Jacozilla wrote: »

Everyone quoting dps needs to provide context because thread is all mixed up.

The 50k being about half a good player 100k is wrong on two counts - first these numbers are fully buffed iron atro parses yet many ppl on thread talk about overland or dungeon with these examples.

Second, a good player does nowhere close to 100k iron atro parse. A top end, one of the best in game player, equal to or within 1-2% of benchmark streamers like Liko, Skinnycheeks, etc. Common sense says if around 95-105k (depending on class) is the absolute cream of the crop, then a merely ‘good’ player be about 80% of this or 80-85k ballpark.

Last, a top end player does just a bit more than 50k, call it 50-54k range on self buff only 3mil dummy. 80% of this max end range would be about 40k for a ‘good’ player.

Therefore, a companion that blasts 50k on solo targets in dungeons or overland is a non starter discussion because not even ‘good’ players will hit that except on super low hp instant kill burst targets.

If we use 40k solo self buffed, single target dps (not group aoe which also inflates and confuses discussion) as the upper end of ‘good’ players, then the median for the ‘average” player could reasonably be qualified as about 20k (this is pure guess, actual median may be higher or lower, I’m just taking rough avg not actual population of player avg)

Therefore, if a companion did more than 20k single target, self buffed dps, then we can reasonably say it is more than the avg player. I don’t see zos doing that even if I personally would prefer that. In my .02 cents this feature is dead on arrival, DOA before launch because too many players will be jealous and not want companions anywhere near their avg dps.

@Jacozilla Right we should be more clear. I was referring to Iron Afro/Trial Boss with buffs when I said 50k was half of a good player. The Iron Atro is typically the best benchmark for comparing DPS because it removes skewing caused by unique class buffs/debuffs. Maybe it’s fair to call a “good player” 80-90k after the CP changes, a few weeks ago I would’ve said 90-100k, but it’s the same order of magnitude. I don’t think anyone would claim that 60 or 70k is “good” fully buffed DPS.

Now to clarify unbuffed values. The comparison to a solo boss or 3 mil dummy is a little dubious because of class imbalances, but I’d say it’s roughly half. So when I stated a companion should do 50k buffed, I would expect that to translate to around 25k unbuffed.

Sounds like you’re on roughly the same page, if the companion ceiling was set to 20k unbuffed (assuming you’ve taken every step to fully optimize the companion’s gear, skills etc.). In this case I would expect it to do near 40k if you sent it to solo an Iron Atro, which is half of the 80k “good player” definition. Tbh I’m fine with these values too, I don’t think I’m debating you specifically. I’m debating everyone who said companions should do 2k, or 5k, or 10k. That would just make them worthless.

IMO a player DPS + tank companion team and a player tank + DPS companion team should be roughly equal if this new system is fairly balanced. Making DPS companions as useless as other NPC’s would be a mistake. I don’t believe there is much harm in making them better than the DPS floor, a little incentive for players to spend a couple hours working on a decent build and rotation would be welcomed. The vast majority of the player base is capable of 40-50k on an Iron Atro if they do a little research and practice.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

Everyone quoting dps needs to provide context because thread is all mixed up.

The 50k being about half a good player 100k is wrong on two counts - first these numbers are fully buffed iron atro parses yet many ppl on thread talk about overland or dungeon with these examples.

Second, a good player does nowhere close to 100k iron atro parse. A top end, one of the best in game player, equal to or within 1-2% of benchmark streamers like Liko, Skinnycheeks, etc. Common sense says if around 95-105k (depending on class) is the absolute cream of the crop, then a merely ‘good’ player be about 80% of this or 80-85k ballpark.

Last, a top end player does just a bit more than 50k, call it 50-54k range on self buff only 3mil dummy. 80% of this max end range would be about 40k for a ‘good’ player.

Therefore, a companion that blasts 50k on solo targets in dungeons or overland is a non starter discussion because not even ‘good’ players will hit that except on super low hp instant kill burst targets.

If we use 40k solo self buffed, single target dps (not group aoe which also inflates and confuses discussion) as the upper end of ‘good’ players, then the median for the ‘average” player could reasonably be qualified as about 20k (this is pure guess, actual median may be higher or lower, I’m just taking rough avg not actual population of player avg)

Therefore, if a companion did more than 20k single target, self buffed dps, then we can reasonably say it is more than the avg player. I don’t see zos doing that even if I personally would prefer that. In my .02 cents this feature is dead on arrival, DOA before launch because too many players will be jealous and not want companions anywhere near their avg dps.

@Jacozilla Right we should be more clear. I was referring to Iron Afro/Trial Boss with buffs when I said 50k was half of a good player. The Iron Atro is typically the best benchmark for comparing DPS because it removes skewing caused by unique class buffs/debuffs. Maybe it’s fair to call a “good player” 80-90k after the CP changes, a few weeks ago I would’ve said 90-100k, but it’s the same order of magnitude. I don’t think anyone would claim that 60 or 70k is “good” fully buffed DPS.

Now to clarify unbuffed values. The comparison to a solo boss or 3 mil dummy is a little dubious because of class imbalances, but I’d say it’s roughly half. So when I stated a companion should do 50k buffed, I would expect that to translate to around 25k unbuffed.

Sounds like you’re on roughly the same page, if the companion ceiling was set to 20k unbuffed (assuming you’ve taken every step to fully optimize the companion’s gear, skills etc.). In this case I would expect it to do near 40k if you sent it to solo an Iron Atro, which is half of the 80k “good player” definition. Tbh I’m fine with these values too, I don’t think I’m debating you specifically. I’m debating everyone who said companions should do 2k, or 5k, or 10k. That would just make them worthless.

IMO a player DPS + tank companion team and a player tank + DPS companion team should be roughly equal if this new system is fairly balanced. Making DPS companions as useless as other NPC’s would be a mistake. I don’t believe there is much harm in making them better than the DPS floor, a little incentive for players to spend a couple hours working on a decent build and rotation would be welcomed. The vast majority of the player base is capable of 40-50k on an Iron Atro if they do a little research and practice.

Agreed. Pretty much saying same thing, ballpark.

Personally I’d like companions to be 20-25k self buffed, solo target, b/c rough ballpark half of avg player in same conditions.

But my prediction is DOA b/c no way there won’t be an uproar about it. And if launched with decent dps, inevitable nerf after because that’s how most good things end - sell update with it then nerf.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Why would they be so low? They could do 50k and still be half of a good player. If they’re intended to make soloing as a tank or healer less painful then they’d have to be at least equal to a mediocre DPS.

I wish zos make them alright. I only expect mediocre dps from random que player anyways.

15k dps would allow you to solo all vet dungeons except maybe two with a 5k dps build.

A build only needs 20-25K dps (on 3 mill dummy) to complete All non-trial content (even in vet)

So a companion that puts out near that amount would mean literal AFK

Kurat wrote: »

Lmao. There will be alot of disappointed people. Those expectations 20, 30 even 50k lol. I cant see them doing more than 2-3k. We saw from livestream that they have 1 bar and 5 skill slots. All skills had long cooldowns 8-16 sec mainly. Even spammable was 8 sec while tooltip only 3k ish. So they can only cast 1 low dmg skill every 2-3 sec lol. How people think they are able to hit 10k even?

This, now I say 3-5 K as 3 is good monster sets like maw or Zaan.
Now with buff builds like SPC, combat prayer and chaining inn mobs it might be more interesting.

If I am being optimistic I would hope around the 20K - 30K range.

If I am setting my expectations to be realistic they will probably end up somewhere around the 5K - 10K range.

If they are hoping they will take the place of a player in end game content I hope they have come up with a way to give them decent damage out put.

I hope they go the route that they can be used in addition to team mates not replace team mates, if you get stuck with crappy DPS while pugging and you can add 4 of these companions to the group, it might make the dungeon runs bare-able when you get the worst possible groups, stopping tanks and healers from abandoning groups.

Silaf wrote: »

The main point is not how much damage or tanking but can they follow mechanics?
Every dungeon final bposs require to follow a mechanic.
How will they behave in malatar for example? On the orb sphere boss a dps need to know what to attack first and do it fast. I quite francly can't see Lydia ever doing it...

I doubt they are intended to take up this sort of role.

Depends if they can animation cancel or not

lol @ people who expect Companions to make use of proc sets, that they can weave / animation cancel and will be able to deal +20k DPS.

These expectations are beyond delusional.

How would that even work? You go afk in a mob spawn somewhere and your Companion just farms for you while you’re watching a TV show or cooking a meal? While you’re doing your daily workout or walk your dog?

I would be surprised if they crack 10K, especially if they have cooldowns of some kind.

If you think about what it takes to get proper dps (animation cancel/light attack weaving) it is dubious to believe that an npc will have the necessary AI to pull that off. It could probably be done, but it seems highly unlikely to me.

I just hope that the don't tag along right next to me distracting or interrupting my interactions with objects or containers - so annoying when I accidently trigger dialogue.

AyaDark wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Alaztor91 wrote: »

As far as I know they don't weave, they only have 1 bar and they have no resource cost on skills but they have cooldowns and cast times on them(even spammable?).

How much DPS would a player do placing down 2 Ground AoE DoTs, maybe 1 Single Target DoT and using 2 more damage skills with roughly 8 seconds pauses between them, using only Class and Weapon skills, without weaving, without food and using Light/Heavy attacks as filler xd?

They should weave, since ZOS seems to have balanced the entire game around being able to do that perfectly. I would accept a .75 LA ratio on a Companion though, something a normal player can hit pretty easily.

They do ???

Why do not I see it anywhere ???

I don't know a single person playing on off-server just for the sake of it so should be pretty rare, lol.

To elaborate further I obviously have some experience from my main server but still without a single full set it's pretty okay for random normals once a month when I don't feel like playing on EU and want to get feeling of being new to the game. So this numbers should be okay for an actually useful companion, stuff dies at least so newer players can solo their pledge without much problem with such a companion which I believe was devs intention.