Why isn't Twice Born Star considered top tier?

ThePlacidHatter · March 2021

A lot of people say Medusa is a great magicka set and I would agree. However, no one seems to rate TBS very highly.

Medusa's 5 piece grants you Minor Force, increasing your crit damage by 10%.

With TBS and mostly purple armour (two gold), I can equip Shadow and increase my crit damage by 17%. Not only that but I am still able to benefit from Minor Force if I can get it some other way.

I realise Medusa also has a heap of crit chance but does that make up for 7% of crit damage?

catnamedwill · March 2021

TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.

Runefang · March 2021

catnamedwill wrote: »

TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.

This. There are many sets out there which are good but poor set bonus choices by ZoS means they don't quite cut it as top tier sets. So many of the DPS sets with a line of pen for example, could be top tier trial sets but aren't because they decided to make them for PvP instead.

zvavi · March 2021

catnamedwill wrote: »

TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.

This. Twice born star has 2 useless set bonuses, if one of them was useful, it would have been a very good set.

vesselwiththepestle · March 2021

On classes where you run Shadow anyway, you lose ~700 crit for 1096 Magicka. (Health and Stamina don't matter.)

On classes where you run the Thief, you trade 2863 crit for 18% crit damage and 1096 Magicka. If you can afford to lose 2863 crit, you probably wouldn't have gone with Thief in the first place. However, I guess it is worth a try and the result might surprise you?

It is definitely a valid set. It's not like you suddenly deal trash dps when you run TBS instead of Medusa. Additionally you don't need to farm a destro staff and theoretically you could still combine it with another heavy or medium set, whatever that might be

.

The big disadvantage of TBS is when it comes to changing gear for different content...

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2021

TBS needs to consolidate its max magicka and stamina bonuses into a single bonus and add stam/mag recovery or spell/weapon damage.

So like:
2pc: adds X health
3pc: adds X max magicka and stamina
4pc: adds X mag and stam recovery
5pc: use two mundi stones at same time

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2021

WTB Thrice Born Star.

I am no expert on the math, but the 2-4 bonuses are the biggest thing keeping this out of the discussion as a viable end game set. It was meta once upon a time.

Athan1 · March 2021

I still like my TBS, it's just so versatile

krseb17_ESO · March 2021

TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

olsborg · March 2021

TBS is way less stat dense then other sets.

Sahidom · March 2021

TBS was once good then they began changing the Mundus and you were trait restricted to Divines to gain anything close to other sets.

Sahidom · March 2021

krseb17_ESO wrote: »

TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

Thats not a bug. FYI.

WrathOfInnos · March 2021

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

WTB Thrice Born Star.

I am no expert on the math, but the 2-4 bonuses are the biggest thing keeping this out of the discussion as a viable end game set. It was meta once upon a time.

Yep, great set when Thief w 7 divines gave 16.7% crit, that was enough to outweigh the weak 2-4 pieces, but the current 9.9% crit is not. IIRC Shadow was around 19-20% crit damage in those days so the two paired together nicely. Sources of crit damage were very limited before EC, Barbed Trap/Accelerate/Medusa, Minor Brittle, Khajiit passives, etc.

martijnlv40 · March 2021

As others have indicated, it's shy of being good by 1 set bonus. My suggestion would be to either make it like this:
2pc: adds X max magicka
3pc: adds X max stamina
4pc: adds X weapon and spell damage
5pc: use two mundi stones at same time
Or:
2pc: adds X health
3pc: adds X max magicka and stamina
4pc: adds X weapon and spell damage
5pc: use two mundi stones at same time

Depends on if the ~1k health would make it too strong in PvP I guess. No need to put recovery bonuses or penetration in there, since you can more easily balance any stat with the mundi stones, while weapon/spell damage and resources should be your final choice in balancing.

gariondavey · March 2021

Buff twice born star! Long ago they said 9 trait crafting was supposed to be the best gear you could get.

fred4 · March 2021

krseb17_ESO wrote: »

TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

This.

NeillMcAttack · March 2021

I use it for PvP all the time. I run 6 divines with it and it grants me 380WD and over 4K pen. The stat bonus’ work well for PvP too. Love that set, except for the major inconvenience of of gear changing....

ArcVelarian · March 2021

They should buff 9 trait sets in general.

SirAndy · March 2021

The difference between good, top tier and BiS is usually measured in fractions of percent.

I have come to accept that what works just fine for 99.99% of the game content will still be called "complete trash" by the min/max crowd because it parses 0.035% less on a dummy that doesn't fight back.

ThePlacidHatter · April 2021

I'm wondering if anyone has mathed out TBS with Thief and Shadow or is everyone just repeating what others have said?

I have a pretty weak understanding of how damage is calculated in ESO and ordinary math skills to go with that, so please chime in if any of my numbers are off.

I believe the base crit damage in ESO is 50%?

So with my current gear (Mother's Sorrow, TBS & MAW) and no other buffs, my crit chance is 52.1% and then my crit damage is 17% (from Shadow + divines) + 50% for 67%.

With my spell power of 2918, Force Pulse deals 2261 (2366 shock).

If we just work with one of the damage numbers from Force Pulse, 2261, 100 uses of Force Pulse should give me an average of 305,024 flame damage.
I worked this out by using ((2261 *1.67) * 52.1) + (2261 * 47.9).

If I were to change my TBS for Medusa, I would lose my 17% crit damage from Shadow but gain 10% crit damage from Minor Force. I would also lose ~1083 magicka, which we know affects spell damage.
I would in return gain ~2762 spell crit which would give me around 13% crit chance.

To get the numbers below, I dropped my Maw set, instead of having to faff around with TBS and getting Mundus back This lost me 1071 magicka instead of the 1083 I would have lost from dropping TBS.

With Medusa, my flame damage from Force Pulse would be ~2157, my crit chance would be 65% and my crit damage would be 60%.
100 uses of Force Pulse should give me an average of 299,823 damage.
This was calculated by ((2157 *1.6) * 65) + (2157 * 35).

From my math (again, point my in the right direction if I have something/everything wrong), damage from Medusa should be slightly less than (but effectively the same as) TBS with full divines (I have two yellows).
This ignores the fact that with TBS, I am still able to get Minor Force from another source to make the damage much better than Medusa.

So why then is Medusa considered better than TBS?

If you're wondering why I'm just picking on Medusa, it's because I saw it ranked highly in this list. TBS was not even mentioned in this list.

lolo_01b16_ESO · April 2021

Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.

ThePlacidHatter · April 2021

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.

If I use the same math for Medusa + shadow, that works out to ~308k. It is more, but not but a lot. Also ignores gaining Minor Force from other sources.

mocap · April 2021

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.

difference:
1.5% crit chance
0% crit damage since you can have Minor force other ways

Now with +1.2k hp bonus from TBS you can go without any doubt for blue sustain drink. And only stam bonus is kinda useless.

TBS is absolutely ok set, especially when you don't have time to farm inferno medusa for that super +1.5% crit chance differece.

Zama666 · April 2021

krseb17_ESO wrote: »

TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

ugh! is there a place to file bugz?

MindOfTheSwarm · April 2021

Just another example of crit damage being too op. It needs a nerf. They nerfed crit chance, fair enough but it’s damage that is the issue.

CableBomb · April 2021

Buff TBS! Someone said the idea of having five-piece also amplify the Mundus Stones a certain percentage. I liked this idea.

WrathOfInnos · April 2021

@ThePlacidHatter Its probably simpler to compare it to Mother’s Sorrow, which is about equal to Medusa, and doesn’t bring any armor weight complications. Assuming both builds use Shadow as their primary mundus stone, TBS would add Thief for 9.9% crit in full divines.

Mother’s Sorrow gives a total of 13% crit. Both sets also have a line of 1096 Max Magicka, so that cancels out. Basically it becomes an option of 3.1% crit (MS) or 1096 Stamina + 1206 Health (TBS). Crit is the most important stat for DPS, and translates to a little over 2% DPS edge to MS. Most damage builds don’t care at all about health or hybrid resources.