Permablocked, the issue of medium armor.

nemvar · March 2021

I am somewhat concerned about the 3% block cost reduction medium armor will receive next patch. If BCR is thematic for medium armor is not even the problem, the issue here is math.

Before the patch, medium and heavy armor had the same maximum BCR. It was achieved with 100 point in shadow ward, golden BCR enchants, golden sturdy, fortress and Defensive Stance.
For those unaware, BCR is calculated as follows (Base cost - Flat reduction) * (1 - sturdy) * (1 - shadow ward) * (1 - passives) * (1 - actives).
This resulted in a minimum block cost of 333 (= (1750 - 609) * (1 - .32) * (1 - .25) * (1 - .36) * (1 - .10)).
Because heavy armor has better synergy with blocking, it was the better armor for this purpose.

Now for after patch.
The following does not take Survival Instinct passive into account. It assumes golden sturdy on all pieces, golden BCR enchants, highest stage of Stalwart Defender, level 2 fortress passive and Defensive Stance. Shadow ward is obviously not a thing anymore.

7 pieces of medium armor: (1750 - 689) * (1 - .32) * (1 - (.21 + .36)) * (1 - .10) = 279
7 pieces of heavy armor: (1750 - 689) * (1 - .32) * (1 - (.36)) * (1 - .10) = 414

As you can see here, the block cost in a min-maxxed heavy armor build is almost 50% higher than that of a medium armor one. And not only that. Medium armor actually has a lower minimum block cost than possible pre-patch and heavy armor became worse than before.

honey_badger82 · March 2021

Now add -6% for an imperial. To me this is not a bad thing, they have taken so much every little bit helps at this point. My main tank will be rolling in 5 med and 2 heavy once this hits and will still be able to max armor. I might do a 4/3 if sustain seems to be fine.

Sangwyne · March 2021

I agree that Medium's block cost reduction needs to be addressed, it's absurd that Medium should be better for blocking when it has zero penalties compared to Heavy's four and tanks in Heavy need it the most. While I agree with your statement, though, I'm a little unsure as to the math. You seem to have lumped the 21% cost reduction from 7 Medium onto the 36% reduction from using an Ice staff or SnB, making it drastically more powerful than regular multiplicative block cost reductions. Are you entirely sure that it works that way? I was under the impression it was multiplicative as with Sturdy, Shadow Ward (RIP) and Defensive Stance; if not and it actually stacks with the 36% cost reduction, then that definitely needs to be addressed, there's absolutely no reason Medium should have less block cost than Heavy to begin with and making it more powerful than other effects is the final straw. Medium should have had penalties if the other armor types required them for balance, or it should not have more bonuses than Heavy, but letting it have more bonuses than Heavy, with zero penalties to Heavy's four, and then ALSO giving it a tanking passive that should be on Heavy? Absolutely shameless.

nemvar · March 2021

If woelers statements from a few years back are to be believed, all reductions from passive abilities should be added together and then multiplied. I'm not 100% certain on that and if I'm wrong, we end up with 327 block cost with full medium armor.

honey_badger82 · March 2021

Remember you can block only 4 attacks a second and do not regen any RSS while blocking. If you have high stamina (30k+) and SnB blocking you will run out of stamina in like 20 seconds. A potion will add just a few more. In pvp if you have just 2 templars on you spamming jabs/ sweeps you are going to be eating at least 4 of those 8 incoming attacks. That's saying they dont have any DoT on you. So perma block... I think not. Even a redguard templar doing a light attack every 5 seconds and with rune active is going to eventually run out of stamina but most likely health first. You would have to build specifically for the purpose of perma blocking and with 7 medium armor pieces all sturdy... your armor is not going to be high enough to keep you alive especially when being ganged up on and taking a dozen attacks a second only blocking 4 for maybe 70% ish mitigation.

With that said I do agree the block cost reduction does belong to heavy armor and not medium.

honey_badger82 · March 2021

Update to perma block...
I am a console player so just got a small taste of playing yesterday (took a few hours to set cp and skills again on just 2 of my 13 characters and to make all new gear for one).
My Imperial templar tank in 5med 2heavy (2x sturdy pieces) with 3 block reduction gold runes on jewelry my block cost is just 449. In vet content I do take more damage from mobs but Almalexias + extra health keeps this pretty much same as pre patch (was not using Almalexias before patch). Against bosses in non DLC vet dungeons I can in fact perma block as long as I am getting synergies from the group and heavy attack in safe windows.
Against the fire atronauch in white gold tower on normal I was able to block through the flame portion of the fight where before I had to move out of the flames even with a good healer. Same thing with the line of lightening on the final boss, stood in it no problem.
Overall I would not say this is a bad thing, I have had to heavily invest into keeping my armor high while wearing 5 medium so I think it balances out.
In pvp I am sure it will be another story. 1 on 1 maybe will be possible to near perma block but with how you need to build for it you wont be bursting anyone down. Against multiple opponents you for sure wont be perma blocking long. I tried against dungeon mobs just to see what 4+ hits second looked like and stamina drops quick. Health was fine but that's because it was trash mobs not players with pen built in.

Firstmep · March 2021

I mean they can remove that bonus frankly, it doesn't make sense to have it on medium anyway.

validifyedneb18_ESO · March 2021

As much as I am not a fan of the people who run S/B offbar and switch to it the second they take too much damage, I dont think this is too big a concern

1 - because they are in medium armor atleast, which is better than the heavy armor meta
2 - because the problems with s/b extend far beyond issues of block costs and more into the general mitigation that it gives any build outside of blocking

selig_fay · April 2021

I just want to say that right now tanks can hold a punch without permablock. Heavy armor gives you a great resist when you are invulnerable to control. But the problem is that when you are invulnerable to control, the mobs keep pushing and interrupting you. So, I think that heavy armor has become better in terms of protection. The problem is with abilities that don't do what they say they do.
And yes, I'm still successfully using this in veteran trials, but interrupts are annoying.

Firstmep · April 2021

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

As much as I am not a fan of the people who run S/B offbar and switch to it the second they take too much damage, I dont think this is too big a concern

1 - because they are in medium armor atleast, which is better than the heavy armor meta
2 - because the problems with s/b extend far beyond issues of block costs and more into the general mitigation that it gives any build outside of blocking

Frankly I always preferred having major evasion on top of s/b for my defenses on my tankier Stam specs.
It really ticks a lot of boxes.
And with the way armor passives work this patch, I really think that's a good way to get a lot of defenses with minimal investment.
Medium armor doesn't get any penalties which is pretty big, especially after seeing how hard I can hit heavy armor folks with Magicka specs due to their increased dmg taken penalty.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO · April 2021

Well this seems to be a nerf request. After the destruction of Mist Form, this would be the final nail to the coffin.
Even so, achieving so low cost with fully golden equipment, requires massive investments.

And how do investments look after the Mist Form nerf ? Unattractive is an understatement.
Imagine you start investing, tinkering, and a month from this boom : they double the block cost.

Sugram22 · July 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

I agree that Medium's block cost reduction needs to be addressed, it's absurd that Medium should be better for blocking when it has zero penalties compared to Heavy's four and tanks in Heavy need it the most. While I agree with your statement, though, I'm a little unsure as to the math. You seem to have lumped the 21% cost reduction from 7 Medium onto the 36% reduction from using an Ice staff or SnB, making it drastically more powerful than regular multiplicative block cost reductions. Are you entirely sure that it works that way? I was under the impression it was multiplicative as with Sturdy, Shadow Ward (RIP) and Defensive Stance; if not and it actually stacks with the 36% cost reduction, then that definitely needs to be addressed, there's absolutely no reason Medium should have less block cost than Heavy to begin with and making it more powerful than other effects is the final straw. Medium should have had penalties if the other armor types required them for balance, or it should not have more bonuses than Heavy, but letting it have more bonuses than Heavy, with zero penalties to Heavy's four, and then ALSO giving it a tanking passive that should be on Heavy? Absolutely shameless.

easy hevy armor is new meant for high HP build and medium for DPS and Block tank build making it possible to make a DPS tank bit tanky DPS char, trying it with DK cat race still low lvl damage in bar with my 2h chars build and also bow warden they are not far apart, its just the new sys if u want more block medium if more HP heavy i get their idea so no nerf necessary its not like way back where u could permanently block unless maybe u make full gear block cost reduction but u suffer from lower DPS so its balanced