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Why isn't Twice Born Star considered top tier?

ThePlacidHatter
ThePlacidHatter
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A lot of people say Medusa is a great magicka set and I would agree. However, no one seems to rate TBS very highly.

Medusa's 5 piece grants you Minor Force, increasing your crit damage by 10%.

With TBS and mostly purple armour (two gold), I can equip Shadow and increase my crit damage by 17%. Not only that but I am still able to benefit from Minor Force if I can get it some other way.

I realise Medusa also has a heap of crit chance but does that make up for 7% of crit damage?
  • catnamedwill
    catnamedwill
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    TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.
  • Runefang
    Runefang
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    TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.

    This. There are many sets out there which are good but poor set bonus choices by ZoS means they don't quite cut it as top tier sets. So many of the DPS sets with a line of pen for example, could be top tier trial sets but aren't because they decided to make them for PvP instead.
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    TBS is one set bonus short of being a good set.

    This. Twice born star has 2 useless set bonuses, if one of them was useful, it would have been a very good set.
  • vesselwiththepestle
    vesselwiththepestle
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    On classes where you run Shadow anyway, you lose ~700 crit for 1096 Magicka. (Health and Stamina don't matter.)

    On classes where you run the Thief, you trade 2863 crit for 18% crit damage and 1096 Magicka. If you can afford to lose 2863 crit, you probably wouldn't have gone with Thief in the first place. However, I guess it is worth a try and the result might surprise you?

    It is definitely a valid set. It's not like you suddenly deal trash dps when you run TBS instead of Medusa. Additionally you don't need to farm a destro staff and theoretically you could still combine it with another heavy or medium set, whatever that might be :).

    The big disadvantage of TBS is when it comes to changing gear for different content...
    Edited by vesselwiththepestle on March 30, 2021 10:39AM
    1000+ CP
    PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant

    Give me my wings back!
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
    Bobby_V_Rockit
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    TBS needs to consolidate its max magicka and stamina bonuses into a single bonus and add stam/mag recovery or spell/weapon damage.

    So like:
    2pc: adds X health
    3pc: adds X max magicka and stamina
    4pc: adds X mag and stam recovery
    5pc: use two mundi stones at same time
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    WTB Thrice Born Star.

    I am no expert on the math, but the 2-4 bonuses are the biggest thing keeping this out of the discussion as a viable end game set. It was meta once upon a time.
  • Athan1
    Athan1
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    I still like my TBS, it's just so versatile
    Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr
  • krseb17_ESO
    krseb17_ESO
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    TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    TBS is way less stat dense then other sets.

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
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    TBS was once good then they began changing the Mundus and you were trait restricted to Divines to gain anything close to other sets.

  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
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    TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

    Thats not a bug. FYI.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    WTB Thrice Born Star.

    I am no expert on the math, but the 2-4 bonuses are the biggest thing keeping this out of the discussion as a viable end game set. It was meta once upon a time.

    Yep, great set when Thief w 7 divines gave 16.7% crit, that was enough to outweigh the weak 2-4 pieces, but the current 9.9% crit is not. IIRC Shadow was around 19-20% crit damage in those days so the two paired together nicely. Sources of crit damage were very limited before EC, Barbed Trap/Accelerate/Medusa, Minor Brittle, Khajiit passives, etc.
  • martijnlv40
    martijnlv40
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    As others have indicated, it's shy of being good by 1 set bonus. My suggestion would be to either make it like this:
    2pc: adds X max magicka
    3pc: adds X max stamina
    4pc: adds X weapon and spell damage
    5pc: use two mundi stones at same time
    Or:
    2pc: adds X health
    3pc: adds X max magicka and stamina
    4pc: adds X weapon and spell damage
    5pc: use two mundi stones at same time

    Depends on if the ~1k health would make it too strong in PvP I guess. No need to put recovery bonuses or penetration in there, since you can more easily balance any stat with the mundi stones, while weapon/spell damage and resources should be your final choice in balancing.
  • gariondavey
    gariondavey
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    Buff twice born star! Long ago they said 9 trait crafting was supposed to be the best gear you could get.
    PC NA @gariondavey, BG, IC & Cyrodiil Focused Since October 2017 Stamplar (main), Magplar, Magsorc, Stamsorc, StamDK, MagDK, Stamblade, Magblade, Magden, Stamden
  • fred4
    fred4
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    TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.
    This.
    PC EU (EP): Magicka NB (main), Stamina NB, Stamina DK, Stamina Sorcerer, Magicka Warden, Magicka Templar, Stamina Templar
    PC NA (EP): Magicka NB
  • NeillMcAttack
    NeillMcAttack
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    I use it for PvP all the time. I run 6 divines with it and it grants me 380WD and over 4K pen. The stat bonus’ work well for PvP too. Love that set, except for the major inconvenience of of gear changing....
    PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvP
    Tiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP Main
    Legion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE Main
    Sephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DC
    The Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc AD
    Lone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD
    @ McAttack in game
    Played since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.
  • ArcVelarian
    ArcVelarian
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    They should buff 9 trait sets in general.
    Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.
  • SirAndy
    SirAndy
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    The difference between good, top tier and BiS is usually measured in fractions of percent.

    I have come to accept that what works just fine for 99.99% of the game content will still be called "complete trash" by the min/max crowd because it parses 0.035% less on a dummy that doesn't fight back.
    rolleyes.gif

  • ThePlacidHatter
    ThePlacidHatter
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    I'm wondering if anyone has mathed out TBS with Thief and Shadow or is everyone just repeating what others have said?

    I have a pretty weak understanding of how damage is calculated in ESO and ordinary math skills to go with that, so please chime in if any of my numbers are off.

    I believe the base crit damage in ESO is 50%?

    So with my current gear (Mother's Sorrow, TBS & MAW) and no other buffs, my crit chance is 52.1% and then my crit damage is 17% (from Shadow + divines) + 50% for 67%.

    With my spell power of 2918, Force Pulse deals 2261 (2366 shock).

    If we just work with one of the damage numbers from Force Pulse, 2261, 100 uses of Force Pulse should give me an average of 305,024 flame damage.
    I worked this out by using ((2261 *1.67) * 52.1) + (2261 * 47.9).

    If I were to change my TBS for Medusa, I would lose my 17% crit damage from Shadow but gain 10% crit damage from Minor Force. I would also lose ~1083 magicka, which we know affects spell damage.
    I would in return gain ~2762 spell crit which would give me around 13% crit chance.

    To get the numbers below, I dropped my Maw set, instead of having to faff around with TBS and getting Mundus back This lost me 1071 magicka instead of the 1083 I would have lost from dropping TBS.

    With Medusa, my flame damage from Force Pulse would be ~2157, my crit chance would be 65% and my crit damage would be 60%.
    100 uses of Force Pulse should give me an average of 299,823 damage.
    This was calculated by ((2157 *1.6) * 65) + (2157 * 35).

    From my math (again, point my in the right direction if I have something/everything wrong), damage from Medusa should be slightly less than (but effectively the same as) TBS with full divines (I have two yellows).
    This ignores the fact that with TBS, I am still able to get Minor Force from another source to make the damage much better than Medusa.

    So why then is Medusa considered better than TBS?

    If you're wondering why I'm just picking on Medusa, it's because I saw it ranked highly in this list. TBS was not even mentioned in this list.
    Edited by ThePlacidHatter on April 1, 2021 8:09AM
  • lolo_01b16_ESO
    lolo_01b16_ESO
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    Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
    TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

    Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.
  • ThePlacidHatter
    ThePlacidHatter
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    Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
    TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

    Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.

    If I use the same math for Medusa + shadow, that works out to ~308k. It is more, but not but a lot. Also ignores gaining Minor Force from other sources.
  • mocap
    mocap
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    Medusa + shadow mundus adds 13% crit chance and 27% crit damage
    TBS + shadow + thief adds 11.5% crit chance, 17% crit damage and 1k magicka

    Should be quite obvious why TBS isn't the best choice in most situations.

    difference:
    1.5% crit chance
    0% crit damage since you can have Minor force other ways

    Now with +1.2k hp bonus from TBS you can go without any doubt for blue sustain drink. And only stam bonus is kinda useless.

    TBS is absolutely ok set, especially when you don't have time to farm inferno medusa for that super +1.5% crit chance differece.
    Edited by mocap on April 2, 2021 12:34PM
  • Zama666
    Zama666
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    TBS is still "bugged" in that if you offbar it or swap gear you lose you second mundus when equipping it again, making it unusable for trials anyway.

    ugh! is there a place to file bugz?
  • MindOfTheSwarm
    MindOfTheSwarm
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    Just another example of crit damage being too op. It needs a nerf. They nerfed crit chance, fair enough but it’s damage that is the issue.
  • CableBomb
    CableBomb
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    Buff TBS! Someone said the idea of having five-piece also amplify the Mundus Stones a certain percentage. I liked this idea.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    @ThePlacidHatter Its probably simpler to compare it to Mother’s Sorrow, which is about equal to Medusa, and doesn’t bring any armor weight complications. Assuming both builds use Shadow as their primary mundus stone, TBS would add Thief for 9.9% crit in full divines.

    Mother’s Sorrow gives a total of 13% crit. Both sets also have a line of 1096 Max Magicka, so that cancels out. Basically it becomes an option of 3.1% crit (MS) or 1096 Stamina + 1206 Health (TBS). Crit is the most important stat for DPS, and translates to a little over 2% DPS edge to MS. Most damage builds don’t care at all about health or hybrid resources.
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