind for new gear, but only if they are chasing the current meta.

WiseSky · April 2021

[snip]

The only way for OverLand to be fun, is once you engage the Mobs, A player from Cyrodill gets Transported into the mob you attacked, and they gain control of that mob. They have a wide variety of skills they can use just like in PVP in Cyrodill against you, but you are not aware of that since they look like the mob....

Anything less then that will make the Overland Experience too easy.

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

Mayrael · April 2021

Katahdin wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe it's because people who would like such a change or the ability to play on a higher difficulty level are attacked? And we just want a reasonable discussion. The topic won't end by itself by closing threads, because the problem is real and appears quite often not only on the forums but also in the game.

A small digression in spoiler.

Yes it's true that there is more difficult content such as vet dungs and trials, the problem is that the majority of the game is Overland, new quests for chapters, the main storyline and thousands of other quests simply become unplayable.

All of us started at some point, all of us struggled with new challenges and all of us managed. I remember when I first started ESO, nothing made me happier than a new skill that made my character stronger or the small improvements I made every day. The first time I dared to attack a world boss on my own and the beating I took. I used to love PvE in ESO more than anything else. I had 6 characters before the introduction of champion points and on all of them quest after quest I passed all zones. And now? I don't even bother to look at the new chapters.

.

Here is a proposal to solve the problem.

So as not to prolong, here are some solutions other than the ones proposed so far.

We increase the overall difficulty of overland, we don't create vet zones and we introduce a new optional buff (not like level scaling which is mandatory). New buff is strong enough that players who use it will not feel any difference in strength of overland opponents. This solution does not require instantiation and does not require re-logging. You can use and remove the buff at any time. Do you feel that your opponents are too much of a challenge for you? Turn on the buff and the problem is over.

Advantages of the solution.
1. no instantiation.
2. possibility to play together even in the same group of players expecting a challenge and those who just want to go through the content without any problems.
3. if new players feel bored they can try the challenge at any time without worrying about losing quest progression etc.

To be considered is whether or not we want to add to the buff, penalty to XP and gold for killing enemies. Before you look at it from the perspective of "Definitely not because it forces you not to use the buff" consider the implications of such an approach. The lack of a penalty to XP and gold means that veterans can turn on the buff and grind on spots with even greater ease, increasing their advantage.

The penalty to XP and Gold could only apply from (just a suggestion) 600CP and increase as new CPs are gained. This way it is the veterans who are more encouraged not to use the buff while new players can play unchanged without worrying about anything. But as I said, this is only a proposal and it would be up for debate whether such a debuff is needed at all.

zvavi · April 2021

Mayrael wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe it's because people who would like such a change or the ability to play on a higher difficulty level are attacked? And we just want a reasonable discussion. The topic won't end by itself by closing threads, because the problem is real and appears quite often not only on the forums but also in the game.

A small digression in spoiler.
Yes it's true that there is more difficult content such as vet dungs and trials, the problem is that the majority of the game is Overland, new quests for chapters, the main storyline and thousands of other quests simply become unplayable.

All of us started at some point, all of us struggled with new challenges and all of us managed. I remember when I first started ESO, nothing made me happier than a new skill that made my character stronger or the small improvements I made every day. The first time I dared to attack a world boss on my own and the beating I took. I used to love PvE in ESO more than anything else. I had 6 characters before the introduction of champion points and on all of them quest after quest I passed all zones. And now? I don't even bother to look at the new chapters.
.

Here is a proposal to solve the problem.

So as not to prolong, here are some solutions other than the ones proposed so far.

We increase the overall difficulty of overland, we don't create vet zones and we introduce a new optional buff (not like level scaling which is mandatory). New buff is strong enough that players who use it will not feel any difference in strength of overland opponents. This solution does not require instantiation and does not require re-logging. You can use and remove the buff at any time. Do you feel that your opponents are too much of a challenge for you? Turn on the buff and the problem is over.

Advantages of the solution.
1. no instantiation.
2. possibility to play together even in the same group of players expecting a challenge and those who just want to go through the content without any problems.
3. if new players feel bored they can try the challenge at any time without worrying about losing quest progression etc.

To be considered is whether or not we want to add to the buff, penalty to XP and gold for killing enemies. Before you look at it from the perspective of "Definitely not because it forces you not to use the buff" consider the implications of such an approach. The lack of a penalty to XP and gold means that veterans can turn on the buff and grind on spots with even greater ease, increasing their advantage.

The penalty to XP and Gold could only apply from (just a suggestion) 600CP and increase as new CPs are gained. This way it is the veterans who are more encouraged not to use the buff while new players can play unchanged without worrying about anything. But as I said, this is only a proposal and it would be up for debate whether such a debuff is needed at all.

You could go about it the other way around, introduce a debuff that makes you weaker, but enemies drop more XP and gold, even better, put it as 3 momentos for varied difficulty levels, and scale your rewards to the weakest buff in combat (so people won't abuse)

Aardappelboom · April 2021

First off, I have seen many valid arguments for not making it more difficult but I still disagree, ESO is getting to a state where the game focuses on new story content, a lot of people are here because it's a TES game, not an mmorpg perse, at the same time, while stories keep me playing, they do feel more boring as I progress. Also, there is always a solution to these problems and keep in mind that for people playing story content it's not really valid to point them to WB or Dungeons, it won't still the hunger for challenging story content.

I've played for a year now and when I got to craglorn, after silver and gold, I had a lot of fun with the quests there, even the sidequests. Everything after that has some great storytelling but it's not very engaging if you just kill every important NPC in 2/3 hits.

On to a solution: they could introduce a tiered difficulty increase based on how you're doing. (like in Outriders by the way) apply a buff and keep track of how you're performing (dying, number of hits,...) to either bumb it up or lower it down. "bumping it up" could mean a couple of things obviously, more hits to kill or more dmg are just a few of the options. I think however that the use of skills and stuns (that actively have to be blocked or interupted to survive) would be better. Allow every player to pick a lower tier at all times and make the higher tiers unlockable.

The baseline has been set with the "One Tamriel" update, it's honestly just a more advanced way to implement it and expand on it.

I get that there are challenges when grouping in this kind of situation, but there are always ways to cope with this mechanic when grouped as in the difficulty could meet in the middle or scale based on an avarage from the group members, or let the group leader pick the tier they want to use.

Finally, loot could increase based on the tier you're in, they could limit it to just "more gold" or expand on it and have specific gear only for higher tiered overland content.

In any case, whether or not it's a good idea, I really think ZOS should look at having a way to increase difficulty and provide a fun experience for everyone.

Parasaurolophus · April 2021

You could go about it the other way around, introduce a debuff that makes you weaker, but enemies drop more XP and gold, even better, put it as 3 momentos for varied difficulty levels, and scale your rewards to the weakest buff in combat (so people won't abuse)

You use the debuff, but your mate does not. You kill one mob. You deal less damage to the mob than your friend because only under the debuff. As a result, you get more experience and more valuable loot. Your mate is not.
Or another option. You go under the buff to kill the world boss, which is killed by the zerg without a debuff.
In general, the idea of a debuff is also bad in that it opens up many ways for game abuse.

Mayrael · April 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe it's because people who would like such a change or the ability to play on a higher difficulty level are attacked? And we just want a reasonable discussion. The topic won't end by itself by closing threads, because the problem is real and appears quite often not only on the forums but also in the game.

A small digression in spoiler.
Yes it's true that there is more difficult content such as vet dungs and trials, the problem is that the majority of the game is Overland, new quests for chapters, the main storyline and thousands of other quests simply become unplayable.

All of us started at some point, all of us struggled with new challenges and all of us managed. I remember when I first started ESO, nothing made me happier than a new skill that made my character stronger or the small improvements I made every day. The first time I dared to attack a world boss on my own and the beating I took. I used to love PvE in ESO more than anything else. I had 6 characters before the introduction of champion points and on all of them quest after quest I passed all zones. And now? I don't even bother to look at the new chapters.
.

Here is a proposal to solve the problem.

So as not to prolong, here are some solutions other than the ones proposed so far.

We increase the overall difficulty of overland, we don't create vet zones and we introduce a new optional buff (not like level scaling which is mandatory). New buff is strong enough that players who use it will not feel any difference in strength of overland opponents. This solution does not require instantiation and does not require re-logging. You can use and remove the buff at any time. Do you feel that your opponents are too much of a challenge for you? Turn on the buff and the problem is over.

Advantages of the solution.
1. no instantiation.
2. possibility to play together even in the same group of players expecting a challenge and those who just want to go through the content without any problems.
3. if new players feel bored they can try the challenge at any time without worrying about losing quest progression etc.

To be considered is whether or not we want to add to the buff, penalty to XP and gold for killing enemies. Before you look at it from the perspective of "Definitely not because it forces you not to use the buff" consider the implications of such an approach. The lack of a penalty to XP and gold means that veterans can turn on the buff and grind on spots with even greater ease, increasing their advantage.

The penalty to XP and Gold could only apply from (just a suggestion) 600CP and increase as new CPs are gained. This way it is the veterans who are more encouraged not to use the buff while new players can play unchanged without worrying about anything. But as I said, this is only a proposal and it would be up for debate whether such a debuff is needed at all.

You could go about it the other way around, introduce a debuff that makes you weaker, but enemies drop more XP and gold, even better, put it as 3 momentos for varied difficulty levels, and scale your rewards to the weakest buff in combat (so people won't abuse)

Yes but making enemies stronger is not only about adding X hp and damage to their toolkit. It's about better and faster combat. If they would buff our enemies both their stats and tacitcs, strong buff would help to deal with both of those (more resist if you fail to dodge incoming shot etc.) while debuff makes you only weaker which does nothing as I already can do this but without reward and its not about reward afterall, also debuff doesn't change enemies AI. Overland content with better tactics would also help new players to learn advanced combat mechanics like roll dodge, bash, movement etc. etc. It wouldn't be mandatory thanks to buff but they could learn this by the way, just like that.

Iccotak · April 2021

[snip]

Well to those asking:
- “Why not use a de-buff?”
- “I just started and it’s fine, why change?”
- “Don’t you guys have WBs, Dungeons, & Trials?”

I recommend reading through what people have said in another thread here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/566935/the-real-problem-with-combat-in-overland/p1

I will state my opinion here though:

Iccotak wrote: »

The only reason I am playing the chapter this year because it is a heavily Argonian themed zone.

For me my primary issue is just how lackluster Overland and main story encounters are. Don’t get me wrong they’re very visually appealing it and it has decent writing, but the gameplay is so lackluster that it undermines the writing and takes me out of the experience.

The only places to find engaging gameplay are endgame, which I have to get a group together for, and PVP.

The rest of it feels more like a walking simulator, which doesn’t make it worth very much to me - in my opinion.
I would like to be able to enjoy the solo questing experience.

However, I cannot get excited for a story that I know is going to be a breeze to beat. Even if I do Nerf myself, that just makes it longer & tedious - not actually fun

———————————————————
Also what someone else said previously

Player Feedback after 4 months of playing
https://youtu.be/Vf-X7Deb--I

Around 8:25
“I feel that the outdoor world is a bit too easy about 90% of the time and way too tedious the other 10%.
What I mean is the majority of the mobs you’re gonna fight in this game in the outside world are pathetically simple to slaughter.

You can cut them down by the dozens no problem but then you’ll encounter bigger NPCs every so often that take a little bit of time to kill because they have these big large health pools.

Now this wouldn’t be a big deal but the “Big NPCs” usually don’t have any mechanics aside from the basic ones that pretty much all NPCs have.

A forward cone attack, a leap-over-strike, and so on. That means you end up fighting tougher regular NPCs with a larger health pool, it just takes a while to kill them and just slows things down. I don’t think that’s fun.

If you’re gonna have tougher NPCs in the open world, you gotta make them Tougher - more mechanics, more ways that they can kill you, and so on and so forth.”

[Edited for Discussion of Moderation Action]

HalfRain216 · April 2021

Why not just make a couple new areas with extremely hard content and only daily quests.
Players with low skill level are not missing out on story line quests and high skilled players have a place in overland with hard content.
A few dolmens with a lot higher health bosses.
WB that are impossible to take down solo.
Plus I think the world events is a good idea. Make the game seem active and like it is changing like the real world advancing through time.
Daedra randomly attacks auridon and all the players there have to defend it. Random things like that not to often twice a day on the weekend or something. The overland world needs progression and a overall story that changes and dictates different world events to come.

Kurat · April 2021

Overland mobs are nuisance already, no need to buff them. I don't mean that they are difficult to kill, everything dies in 2 sec. What I mean is that they're everywhere and as you wonder around you often aggro something. Then you gotta kill them before you can interact with anything. Now imagine that they had 10 times more hp and they can kill you easily. You trying to do surveys, pick up nodes or shards. You accidentally aggroed something and have to fight for several minutes just so you can pick up that corn flower lmao. Everything would become tedious fast.

Iccotak · April 2021

What @VaranisArano said a while ago that is still relevant.

Remember Doshia?

When I see new players coming to the forums with issues in overland content, its usually for quest bosses. K'Tora from Summerset was a big recent offender.

So what's the problem?
Usually its some combination of the following:
1. ESO doesn't really teach that hybrids or tanky builds aren't very effective compared to going all magicka or all stamina.

2. ESO isn't very effective at teaching new players to do DPS rotations over a sustained fight. Just like Doshia was the first boss to teach older players they needed AOEs, some of those bosses are the first real "mechanics check" that new players experience. Essentially, its the first time they really have to learn how to fight or sustain even a short rotation.

3. ESO's battle leveling is prone to creating unexpected problems for new players who don't know how it works. If you don't keep your weapons and gear up to par, its very easy to wind up weak and squishy at the wrong moment.

Most players who struggle, do so because they don't understand the basic "meta" of ESO Leveling or ESO combat. They try to "play they way they want" only to hit bosses that are slightly more challenging and then realize (as I once did) that their build just isn't very effective.

Given some pointers about to how build effectively for ESO, they do just fine.

To be clear, I think the answer is that ESO has to do a better job of teaching new players - particularly when it comes to how to DPS.

ESO does a poor job teaching the player how to properly play the game so -instead of making the content to encourage the player to learn - it lowers the standards across the board to a mediocre level of skill.

This contributes to the wide Skill Gap between those who only do Overland and those who dabble or more regularly play other areas of the game, like group content & PvP.

The game is designed to encourage players to progress to Dungeons & Trials but it doesn’t actually teach how to play the game before that.

Alpharos7 · April 2021

Personally, I'd like to see more depth in the overland content. Take the bandits in TES V for example, at any level you could encounter them at varying difficulties, which added significant challenge for lower levelled players. We have different types of enemies in ESO, but if ZOS updated them so each was a varying level of difficulty than it would add much more challenge. Additionally, I also think some overland enemies like trolls and bears should be much more difficult to kill.

I'd also like to see delve bosses made harder - they don't need to be anywhere as hard as world bosses, but they need to be more difficult for a solo player to kill. In most delves they are easier than the mobs because of the all the cc's that the latter utilise. This isn't right.

ZOS needs to be brave, and not worry about players dying to overland content. I fully agree that overland content needs to be doable by a level 1 with no champion points but it needs to teach players how to play the game and it needs to have consequences if you don't know how to. At the moment you could blow on your controller/ keyboard and kill overland enemies.

That being said, One Tamriel made a huge improvement to ESO, and I don't want to go back to a point where a skeever in one zone was more dangerous than a troll in another.

Magdalina · April 2021

Kurat wrote: »

Not much can be done because playerbase has such a wide skill gap. Some players can basically 1 shot everything overland and some fight with their 5k dps, and I've even seen people die to overland mobs. I personally know some people who cant solo dolmens and many cant solo WBs.
I think its fine the way it is. It gives something for everyone to kill. If you find overland too easy then do other content that's more challenging. Try WBs and if they are too easy then try the one's in dlc zones. Go do dungeons, solo them if you like more challenge, try vet if normal too easy, do trials, arenas, go for achievements etc. Theres plenty of other things to do besides overland. You have the choice but making overland harder may take away the only content from some.

Actually, a LOT can be done ABOUT the playerbase having such a wide skill gap. The single main reason playerbase has such a wide skill gap at all is because overland, the content you see first as you start the game, and (unless you specifically search for other actitivities, but that can be hard at lower levels) the content you do the most (at least until some point, anyway), is so damn easy it teaches you nothing.

I remember the days of original ESO and vet zones where running into 3 enemies (non-elite, just standard trash ones) was actually a challenge. I remember spending hours on main storyline quests. Yes, I was also a much less experienced and good player then than I am now, but that's the point - it taught me things. I'm not even talking about 100k dps, I'm talking about simple things such as block, dodge, bash, don't stand in red, use food, use potions, use damage shields. It's astonishing just how many players have no idea about that these days. They end up in a vet dungeon and you even tell them what to do to avoid dying - but they just die to same thing over and over and over again. Standing in red. Not interrupting. Not blocking. Not dodging. Not using damage shields (a lot of inexperienced magicka players actually don't seem to know what a damage shield IS! Back in the day, if you didn't know what a damage shield was as a magicka build, you basically didn't make it past vet 1 Glenumbra lol).

It's ironic that there're people praising overland for 'accessible to everyone with no toxic players interruption' but overland IS probably the biggest issue of the game and the single biggest cause of toxicity in harder content. It teaches new players that standing in red, ignoring mechs, running no build/set/anything and just spamming light attacks is a perfectly valid gamestyle for all of the game, it keeps teaching this to them for however long they like, not even giving any hints otherwise, then they end up in a vet (better yet, vet dlc) dungeon with their 15k health, no full sets, no potions, no food build that's using a mix of magicka and stam abilities, spend the first few fights dead contributing nothing, get kicked and are convinced ESO vet group play is some op hard l33t content dominated by toxic people kicking everyone they don't like. Meanwhile, 'toxic' people are stuck there with players absolutely unable to pull their weight and often not even willing to listen to advices as they've been playing like this for months and been just fine. This precious 'casual-friendly' overland IS what ends up ruining group content for all of us (that on top of actually ruining single-player content for those of us enjoying challenge).

etchedpixels · April 2021

Aardappelboom wrote: »

In any case, whether or not it's a good idea, I really think ZOS should look at having a way to increase difficulty and provide a fun experience for everyone.

Take all your armour off and/or use non-optimal weapons and skills. Zenimax don't have to do this for you.

It's also very hard to balance game scaling - my necrotank has 80K health and does little damage, my stamplar does 30-40K on real world targets but ends up a bit dead rather easily. How do you make scaling work for both cases let alone do it when grouped.

The current scaling system doesn't work that well either. It's certainly fit for purpose in letting newer players wander the world and heroically save bits of it in any order, but once you've actually mastered the skills and buffs properly you can massacre overland content on almost any level toon and certainly by level 20 or so solo dolmens and the like.

etchedpixels · April 2021

HalfRain216 wrote: »

Why not just make a couple new areas with extremely hard content and only daily quests.

It was called Craglorn and didn't work out. The hard bits are nowdays labelled 'group content' but mostly soloable.

Iccotak wrote: »

ESO does a poor job teaching the player how to properly play the game so -instead of making the content to encourage the player to learn - it lowers the standards across the board to a mediocre level of skill.

This contributes to the wide Skill Gap between those who only do Overland and those who dabble or more regularly play other areas of the game, like group content & PvP.

The game is designed to encourage players to progress to Dungeons & Trials but it doesn’t actually teach how to play the game before that.

A lot of people just want to play hero through the storylines and enjoy the game world, and most players are casual players who don't want to spend hours watching videos and bashing a dummy mindlessly to join an elite trial guild.

There's another problem too. The one you see with some of the more basic vet dungeons. Simply giving everything more health doesn't make the content more challenging merely more tedious. If you wanted a proper harder zone then you'd need to give the monster AI a significant boost so that sabre cats pack hunted, bandits protected their healer, dodge rolled around and used cc and PvP like attack patterns and more magic (so the mini-boss mage is actually using lightning form, dropping atronarchs on you and the like)

At that point it's basically PvP in disguise.

Alurria · April 2021

Personally I don't want to be taught how to play properly by some players definition of how to play a game. I don't want a player who thinks they are superior to tell me how to spend my time. That player dictating who the lowest common denominator is doesn't have the whole player base in mind when they say things like that. The optimal words here are play and game not work. Anyone who says the mechanics of fight are too basic is making a stretch judgment. I don't want to spend hours researching the mechanics of a fight.

At 550 cp I still can die in overland, yes it does happen. Last night for one on a geyser I had no idea a boss was throwing a total wave so wasn't prepared. That's the type of learning I want to do. Overland is fine, overland is designed for many other activities besides fighting, farming, scrying, questing for special items, exploring and fishing. I don't want every monster I run across to be a challenge. Do you know how many times I died to Doshia before they changed it or the guy you fight with queen aeyrinna? The changes that were made were made for reasons.

Zos isn't going to change overland to suit you or me. If and that's a big if they do change anything it will be for the benefit of the majority player base as a whole and I have to say the people in this thread are a small number. I am not interested in your counter arguments either because if you were not here when the forums blew up about craglorn maybe you would understand. Or the fact that I personally know people who quit playing then ask yourself why would they change it? Because that system was bad for player retention. It all comes down to making money and I think the majority of the players are happy with overland. But yeah maybe we need another thread on this subject.

CP5 · April 2021

etchedpixels wrote: »

HalfRain216 wrote: »

Why not just make a couple new areas with extremely hard content and only daily quests.

It was called Craglorn and didn't work out. The hard bits are nowdays labelled 'group content' but mostly soloable.

Iccotak wrote: »

ESO does a poor job teaching the player how to properly play the game so -instead of making the content to encourage the player to learn - it lowers the standards across the board to a mediocre level of skill.

This contributes to the wide Skill Gap between those who only do Overland and those who dabble or more regularly play other areas of the game, like group content & PvP.

The game is designed to encourage players to progress to Dungeons & Trials but it doesn’t actually teach how to play the game before that.

A lot of people just want to play hero through the storylines and enjoy the game world, and most players are casual players who don't want to spend hours watching videos and bashing a dummy mindlessly to join an elite trial guild.

There's another problem too. The one you see with some of the more basic vet dungeons. Simply giving everything more health doesn't make the content more challenging merely more tedious. If you wanted a proper harder zone then you'd need to give the monster AI a significant boost so that sabre cats pack hunted, bandits protected their healer, dodge rolled around and used cc and PvP like attack patterns and more magic (so the mini-boss mage is actually using lightning form, dropping atronarchs on you and the like)

At that point it's basically PvP in disguise.

Old craglorn's flaw was all it did was spam mobs with dull AI, it did nothing to address the issues that would need to be fixed and is nothing like what people want now. The AI currently is so slow that most mobs stand still doing nothing most fights, giving them more abilities and more chances to use them, not 'pvp in disguise' but 'AI's actually bothering to stay alive'. Having npc healers that actually put out enough healing to be made a priority, mages that don't spend the whole fight channeling some worthless buff(?) and tanks that actually use more than just talons once in a blue moon to protect their allies. That would be the key thing, giving the enemies enough abilities and conditions to use them in that fights actually are engaging rather than mind-numbing.

To be fair, the duo-boss fight in Dragonstar arena is among my favorite boss fights in the game as you fight a Sorcerer mage and Templar tank, not because they fight like pvp'ers but because they use a wide range of skills and each skill is meaningful. Then on the other side of the spectrum you have scamps who will channel a 2 inch wide fire aoe for half the fight resulting in them being nothing but scenery.

mocap · April 2021

since we have Cyro test for any reason, why not to do a test for overland?

Make debuff scroll/food/whatever with variation of Battle spirit for overland for 1 month. Like +25%/+50%/+75% incoming damage from mobs, and reduce player damage for some % as well.

Players like - keep it
Players dislike - throw it

BlueRaven · April 2021

We have a mmo with a harder overland on the market right now, it’s called Fallout 76.

It had a dedicated fan base, like Elder Scrolls. And it has a much harder overland then ESO.
Just to walk down a road, players need a proper build. World events can one shot players and getting killed has consequences.

The result? F76 has roughly 1/3 of the player base eso has (go check the steam charts yourself).

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

https://steamcharts.com/app/1151340

Casual players won’t “learn to play” with a more difficult overland, they will just leave.

ESO does not exist in a vacuum, there are other games on the market that players will gravitate to if they are having trouble here.

And eso does not have a sufficient population to break up the world into casual and an abstract concept of vet levels. (A vet level based on whose experience? Your personal expertise? Or that player who is way better then you? Or maybe that other player who is way worse? How does zos determine the “right” difficulty?)

Go look at the various mmos on the market, then take a real look at the various difficulty ratings each has, and then look at the popularity of each one. High difficulty gets a lot of YouTube clicks by the curious, but few actual players.

RedMuse · April 2021

Mayrael wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

Maybe it's because people who would like such a change or the ability to play on a higher difficulty level are attacked? And we just want a reasonable discussion. The topic won't end by itself by closing threads, because the problem is real and appears quite often not only on the forums but also in the game.

A small digression in spoiler.
Yes it's true that there is more difficult content such as vet dungs and trials, the problem is that the majority of the game is Overland, new quests for chapters, the main storyline and thousands of other quests simply become unplayable.

All of us started at some point, all of us struggled with new challenges and all of us managed. I remember when I first started ESO, nothing made me happier than a new skill that made my character stronger or the small improvements I made every day. The first time I dared to attack a world boss on my own and the beating I took. I used to love PvE in ESO more than anything else. I had 6 characters before the introduction of champion points and on all of them quest after quest I passed all zones. And now? I don't even bother to look at the new chapters.
.

Here is a proposal to solve the problem.

So as not to prolong, here are some solutions other than the ones proposed so far.

We increase the overall difficulty of overland, we don't create vet zones and we introduce a new optional buff (not like level scaling which is mandatory). New buff is strong enough that players who use it will not feel any difference in strength of overland opponents. This solution does not require instantiation and does not require re-logging. You can use and remove the buff at any time. Do you feel that your opponents are too much of a challenge for you? Turn on the buff and the problem is over.

Advantages of the solution.
1. no instantiation.
2. possibility to play together even in the same group of players expecting a challenge and those who just want to go through the content without any problems.
3. if new players feel bored they can try the challenge at any time without worrying about losing quest progression etc.

To be considered is whether or not we want to add to the buff, penalty to XP and gold for killing enemies. Before you look at it from the perspective of "Definitely not because it forces you not to use the buff" consider the implications of such an approach. The lack of a penalty to XP and gold means that veterans can turn on the buff and grind on spots with even greater ease, increasing their advantage.

The penalty to XP and Gold could only apply from (just a suggestion) 600CP and increase as new CPs are gained. This way it is the veterans who are more encouraged not to use the buff while new players can play unchanged without worrying about anything. But as I said, this is only a proposal and it would be up for debate whether such a debuff is needed at all.

How is this any different than introducing a debuff that people who want harder battles can use? All it does is change which group is forced to use a thing, but forces the change on those who do not WANT a change rather than those who demand things be changed to please them.