The real problem with combat in Overland

Iccotak

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Seraphayel

The most challenging things in overland combat are:

- the overwhelming amount of annoying CC that every enemy seems to have and use abundantly

- the eternally long chasing after you, keeping you in combat and often you have to hit them or they have to hit you before they reset

- enemies spreading all around you, making it hard to use AoE effectively

There’s nothing compelling or difficult in overland combat. Due to the three things mentioned above it’s just incredibly tedious and more annoying than fun.

Iccotak

@Seraphayel
Annoying & Tedious are the perfect words to describe the majority of Overland combat

Parasaurolophus

I can imagine how this year I will be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon in two strikes ... And I feel scared for the game.

BlueRaven

You need to keep in mind any enemy you engage in during overland content, could also be engaged by a level two or three player with no cp.

What feels tedious to your over powered character with a monster helm and two 5 piece armor sets, may feel overwhelming to a player with a mixture of white and green mismatched armor.

If over land is too easy, you can always make it more difficult on yourself by lowering the power level on your character.
New low level characters with no cp have little means to power up

Seraphayel

BlueRaven wrote: »

You need to keep in mind any enemy you engage in during overland content, could also be engaged by a level two or three player with no cp.

A level 2/3 player with no CP is not weaker than a level 30 or level 49 player due to the weird scaling. You're gradually getting weaker and the weakest is the point when you reach max level.

BlueRaven

Seraphayel wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You need to keep in mind any enemy you engage in during overland content, could also be engaged by a level two or three player with no cp.

A level 2/3 player with no CP is not weaker than a level 30 or level 49 player due to the weird scaling. You're gradually getting weaker and the weakest is the point when you reach max level.

Yes. But they still have no cp AND they won’t have proc sets or even set bonuses compared to a maxed out vet dungeon ready player. There is still a power difference. Ask any low level no cp player going into a normal (full cp) cyrodiil.

The point is overland is made for inexperienced low level players. Not people who can solo dungeons.

Veinblood1965

It would help if there were wandering boss like mobs imo. Or packs of higher level mobs, I think it would make it engaging for newbies also it would put some scare into them.

BlueRaven

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

It would help if there were wandering boss like mobs imo. Or packs of higher level mobs, I think it would make it engaging for newbies also it would put some scare into them.

World bosses say hello.

Alurria

Deleted

danno8

This is the unfortunate side effect of One Tamriel.

It allows for new players to go anywhere and do anything, which is great but also hollows out the excitement and challenge of any future overland content for any non-new player.

ESO is the only MMO I play where new Chapters or DLC aren't intriguing for overland content, since I know I will be able to mow through every bad guy without having to pay attention.

Jeffrey530

BrownChicken wrote: »

I can imagine how this year I will be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon in two strikes ... And I feel scared for the game.

Kaalgrontiid boss of elsweyr has 1.7 mil health. I see you must be doing more than 8mil dps to kill bosses in 2 strikes.

mocap

companion system will fix that

hands0medevil

After some early levels or for someone who has more than casual experience in gaming there is absolutely no combat in overland, because it's too easy. It's simply boring. You can even solo WBs or rush through public dungs like it's some starting area in typical korean mmo. We have the same issue with new questlines with every chapter. If you play new chapter's storyline with your main, well developed character, it's absurdly easy, it's boring and totally not challenging. It's the price we pay for One Tamriel and the ability to play any content at any level. I personally don't like it, I'm more used to mmos with zones with different levels of difficulty. However I accept it and the current state of overlands can stay this way as long as players and ZoS stop nerfing other, more challenging content - cyrodill, IC, dungeons, trials etc.

Kiralyn2000

Overland will never have the "mechanics" of dungeons/etc. That's just a basic fact of MMOs.

Just the fact that they are scattered across an open area (rather than planned groups of mobs placed along a set of corridors & rooms as 'designed' encounters), and might be engaged by various people from various directions - or might be engaged by a single, unleveled character with 5% of their class & gear skills yet - makes it irrational to expect that.

hands0medevil wrote: »

After some early levels or for someone who has more than casual experience in gaming there is absolutely no combat in overland, because it's to easy. It's simply boring. You can even solo WBs or rush through public dungs

I think you'd be surprised at the general level of skill out there. Just because you and your friends can do that, doesn't mean everyone can.

(I certainly can't solo most WBs on most of my characters. And I've been playing videogames since 1970, and MMOs since vanilla WoW. I can't "rush" public dungeon bosses, either. I'm not constantly optimising my builds, I haven't read guides, I can't weave/animation cancel, and pretty much all my characters are single bar. I've no idea what my DPS is, the thought of spending 10+ minutes 'rotating' at one of those target dummies just seems mind-numbing beyond words. Don't worry, I don't do dungeons. You won't have me inflicted on you.)

Iccotak

BlueRaven wrote: »

You need to keep in mind any enemy you engage in during overland content, could also be engaged by a level two or three player with no cp.

What feels tedious to your over powered character with a monster helm and two 5 piece armor sets, may feel overwhelming to a player with a mixture of white and green mismatched armor.

If over land is too easy, you can always make it more difficult on yourself by lowering the power level on your character.
New low level characters with no cp have little means to power up

It doesn’t solve the problem and it never has. It’s honestly annoying at this point whenever it’s this is put out as a legitimate solution.

Numerous people across numerous threads have already pointed out why it’s not an effective solution.

After some early levels or for someone who has more than casual experience in gaming there is absolutely no combat in overland, because it's to easy. It's simply boring.

You can even solo WBs or rush through public dungs like it's some staring area in typical korean mmo. We have the same issue with new questlines with every chapter.

If you play new chapter's storyline with your main, well developed character, it's absurdly easy, it's boring and totally not challenging.

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

BrownChicken wrote: »

I can imagine how this year I will be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon in two strikes ... And I feel scared for the game.

Kaalgrontiid boss of elsweyr has 1.7 mil health. I see you must be doing more than 8mil dps to kill bosses in 2 strikes.

Kaalgrontiid has a lot of health but his fight is so tedious & boring.
It was a serious letdown.

Iccotak

Alurria wrote: »

Dead horses have to be beaten

It’s still a relevant topic. It’s a dead horse that haunts the game

Alurria

So everything must change because it's boring for a few people? You can't make any judgements on how others feel or if content is boring based on a few forum threads by people who may not even play this game but would rather come to the forums to stir things up.

DigiAngel

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

GreenhaloX

3 seconds execution of a heavy attack is a really big issue! Well, there are also those bar swapping delays, lagging and skills delay or misfiring too; which, oftentimes, make combat in ESO so clunky and sluggish. Ever play Tera? Now there are some smooth combat actions going on!

CP5

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging. Take the enemies with only 1 weapon for example, their sole purpose in existence is to maybe hit you with the pommel of their sword, then back step for a year before contemplating how to throw a knife for another year before doing a lick of damage and re-engaging. Doesn't matter if I kill all of their friends and stand in their face ready to bash them before they get their attack off or let them do it ten times over, it isn't any more interesting.

Rukia541

Why you would want more difficult overland, that would just make it tedious . I'm pretty sure its not intended to be difficult. I am fine with faceroll open world and challenging instances. Plus, think about new players, its not so easy for them without CP and broken gear.

Kiralyn2000

CP5 wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging.

I'm reasonably certain that Overland in MMOs isn't meant to be "engaging" to pro players. It certainly wasn't in any of the other MMOs I played.

Iccotak

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging.

I'm reasonably certain that Overland in MMOs isn't meant to be "engaging" to pro players. It certainly wasn't in any of the other MMOs I played.

This is an mmo with a heavy emphasis on action and moving around.
It’s not like most mmos combat systems.

Having enemies be able to do about as much as a WoW enemy unit, and just as slow, just doesn’t fit with the combat of ESO

Rukia541

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging.

I'm reasonably certain that Overland in MMOs isn't meant to be "engaging" to pro players. It certainly wasn't in any of the other MMOs I played.

GW2 tried it with heart of thorns xpac, guess what.. it got nerfed into oblivion and the complaints on forums were in the zillions pre-nerf. No one really wants challenging open world, it just makes it a nightmare to traverse when any random mob can clap you after CC chaining your ass. Challenge belongs in instances mostly, with the occasional world boss which I am fine with being more difficult as well. I think ESO puts challenging content in all the right places, better than other MMOs.

Sometimes you get off work and want to mindlessly play the game not be challenged 24/7, that is just anti-fun.

Iccotak

Alurria wrote: »

So everything must change because it's boring for a few people? You can't make any judgements on how others feel or if content is boring based on a few forum threads by people who may not even play this game but would rather come to the forums to stir things up.

I haven’t proposed any solution.

I pointed out the specific issue that the reason Overland is boring is because it doesn’t make you think and thus isn’t engaging.
Even without CP and using low tier gear.

People often say that the stats just need to be buffed or the player de-buffed —- but the problem is that the enemies are incapable, not that they don’t hit hard enough.
They have fine stats, they just don’t have any engaging mechanics.

(Edit: also I base my opinions from my experience and observations from playing the game. The quote in the OP happens to be a sentiment that I agree with, I just made sure to credit the person that I’m quoting)

At a certain point questing can just get boring because all the enemies are so consistently un-engaging. Which is a shame because the writing is often pretty good

Overland doesn’t encourage the player to get better.

The real progression we see in design is through the dungeons which do get progressively harder.

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

No it’s not, I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50.
CP is not the problem. It never was

phaneub17_ESO

I wouldn't mind a year after the Companions update, they do something like Caldwell's Silver and Gold being closer to how it originally was by making the zones a higher difficulty. Silver could let you replay all the old base content over again, letting you redo the quests and facing off stronger mobs in the overland. Gold applies to DLC content zones, with an even higher difficulty something akin to the original Craglorn.

Seraphayel

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

I never distribute CP until I reach max level and I don’t buy equipment for my alts. I always level them as if they are a brand new character and it’s still very easy. Granted, I’m a veteran, but there’s nothing challenging in overland content, not without and for sure not with CP allotted.
_____

Overland is already tedious because of the CC. I’d rather have stronger mobs that don’t throw Snares and CCs at me all the time, it would be way more fun this way.

Vlad9425

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

Alurria

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

waterfairy

world bosses/dragons are the hard overland content...if trash mobs were made harder then noobs would quit