The real problem with combat in Overland

Alurria · March 2021

Raegwyr wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

I am not challenging your right to have fun at all, I am challenging exactly what it is people want. I appreciate you don't want to impose your idea of fun on me. Great! But there are others in this thread who have suggested otherwise. I am asking what is changing the difficulty going to do to overland for the longevity of the game. After asking this you tell me you want a instanced or slider. Okay that's great but then again it fractures the player base. You want a harder zone for adventures okay good idea. But changing the whole base game seems to be what some are asking. Is Zos suppose to run a shadow instance of the whole world but harder difficulty? All of this is cost prohibitive, maybe they should go back to subscription based play with different degrees of subs, normal 15$ hard 20$? I don't know but it then defeats the purpose of one tramiel. I am not trying to hinder people from asking for things but sometimes you have to really look at what your asking. How feasible is it to expect them to make a 2nd whole instanced world when one zone like craglorn didn't work.?

Are you aware that zos already put players into different instances of the same zone? The best case to actually see that is when you invite your friends into the group while in the same zone. Sometimes when that happen you won't see your friend even if on map he/she stands next to you. To fix that one of you need to tp to the second aka change instances.
The only change would be making split into normal and vet instances instead of all normal.

Yes I am aware of that, but we are talking about a separate instanced world not just a instance for a zone or quest. I am not a programmer or computer person but I think it would involve completely different servers for such a world as such I think they would Zos or microsoft would be entitled to charge for it. I don't think it's as easy as people make it sound. I could be wrong. Someone with more computer expertise should comment and I mean someone who does this for a living. I can build a computer but i am no expert or instancing. So now we have established that people want a instanced zone right? Not changing the current server to make it harder right? Or is there more than one camp of "overland is too easy" crowd? Just trying to clarify for the sake of discussion. I wouldn't care if your asking for a different instance zone I say good for you I hope they consider it.

Sanguinor2 · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

I am not challenging your right to have fun at all, I am challenging exactly what it is people want. I appreciate you don't want to impose your idea of fun on me. Great! But there are others in this thread who have suggested otherwise. I am asking what is changing the difficulty going to do to overland for the longevity of the game. After asking this you tell me you want a instanced or slider. Okay that's great but then again it fractures the player base. You want a harder zone for adventures okay good idea. But changing the whole base game seems to be what some are asking. Is Zos suppose to run a shadow instance of the whole world but harder difficulty? All of this is cost prohibitive, maybe they should go back to subscription based play with different degrees of subs, normal 15$ hard 20$? I don't know but it then defeats the purpose of one tramiel. I am not trying to hinder people from asking for things but sometimes you have to really look at what your asking. How feasible is it to expect them to make a 2nd whole instanced world when one zone like craglorn didn't work.?

Well first of all, I adressed the longevity point of yours twice. You not seeing that isnt on me but for good measure I will do it a third time: I myself for example dont play overland content anymore. I only buy zone dlcs/chapters if there is other content I want in it like a trial/arena. I am not subbed anymore since all I do is Trials/PvP. Dont need the extra bank space/crafting bag for that. I have enough gold and mats to not run out for years. The chance of me being the only player in this situation is incredibly small. While none of us has numbers (only Zos has those) we can assume that since this is a topic that gets reopened every so often that there is a group of people that feels similar to me. There will also always be players added that will feel this way at one point. If I were to start playing more again and in the process collect more stuff/ had an incentive to play all the story dlcs I might sub again, others might too.

The player base is already fractured. There are multiple instances of all zones already. You might notice that if you group with someone on your friendlist or from a guild that you get a prompt to travel to their instance of a specific zone. The only difference would be the difficulty in some of those instances.

None of us actually know how this would pan out in a cost/benefit way since none of us has any relevant data only Zos knows this. It might very well not be worth doing financially but none of us know this.

Again Craglorn does not compare. Take it from someone that played Craglorn back in the day. I dont want a repeat of a zone that locks me out of progress I worked hard for because Im not in a group. Because old Craglorn did that and without knowing numbers I would suspect that a vast majority of Eso players plays solo so this was destined to fail.

Goregrinder · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Yep NPC's are very dumb, which is why I've never been big into raiding in any MMORPG. They're 100% predictable, and once you learn their patterns/hp/resists/etc you can beat them every time. I always do the bare minimum amount of PVE required to get the gear and items I need, so I can fight smarter enemies: Players.

Tandor · March 2021

Raegwyr wrote: »

Alurria wrote: »

I am not challenging your right to have fun at all, I am challenging exactly what it is people want. I appreciate you don't want to impose your idea of fun on me. Great! But there are others in this thread who have suggested otherwise. I am asking what is changing the difficulty going to do to overland for the longevity of the game. After asking this you tell me you want a instanced or slider. Okay that's great but then again it fractures the player base. You want a harder zone for adventures okay good idea. But changing the whole base game seems to be what some are asking. Is Zos suppose to run a shadow instance of the whole world but harder difficulty? All of this is cost prohibitive, maybe they should go back to subscription based play with different degrees of subs, normal 15$ hard 20$? I don't know but it then defeats the purpose of one tramiel. I am not trying to hinder people from asking for things but sometimes you have to really look at what your asking. How feasible is it to expect them to make a 2nd whole instanced world when one zone like craglorn didn't work.?

Are you aware that zos already put players into different instances of the same zone? The best case to actually see that is when you invite your friends into the group while in the same zone. Sometimes when that happen you won't see your friend even if on map he/she stands next to you. To fix that one of you need to tp to the second aka change instances.
The only change would be making split into normal and vet instances instead of all normal.

That's rather over-simplifying it. When an existing zone is instanced, it's an exact clone of the original. What is being proposed here is only superficially a clone as mob difficulty levels, quest rewards, loot, treasure chests etc would all have to be recalculated and coded - and for what level exactly? CP160? CP810? CP3600? What about the players inbetween?

At the moment there probably aren't that many zones that require instancing outside the main cities, but the proposal would cover all zones in the game including new content zones at launch. How many more servers would be required within each megaserver setup to accommodate it? How much would all that development work and hardware cost, at what delay in new content launches, and for what degree of demand?

Alurria · March 2021

I was speaking about the longevity if they changed the current overland system not a instance system of harder difficulty. But you clarified we are talking about instanced right? It wasn't evident in prior people's posts. Sorry for the confusion. I absolutely agree with you on craglorn as I had the same problem which I quit playing for a year or two after that. I appreciate your answers. I also think there are others in this thread who are asking for something different. But as I said I have no problem with those who want a different instanced harder zone at all. Just as long as it's not being imposed on those who don't want it or are new players.

Just as an aside the title of this thread is misleading as it indicates a problem with overland content when in fact people are asking for a harder instance zone.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.

One of the main reason I didn't buy Greymoor. They tried so hard to hype up the big bad Vampire Lord, but you know he's going to put up about as much of a fight as a random guar, so what's the point?

Games like FFXIV show that it's possible to have a middle ground between story/cinematic fights and challenge. Games like Black Desert show that it's possible to have challenging overworld content without scaring everyone off. It's okay to ask something of your players.

There's no shortage of MMOs out there where I can perpetually [snip] the same few instances until my eyes bleed. The massive world and quests were what drew me to ESO, so it's a shame that it's so unengaging.

[edited for vulgar commentary]

Iccotak · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

I was speaking about the longevity if they changed the current overland system not a instance system of harder difficulty. But you clarified we are talking about instanced right? It wasn't evident in prior people's posts. Sorry for the confusion. I absolutely agree with you on craglorn as I had the same problem which I quit playing for a year or two after that. I appreciate your answers. I also think there are others in this thread who are asking for something different. But as I said I have no problem with those who want a different instanced harder zone at all. Just as long as it's not being imposed on those who don't want it or are new players.

Just as an aside the title of this thread is misleading as it indicates a problem with overland content when in fact people are asking for a harder instance zone.

it’s not misleading at all. The post points out an issue with overland content gameplay experience. That’s all it did.

It did not propose any solutions, it did not impose anything on anyone. It is merely a conversation starter as to what could be done to solve this problem.
This is an ongoing conversation, a brainstorming session.

While some have proposed across-the-board balancing —— other People in the thread have proposed a separate harder instance of existing zones, as a way of providing enjoyable and engaging overland content to players - who may be getting bored of the current set up.
—————————————————-

Sanguinor2 · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

I was speaking about the longevity if they changed the current overland system not a instance system of harder difficulty. But you clarified we are talking about instanced right? It wasn't evident in prior people's posts. Sorry for the confusion. I absolutely agree with you on craglorn as I had the same problem which I quit playing for a year or two after that. I appreciate your answers. I also think there are others in this thread who are asking for something different. But as I said I have no problem with those who want a different instanced harder zone at all. Just as long as it's not being imposed on those who don't want it or are new players.

Just as an aside the title of this thread is misleading as it indicates a problem with overland content when in fact people are asking for a harder instance zone.

Well I was always talking about what I wanted which is an optional difficutly increase. I know that it would be a problem to have brand new players do overland content designed to be hard for CP 1200+ players. Side effect of the whole no leveled zones but it is what it is.

Imo the title isnt actually misleading the harder instanced zones are the solution to the problem that wouldnt have negative consequences for everyone else.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

LalMirchi wrote: »

A simple solution could be a scroll the reduces the players power.

Perhaps a scroll with different degrees of nerfing (20% ~80%?).

This would not necessitate major changes to the game as the effect would be individual.

they already introduced level scaling in one tamriel. thats why a level 3 is nearly as strong as a level 3,000.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

Iccotak · March 2021

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.

It’s not an effective solution.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

I think the challenging aspects of the over world was "Exploration" and that was ruined due to add ons. "here's every book location!, here's every skyshard location! here's every location location!"

lets face it players killed alot of things in eso, we have no one to blame but ourselves. what could have been hours and hours of searchign for hidden delves,hunting down skyshards, exchanging information, and bragging rights on IF we found all skyshards in certian location. became a necessity and a norm. it became a chore and no longer fun.

The_Drop_Bear · March 2021

BrownChicken wrote: »

I can imagine how this year I will be able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon in two strikes ... And I feel scared for the game.

I really hope they do some sort of gist and we don't fight him. Because otherwise it kind of ruins the threat of a daedric prince.

Raegwyr · March 2021

SeaArcanist wrote: »

I think the challenging aspects of the over world was "Exploration" and that was ruined due to add ons. "here's every book location!, here's every skyshard location! here's every location location!"

lets face it players killed alot of things in eso, we have no one to blame but ourselves. what could have been hours and hours of searchign for hidden delves,hunting down skyshards, exchanging information, and bragging rights on IF we found all skyshards in certian location. became a necessity and a norm. it became a chore and no longer fun.

And how it is related to quest bosses hyped for 10h of main chapter quest just to be killed in quick and braindead easy fight?

Lysette · March 2021

Mayrael wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?

It's not about not dying but about keep going despite the difficulties. You want to go this way? Ok. There is no courage without fear, there is no respect when there is no difficulty, there is no hero when there is no risk of dying.

See, I could now tell you how ridiculous pvp combat is in ESO compared to a real pvp game, where dying matters more than a few minutes of time lost. But it is most likely pointless to do, so I just leave it at that.

My way to play games is trying not to die at all or at least keep the number of death as low as possible - i wouldn't play a game where I'm forced to die a lot by design,

Oh it's my way also, but I don't want it to be handed me for free. I want to work for it, I want to outsmart the difficulties both in PvE and PvP, I want to feel that I'm doing something meaningful for the story.

Why every movie we watch doesn't look like ESO combat? Why we don't see in movies from MCU, DC, movies like Godzilla etc. etc. fights that end in 5s where hero arrives, hits main vilain 2 times and boom, we have ending. Because it would be boring, dull and not fun at all. But thats how ESO stories look like.

Then I think of Rambo - shooting an explosive arrow and fighting half an army on his own - that is the super-hero theme basically, unrealistic and nevertheless fun to watch - might not be fun to play, but fun to watch.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · March 2021

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

I'll say the same thing I say every time someone thinks this is an actual solution. You could strip yourself naked and the overworld mobs would still pose no threat to you.

It's funny that you say that nobody wants to challenge themselves in a thread where...people are asking for the ability to challenge themselves. Stripping armor/CP does nothing. If the mobs were any easier, they'd fall on their swords for you.

Alurria · March 2021

Sorry I misquoted the wrong person:
The same thing that was said before overland is not suppose to be the challenge, trials and dungeons the challenge. Until they make you a instanced zone if ever. We can go round and round or you guys who want more challenge could ask for another area that will give you a challenge and let the rest of us enjoy the game the way it is.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

The same thing that was said before overland is not suppose to be the challenge, trials and dungeons the challenge. Until they make you a instanced zone if ever. We can go round and round or you guys who want more challenge could ask for another area that will give you a challenge and let the rest of us enjoy the game the way it is.

And at no point did anyone ever suggest that every player should be forced into it (hence the constant suggestions of an optional Veteran overworld). I don't know why people keep trying to argue a point that nobody was making in the first place.

Alurria · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Please read the original OP and tell me that no one is asking for that? The original post has been edited several times so I will just leave this here. I can no longer participate in this thread as it's appears to be going in circles. Brainstorming is the very definition of problem solving not going in circles.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

I'll say the same thing I say every time someone thinks this is an actual solution. You could strip yourself naked and the overworld mobs would still pose no threat to you.

It's funny that you say that nobody wants to challenge themselves in a thread where...people are asking for the ability to challenge themselves. Stripping armor/CP does nothing. If the mobs were any easier, they'd fall on their swords for you.

i'm sorry, i just feel that asking to make the overworld harder is nonsense. the overworld is more than just enemies, it's not the main focus. if there was zero difficulty i nthe game i'd be incline to agree with you. but since trail,dungeons, and world bosses exist. the game already has its challenge from monsters and enemies.

what this is asking is "oh level 1 is too easy, its not like level 100! can yo umake level 1 more difficult? "um.. no? jsut dont play level 1 if its too easy, go do level 100+"

SeaArcanist · March 2021

or if you want every enemy to eb challenging, go do dark souls? idk. but this is an mmo, it has pregression. you;re asking for lowest tier to be harder because it is no longer challenging? why? why askfor this? why not go do harder content?

Agenericname · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Please read the original OP and tell me that no one is asking for that?

The OP doesn't speak for everyone, so its impossible to ask them to be accountable for everyone. I didnt read that they're asking for anything as much as pointing out that it isnt engaging.

SeaArcanist wrote: »

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

I'll say the same thing I say every time someone thinks this is an actual solution. You could strip yourself naked and the overworld mobs would still pose no threat to you.

It's funny that you say that nobody wants to challenge themselves in a thread where...people are asking for the ability to challenge themselves. Stripping armor/CP does nothing. If the mobs were any easier, they'd fall on their swords for you.

i'm sorry, i just feel that asking to make the overworld harder is nonsense. the overworld is more than just enemies, it's not the main focus. if there was zero difficulty i nthe game i'd be incline to agree with you. but since trail,dungeons, and world bosses exist. the game already has its challenge from monsters and enemies.

what this is asking is "oh level 1 is too easy, its not like level 100! can yo umake level 1 more difficult? "um.. no? jsut dont play level 1 if its too easy, go do level 100+"

Its not about challenge as much as engagement and immersion. Theyre not always the same. Its a TES story/world. If the objective is to battle something, then combat is part of that story. If there zero chance of failure, then it cant really be immersive.

If combat isnt part of that story, then its a moot point anyway.

phantasmalD · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)

That point is just straight up not true. Not only are some mobs designated and marked as tier 2 or higher enemies but even same tier enemies have varying difficulty
A 14k hp Skeever with low damage and 3 moves is clearly on a different level than a 60k hp Cliff Strider with moderate damage and 6 moves.

Iccotak wrote: »

- their notice range of sight is very small

Eh, personally I find the aggro range actually annoyingly oversized without the Shadow Rider perk

Iccotak wrote: »

- They’re too slow

That's like the one thing I agree with. The downtime between abilities is sometimes too big,especially on mage NPCs; after casting one AoE they sometimes just stand still for a good 5-6 seconds.

exeeter702 · March 2021

linuxlady wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Game are meant to be more like an interactive movie where you get to participate in the preordained outcome of your heroes success. If your expectation is anything else you are choosing to deceive yourself.

This is fundamentally false in every way.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2021

I remember very early on in game (within a month of release), I was interested in becoming a werewolf. I had heard that their were places in the Rift where it was likely to get a bite from an NPC. There was almost no market to get one from another player at that point, although the potential to sell bites was certainly a motivator.

A buddy and I went, both of us were probably in the early 20s, and at that time, being the last EP zone, the enemies were scaled to around 42 or so. I remember feeling, excited, anxious, nervous, maybe a little bit scared about moving through the zone. I remember asking, "are we really supposed to be here?" We fought a pack of tigers and while we did win, it was a fight for our lives. It was fun, engaging, and exciting.

At this point, I havent done a story quest other than for something specific I needed since Clockwork. Sure some of the stories are fine, but any one of my characters can slot one skill and do the questing naked. Two or Three AOE spams and any mob of 3 is dead.

Want to know why groupfinder DPS is atrocious? Because nothing in overland requires even the semblance of a build, or more importantly, a proper rotation. Outside of a solo world boss, there is no overland content where I can get through a full rotation one time. They are dead before they hit the floor. At one point, we used Mammoths as Target dummies because you could do a rotation three or four times. Try that now and it would be a joke.

This is not a gear or a CP issue. It is the result of ZOS catering to the lowest common denominator in terms of player skill. Overland is story mode, full stop. They might as well remove all hostile NPCs. It wouldnt change a thing.

BlueRaven · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

SeaArcanist wrote: »

if people want a challenge, people need to challenge themselves. thats whats wrong with the world nowadays. nobody challenges themselves!

if you want content to be harder, you have the ability to make it harder. remove all champ points, use lower leveled gear. etc

we all have that ability to make things a challenge.

The “Self Gimp” Argument has been addressed multiple times. Even in the OP.

It’s not an effective solution.

Then they really don’t want challenging combat, do they?

Judging by how the forums blew a fuse when they updated the loot in dragon star, and “everyone’s hard work” was “ruined”, wanting to do challenging combat is not what players really want or they would have loved any excuse to go back in again. They just wanted the loot rewards.

Overland combat is meant for everyone, particularly new players. The overland is not meant to revolve around people who solo dungeons.

At least 3 of the 4 dlcs each year have content that is directly intended for hard core players.

Vet overland will need dedicated servers and balance time spent by developers. That costs $$$ and I am sorry judging by how many people have “godslayer”, there is not enough players to justify the cost.

WhereArtThouVampires · March 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

You need to keep in mind any enemy you engage in during overland content, could also be engaged by a level two or three player with no cp.

What feels tedious to your over powered character with a monster helm and two 5 piece armor sets, may feel overwhelming to a player with a mixture of white and green mismatched armor.

If over land is too easy, you can always make it more difficult on yourself by lowering the power level on your character.
New low level characters with no cp have little means to power up

No, literally any player that has skills on their bar will be fine. I can walk into anywhere in the overland at lvl 3 with NO gear and do just fine.

If you think people, even lower levels, find overland challenging.... I encourage you to find at least 3 examples and feel free to post them. But you won't.

I've had over 7 friends try to get into this game. And every single one of them quit because there was no challenge to the world. There's literally no reason to *want* to level or do stories.

Stop trying to pretend it's a CP or gear issue.

WhereArtThouVampires · March 2021

Vigarr wrote: »

world bosses/dragons are the hard overland content...if trash mobs were made harder then noobs would quit

Nope, pretty sure it'd be quite the opposite.

I personally know people that HAVE quit due to how easy the story/overland is.

Goregrinder · March 2021

WhereArtThouVampires wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

world bosses/dragons are the hard overland content...if trash mobs were made harder then noobs would quit

Nope, pretty sure it'd be quite the opposite.

I personally know people that HAVE quit due to how easy the story/overland is.

I've also known people who like polka music and yodeling. That's not proof that everyone likes polka and yodeling.

Skykaiser_Ọlọrun · March 2021

SeaArcanist wrote: »

the overworld is more than just enemies, it's not the main focus.

You can kill people or pick up quests (usually to kill people). There really aren't all that many things to do.

if there was zero difficulty i nthe game i'd be incline to agree with you. but since trail,dungeons, and world bosses exist. the game already has its challenge from monsters and enemies.

Spamming a handful of static dungeons while the rest of the game collects dust is the problem.

or if you want every enemy to eb challenging, go do dark souls?

We're really going to go down this route?

but this is an mmo, it has pregression

The dungeons do. The overworld doesn't.