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The real problem with combat in Overland
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?
It's not about not dying but about keep going despite the difficulties. You want to go this way? Ok. There is no courage without fear, there is no respect when there is no difficulty, there is no hero when there is no risk of dying.
See, I could now tell you how ridiculous pvp combat is in ESO compared to a real pvp game, where dying matters more than a few minutes of time lost. But it is most likely pointless to do, so I just leave it at that.
My way to play games is trying not to die at all or at least keep the number of death as low as possible - i wouldn't play a game where I'm forced to die a lot by design,5 -
Hallothiel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.
Yep. Have a character on the NA server & oh my GOD it’s just not the same without my fantabulous gear, over 1400 CP points and access to all the goodies I have stashed away.
Combat was harder than it has been since started doing vet trials, even though I have a good grasp of fight mechanics.
(Worst was trying to do writs to level up. Had to buy a potato. Yes, you read that right, I had to buy a potato as had none. None.)
So whilst you may be absolutely amazing at the game and able to solo vet hm dungeons in white gear and bare hands, that is not the case for the majority of players.
But making main quest boss fights harder is a different issue altogether, and one where I do wish they could be slightly harder for the more experienced player. Perhaps, as they are often instanced, have a normal & vet mode?Edited by Hallothiel on March 24, 2021 10:28AM2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.
That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+3 or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).
Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.
Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.
I don’t agree with the idea that engaging gameplay and story are mutually exclusive.
In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.
I would be open to the possibility of having a veteran+hard mode for story for those like yourself that crave a challenge on every and all activities.
I just cannot get behind the idea of making it so for everyone.4 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?
It's not about not dying but about keep going despite the difficulties. You want to go this way? Ok. There is no courage without fear, there is no respect when there is no difficulty, there is no hero when there is no risk of dying.
See, I could now tell you how ridiculous pvp combat is in ESO compared to a real pvp game, where dying matters more than a few minutes of time lost. But it is most likely pointless to do, so I just leave it at that.
My way to play games is trying not to die at all or at least keep the number of death as low as possible - i wouldn't play a game where I'm forced to die a lot by design,
Oh it's my way also, but I don't want it to be handed me for free. I want to work for it, I want to outsmart the difficulties both in PvE and PvP, I want to feel that I'm doing something meaningful for the story.
Why every movie we watch doesn't look like ESO combat? Why we don't see in movies from MCU, DC, movies like Godzilla etc. etc. fights that end in 5s where hero arrives, hits main vilain 2 times and boom, we have ending. Because it would be boring, dull and not fun at all. But thats how ESO stories look like.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge5 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.
That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+3 or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).
Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.
Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.
I don’t agree with the idea that engaging gameplay and story are mutually exclusive.
In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.
I would be open to the possibility of having a veteran+hard mode for story for those like yourself that crave a challenge on every and all activities.
I just cannot get behind the idea of making it so for everyone.
Then give us Hard Mode/Vet zones and be done with it. Nobody would force anyone to play there. Everyone is happy.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge6 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »
I mean even other MMORPGs have risk in death.
Part of the reason WoW Classic became so popular was that it actually had challenge in Overland content. You died all the time
I’ll be frank I think 1Tam over-corrected a bit. Remember Doshia?
Nope, I didn't start playing ESO until after ESO:Morrowind came out, so I don't know what it was like before that.
SeaGtGruff wrote: »
Ever played WoW, Terra, AoC, Aion or any other MMORPG? Dying in ESO is extremly rare when compared to those games and it gives no punishment at all. No debuf, no exp loss, nothing.
Nope, ESO is my first and only MMORPG, so I can't compare ESO with any other MMORPGs. I'm assuming that none of them have any "permanent death," since I don't see how there could be any reasonable way to implement a "save/restore" mechanic in an MMORPG, but I don't know things work in other MMORPGs.
Dying in ESO is not "extremely rare" for all players, but naturally that depends on the content they're attempting. It's true that most quests are easy for anyone with a bit of experience at playing the game, but presumably ZOS wants the quests to be doable for even rank beginners, since new players are usually thrust into the newest content-- based on which edition of the game they bought (base game, base+Morrowind, Summerset, Elsweyr, etc.)-- at least until the upcoming change where we'll get a "common tutorial" (whatever that means) followed by our choice of starting zone.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!2 -
ApoAlaia✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.
That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+3 or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).
Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.
Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.
I don’t agree with the idea that engaging gameplay and story are mutually exclusive.
In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.
I would be open to the possibility of having a veteran+hard mode for story for those like yourself that crave a challenge on every and all activities.
I just cannot get behind the idea of making it so for everyone.
Then give us Hard Mode/Vet zones and be done with it. Nobody would force anyone to play there. Everyone is happy.
With the touted new servers coming into service there may be headroom for more instancing so who knows, it might even be already on the cards.
To keep the semblance of fairness going there could be rewards exclusive to veteran like is the case with the rest of the content that entertains the mode.2 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The main point of such threads:
We want to travel to locations! We want to complete interesting tasks and receive good rewards. We do not want to wait for our friends to be free to go with them to the dungeons or wait for rt. We want to get out of town and have an adventure.
Solo world boss battles look good right now, but the rewards aren't worth it because they were created for the zerg.
Craglorn after one tamriel was ideal for solo play at first. It was not that difficult already, but it was still fun. It was the best time for me in eso when I was farming Yokudan motif solo. Murkmire was also supposed to be an adventure zone ...
ZoS will not make such a big change to old locations. But I really want zos to start making new adventure zones in the end.Edited by Parasaurolophus on March 24, 2021 11:25AMPC/EU2 -
SeaGtGruff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Personally, I hope that if some sort of player-controlled difficulty setting is ever added, there is NOT any special increase in rewards, other than perhaps the amount of gold as is currently the case based on character level, and/or the number and/or quality of gear as is currently possible with certain CP perks. But please, no "special" gear that is only obtainable by playing at higher difficulty settings.
To be clear, I couldn't care less about that for myself, because I don't grind for gear or achievements, and would not care one way or the other whether I did or did not manage to acquire some "special prize." But I absolutely cringe at the thought of all the carrying on that would occur in the forums as one group of players bragged about how they had gotten some "special" bit of loot, and another group of players whined about how that "special" bit of loot isn't available to people who play ESO at the default difficulty setting. Save me from that nightmare scenario, please!
It does seem interesting to me that whenever this topic of how easy overland content is, and how mind-numbingly boring it is, it's always presented as being nothing more than a reasonable request to keep "mildly competent" players challenged abd engaged, but it inevitably turns into a request for increased or "special" loot rewards.
Personally, I think the idea of a difficulty slider or setting would be nice if it could be implemented without messing anything up, especially for group content. And after all, some of the other ES games have difficulty settings, so it's something that TES players might expect to see in ESO as well. But AFAIK, playing other ES games at higher or lower difficulty settings doesn't grant or deny "special" loot rewards, aside from perhaps gaining more or less XP, gold, and loot as determined by the number and levels of enemies fought.I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!5 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SeaGtGruff wrote: »Personally, I hope that if some sort of player-controlled difficulty setting is ever added, there is NOT any special increase in rewards, other than perhaps the amount of gold as is currently the case based on character level, and/or the number and/or quality of gear as is currently possible with certain CP perks. But please, no "special" gear that is only obtainable by playing at higher difficulty settings.
To be clear, I couldn't care less about that for myself, because I don't grind for gear or achievements, and would not care one way or the other whether I did or did not manage to acquire some "special prize." But I absolutely cringe at the thought of all the carrying on that would occur in the forums as one group of players bragged about how they had gotten some "special" bit of loot, and another group of players whined about how that "special" bit of loot isn't available to people who play ESO at the default difficulty setting. Save me from that nightmare scenario, please!
It does seem interesting to me that whenever this topic of how easy overland content is, and how mind-numbingly boring it is, it's always presented as being nothing more than a reasonable request to keep "mildly competent" players challenged abd engaged, but it inevitably turns into a request for increased or "special" loot rewards.
Personally, I think the idea of a difficulty slider or setting would be nice if it could be implemented without messing anything up, especially for group content. And after all, some of the other ES games have difficulty settings, so it's something that TES players might expect to see in ESO as well. But AFAIK, playing other ES games at higher or lower difficulty settings doesn't grant or deny "special" loot rewards, aside from perhaps gaining more or less XP, gold, and loot as determined by the number and levels of enemies fought.
Why should players who are not keen to conquer more hard content have a better gear?
PC/EU3 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.
That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+3 or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).
Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.
Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.
I don’t agree with the idea that engaging gameplay and story are mutually exclusive.
In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.
I would be open to the possibility of having a veteran+hard mode for story for those like yourself that crave a challenge on every and all activities.
I just cannot get behind the idea of making it so for everyone.
Then give us Hard Mode/Vet zones and be done with it. Nobody would force anyone to play there. Everyone is happy.
Just wait for the counter arguments that were listed before.exeeter702 wrote: »It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.
The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.
You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.
When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.
(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)
That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.
(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)
When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.
Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.
It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.
Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.
Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.
I disagree with your analysis, but agree with you the overland is a bore. I believe their lack of health is a factor, because it enables players to just overwhelm them with offense so they never really get the chance fight back, thus players never have to consider defensive strategies. That's why the only interesting fights on the landscape is World Bosses, because they can actually live long enough to make you have to use your skills to stay alive.
What the game needs is a Veteran version of each zone where the enemy's health and offenses are buffed to where they can actually pose a real threat to an experienced player. Because as things are now, they are just nuisances, like flies buzzing around you need to swat.
The general rebuttal to this suggestion tends to go one of 3 ways, or all of them really..
1. "You separate the player base which is counter to the goals of one tamriel"
2. "That is development resource intensive for little payoff"
3. "Craglorn already demonstrated this would be a failure"
And my general response to those are as follows
1. Rich lambert literally said that playing with other players can be scary and that the companion system is in part being added to allow solo players are more pleasant experience and to serve as a potential on ramp for grouping if they so chose. This is literally them creating a system to further incentivize casual solo player isolation. They welcome it ffs. So the idea that zos would be concerned about dividing the players for overland zones is hypocritical at best in light of a new system being added for RPers and solo focused players for which companions are going to make the questing experience even easier.
2. The technology is already present. People greatly over estimate just how much would be involved in allowing the mega server to create instances of a different scaling level.
3.craglorn was the product of a VERY, VERY different version of ESO. Full stop. It is in no way applicable to the current experience that max / high level players generally have and for what incentives exist today for desiring to complete overland content in the first place.
Edited by Iccotak on March 24, 2021 11:42AM0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me, going through overland content on my first character, I wasn't complaining about it being too easy. I was wanting to get to L50 and CP 160 as quickly as possible while still enjoying the story, so I had no interest in dragging out the fights. Now, overland quests are simply a quick way to rack up XP while leveling up new characters, so again, I have no interest in dragging out the fights. When I want a challenge, I go solo a dungeon or world boss or go into Cyrodill for some AP.
EDIT: Going through some overland content just today to level up another character reminded me of the root problem - I get maybe 20K XP finishing a quest. I was getting maybe 200 XP killing the enemies, with a 50 percent XP scroll. With that little XP for killing, why would I want to drag it out? If the XP for killing enemies were higher, then maybe I would have more interest in fighting them instead of just breezing through them to get to the XP for finishing the quest. In other words, I'm not interested in making overland content more time consuming unless the XP for killing the mobs that stand in your way of finishing the quest is significantly boosted.
XP is one thing certainly, but quite often when this subject comes up it turns out that the players calling for more challenging "veteran" overland content aren't actually looking for challenging combat or even more XP, they're wanting scaled up rewards.6 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭For me, going through overland content on my first character, I wasn't complaining about it being too easy. I was wanting to get to L50 and CP 160 as quickly as possible while still enjoying the story, so I had no interest in dragging out the fights. Now, overland quests are simply a quick way to rack up XP while leveling up new characters, so again, I have no interest in dragging out the fights. When I want a challenge, I go solo a dungeon or world boss or go into Cyrodill for some AP.
EDIT: Going through some overland content just today to level up another character reminded me of the root problem - I get maybe 20K XP finishing a quest. I was getting maybe 200 XP killing the enemies, with a 50 percent XP scroll. With that little XP for killing, why would I want to drag it out? If the XP for killing enemies were higher, then maybe I would have more interest in fighting them instead of just breezing through them to get to the XP for finishing the quest. In other words, I'm not interested in making overland content more time consuming unless the XP for killing the mobs that stand in your way of finishing the quest is significantly boosted.
XP is one thing certainly, but quite often when this subject comes up it turns out that the players calling for more challenging "veteran" overland content aren't actually looking for challenging combat or even more XP, they're wanting scaled up rewards.
Ah yes the infamous counter argument that takes one aspect of a few and proceeds to generalize everyone as greedy monsters who aren’t honest about their intentions.
Couldn’t possibly be that they ALSO find challenge and/or engaging mechanics Fun.
Sure let’s forget everyone else who describes how let down they are by the story gameplay experience and just paint them all as loot hoarders - while conveniently also omitting that All activities in this game are centered around incentive.
The reward given is appropriate to the difficulty of that activity.
I don’t have a solution but I’m not going to ask ZOS to create a whole new game mode with no incentive for players to play it
Because not everyone is motivated by only challenge, plenty do it for reward. No one is pretending otherwise.
Just like any activity, give various reasons for players to participate.Edited by Iccotak on March 24, 2021 12:01PM6 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For me, going through overland content on my first character, I wasn't complaining about it being too easy. I was wanting to get to L50 and CP 160 as quickly as possible while still enjoying the story, so I had no interest in dragging out the fights. Now, overland quests are simply a quick way to rack up XP while leveling up new characters, so again, I have no interest in dragging out the fights. When I want a challenge, I go solo a dungeon or world boss or go into Cyrodill for some AP.
EDIT: Going through some overland content just today to level up another character reminded me of the root problem - I get maybe 20K XP finishing a quest. I was getting maybe 200 XP killing the enemies, with a 50 percent XP scroll. With that little XP for killing, why would I want to drag it out? If the XP for killing enemies were higher, then maybe I would have more interest in fighting them instead of just breezing through them to get to the XP for finishing the quest. In other words, I'm not interested in making overland content more time consuming unless the XP for killing the mobs that stand in your way of finishing the quest is significantly boosted.
XP is one thing certainly, but quite often when this subject comes up it turns out that the players calling for more challenging "veteran" overland content aren't actually looking for challenging combat or even more XP, they're wanting scaled up rewards.
You make it sound like the players don't want a more fun game, but just that they are very greedy.
PC/EU5 -
starlizard70ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.
Craglon was the first and only attempt to make overland content harder. And it failed badly. No body except the 0.5% of the super elite players went there. Craglorn became a dead zone empty of people, except for the people running the arena. Players cried for nearly 2 years until ESO lowered the difficulty to what is now. I don't expect ESO to try that experiment again."We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."5 -
Iccotak✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.
Craglon was the first and only attempt to make overland content harder. And it failed badly. No body except the 0.5% of the super elite players went there. Craglorn became a dead zone empty of people, except for the people running the arena. Players cried for nearly 2 years until ESO lowered the difficulty to what is now. I don't expect ESO to try that experiment again.
craglorn was the product of a VERY, VERY different version of ESO. Full stop. It is in no way applicable to the current experience that max / high level players generally have and for what incentives exist today for desiring to complete overland content in the first place.1 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.
Craglon was the first and only attempt to make overland content harder. And it failed badly. No body except the 0.5% of the super elite players went there. Craglorn became a dead zone empty of people, except for the people running the arena. Players cried for nearly 2 years until ESO lowered the difficulty to what is now. I don't expect ESO to try that experiment again.
But after all ... After all, the game was really different then. Craglorn predates veteran dungeons. Veteran dungeons taught us how to go through more difficult content and get into groups. But for questing, it's really better to get rid of the group element. It can be fun solo. Now it's just a walking and dialogue simulator.PC/EU1 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭1. No I'm not ignoring optional instances, okay so they implement them what is the criteria for entry? Can you bring a brand new character and level them up? Or is there a level check? Is it a level check of 50 or cp check of 160? Are the mobs geared to level 50 or cp level? Will you have to have a group to enter? My best friend lives across country I have to wait 3 hours to enter. I really don't think some people have thought this through.
2. Engaging, what type of engagement? Okay you mob says you taunted me so I think I will ignore you and still head for the weakest member? Oh wait it's only you trying to tackle this uber hard mob squash. Take that and come back when there is more than one of you. How hard is too hard and all fights come down to a winner or loser. Did you have fun dying?
3. While yes sticking around is great and no they don't want to lose customers I will say there are more people happy with this games current state than not. Maybe just maybe you could come up with a idea that would make it more interesting? Puzzles, more indiana jones type things sure I can get behind that. But harder mobs that require you to walk through them just to get to that interesting ruin is not fun to me just wasting my time.
This is just my opinion, I don't expect you to agree with me but I do expect you to realize there are people who play this game who are happy with the current state of play. Is there room for improvement sure. But I want to know what makes you think that more difficulty is the answer?
The other thread got closed 🔐 posting this here. I'm not interested in personal motive for wanting the game difficulty increased I want to know why it should be imposed on the rest of us? Don't give me the lame excuse it makes people better players either because there are plenty of us who don't do group content and don't follow the meta. Why would it be good for this game and the people who play it? How would it increase longevity? If it's frustrating people will leave and that's a fact.8 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭1. No I'm not ignoring optional instances, okay so they implement them what is the criteria for entry? Can you bring a brand new character and level them up? Or is there a level check? Is it a level check of 50 or cp check of 160? Are the mobs geared to level 50 or cp level? Will you have to have a group to enter? My best friend lives across country I have to wait 3 hours to enter. I really don't think some people have thought this through.
2. Engaging, what type of engagement? Okay you mob says you taunted me so I think I will ignore you and still head for the weakest member? Oh wait it's only you trying to tackle this uber hard mob squash. Take that and come back when there is more than one of you. How hard is too hard and all fights come down to a winner or loser. Did you have fun dying?
3. While yes sticking around is great and no they don't want to lose customers I will say there are more people happy with this games current state than not. Maybe just maybe you could come up with a idea that would make it more interesting? Puzzles, more indiana jones type things sure I can get behind that. But harder mobs that require you to walk through them just to get to that interesting ruin is not fun to me just wasting my time.
This is just my opinion, I don't expect you to agree with me but I do expect you to realize there are people who play this game who are happy with the current state of play. Is there room for improvement sure. But I want to know what makes you think that more difficulty is the answer?
The other thread got closed 🔐 posting this here. I'm not interested in personal motive for wanting the game difficulty increased I want to know why it should be imposed on the rest of us? Don't give me the lame excuse it makes people better players either because there are plenty of us who don't do group content and don't follow the meta. Why would it be good for this game and the people who play it? How would it increase longevity? If it's frustrating people will leave and that's a fact.
It doesnt need to get imposed on you. There is already a precedent for veteran content namely dungeons. You can simply make it so that you can enter vet zones at lvl 50 with cp 160 being strongly recommended and if you want variance in difficulty of vet zones you can make some harder dlc vet zones accessible at cp 300. A group being required doesnt seem like a good idea since there is a ton of solo players in this game so I´d rather make it doable for solo players, kind of like gearing for vet solo arenas where you have to have damage, sustain, survivability. You can either make use of the normal/veteran switch for group finder to switch instances if that is technologically possible or otherwise make people choose at the character screen so that everyone can choose the difficulty they want with normal as it is now as the default.
If I have fun dying depends on the situation. If I ever were to die in Eso overland content as it is right now I´d just be embarrassed because its about as difficult as logging into your windows account. In (obviously) different games like Nioh/Dark Souls I can have fun dying since it is to be expected. When I do a vet trial for the first time without knowing mechanics I can have fun dying if I play with my group. Getting an unexpected 700k wingslap in the face in vSS for the first time? Hillarious. In PvP I can also have fun dying, especially so if its a good 1v1/good group fight/close battleground match.
Maybe just maybe your idea of making it more interesting doesnt make it more interesting for everyone? Personally I dont care for puzzles at all and they are just wasting my time. Doesnt mean that you cant ask for more puzzles or that Zos should never make puzzles again.
There is few things that I care less about than you becoming a better player or not as long as you dont join me in vet group content. It would increase longevity for those that are bored of the overland difficulty and dont do some of the new story content because of that. Keeping those players in the game is good for the game and these players having a more positive experience is good for them. Again it doesnt need to get omposed on you. If it is frustrating for people they can just stay in normal or if they absolutely have to do vet use that frustration as an incentive to become capable of doing vet difficulty.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
beadabow✭✭✭When I started playing ESO- back in 2015, I struggled fighting overland monsters, and would die repeatedly to delve bosses. Not afraid to admit it, because it's good to remember what it was like being brand new to the game. So even though overland is one-shot everything now, I remember when I was the one getting killed in one or two shots...Overland, I think, was designed for new players. Evidenced by the tutorial-like way the quests guide you through leveling and sets.
I keep my interest by developing characters, and making challenges for myself. Trying to solo a HM vet dungeon for example. There are plenty of challenges in the game still, and not all of them involve combat situations (pickpocket 1,000,000 gold). It's just a matter of imagining them.5 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »1. No I'm not ignoring optional instances, okay so they implement them what is the criteria for entry? Can you bring a brand new character and level them up? Or is there a level check? Is it a level check of 50 or cp check of 160? Are the mobs geared to level 50 or cp level? Will you have to have a group to enter? My best friend lives across country I have to wait 3 hours to enter. I really don't think some people have thought this through.
2. Engaging, what type of engagement? Okay you mob says you taunted me so I think I will ignore you and still head for the weakest member? Oh wait it's only you trying to tackle this uber hard mob squash. Take that and come back when there is more than one of you. How hard is too hard and all fights come down to a winner or loser. Did you have fun dying?
3. While yes sticking around is great and no they don't want to lose customers I will say there are more people happy with this games current state than not. Maybe just maybe you could come up with a idea that would make it more interesting? Puzzles, more indiana jones type things sure I can get behind that. But harder mobs that require you to walk through them just to get to that interesting ruin is not fun to me just wasting my time.
This is just my opinion, I don't expect you to agree with me but I do expect you to realize there are people who play this game who are happy with the current state of play. Is there room for improvement sure. But I want to know what makes you think that more difficulty is the answer?
The other thread got closed 🔐 posting this here. I'm not interested in personal motive for wanting the game difficulty increased I want to know why it should be imposed on the rest of us? Don't give me the lame excuse it makes people better players either because there are plenty of us who don't do group content and don't follow the meta. Why would it be good for this game and the people who play it? How would it increase longevity? If it's frustrating people will leave and that's a fact.
It doesnt need to get imposed on you. There is already a precedent for veteran content namely dungeons. You can simply make it so that you can enter vet zones at lvl 50 with cp 160 being strongly recommended and if you want variance in difficulty of vet zones you can make some harder dlc vet zones accessible at cp 300. A group being required doesnt seem like a good idea since there is a ton of solo players in this game so I´d rather make it doable for solo players, kind of like gearing for vet solo arenas where you have to have damage, sustain, survivability. You can either make use of the normal/veteran switch for group finder to switch instances if that is technologically possible or otherwise make people choose at the character screen so that everyone can choose the difficulty they want with normal as it is now as the default.
If I have fun dying depends on the situation. If I ever were to die in Eso overland content as it is right now I´d just be embarrassed because its about as difficult as logging into your windows account. In (obviously) different games like Nioh/Dark Souls I can have fun dying since it is to be expected. When I do a vet trial for the first time without knowing mechanics I can have fun dying if I play with my group. Getting an unexpected 700k wingslap in the face in vSS for the first time? Hillarious. In PvP I can also have fun dying, especially so if its a good 1v1/good group fight/close battleground match.
Maybe just maybe your idea of making it more interesting doesnt make it more interesting for everyone? Personally I dont care for puzzles at all and they are just wasting my time. Doesnt mean that you cant ask for more puzzles or that Zos should never make puzzles again.
There is few things that I care less about than you becoming a better player or not as long as you dont join me in vet group content. It would increase longevity for those that are bored of the overland difficulty and dont do some of the new story content because of that. Keeping those players in the game is good for the game and these players having a more positive experience is good for them. Again it doesnt need to get omposed on you. If it is frustrating for people they can just stay in normal or if they absolutely have to do vet use that frustration as an incentive to become capable of doing vet difficulty.
There are people in this thread asking for change to overland and some are asking for a slider or different instance. Which one do people want? People are saying it makes people better players so if it's not being imposed why worry about what others do? Will it be used as a way to gate content from people? Oh you didn't do this you can't run this with our group? Can you see where I'm going? No one is specifying exactly what they want. Craglorn and yes I'm going there, didn't work because people didn't like it it was a dead zone. It's like people who ask for this want a whole separate game with increased difficulty. They made one tramiel for a reason. Why fracture the player base more. To me this is the age old problem of people rushing to the end game with no thought at all about what they will do when they get there and then get bored. My age is showing but it's like a child gobbling all their candy and then demanding their sibling share because they don't have any more. Sorry it's truly how I see it. Look I understand wanting a challenge but some want the whole thing changed and that is imposing on the rest of us. I want to know why changing the difficulty will benefit this game in terms of longevity and why? There is a fine line between fun and frustration what's fun for you may not be fun for me.4 -
ghost_bg_ESO✭✭✭✭I will put just an idea here:
"Cadwell - Titanium"
Includes all quests from character's main zone + silver and gold (+ side quests).
When accepted character gets penalty on health, magica, stamina, damage etc. Applies for all overland and quests from it, until character disables it - stopping with this quests; gets quest outside them as pledge, pvp ect.
"CT" goes as separate category as silver and gold but includes as notes current quests and side quests character does with that penalty.
Rewards: same as before but character gets 10% experience buff when questing under "CT"
4 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭overland combat just isn't made to be difficult. I don't think any mmo's most basic of overworld enemies are difficult. it's the bosses/dungeons that are difficult. I don't think changing them would be good either. they would be too strong vs newbies then. and giving them new tactics i see to be pointless also. they die too fast to use them. evengiving them more hp to remedy that would be bad. the entire game would be more so dps focused. we'd see less and less tanks. which is already a problem in eso today.2
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Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Overland is fine, new players are still struggling with it!
Besides, every experienced player always runs through everything anyways. Annoying!!!! Especially in delves and public dungeons.
Maybe no longer let regular mobs in overland, in delves, and in public dungeons aggro when above 1k CP unless attacked(excluding bosses). This way both high and low level players get what they want. High level players are not stopped by mobs, and low level players do not find empy dungeons/delves/overland because some player dragged all mobs away. (Maybe make this a toggle, so players who do like to kill everything can still do so)Edited by Sarannah on March 24, 2021 2:07PM4 -
LalMirchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭A simple solution could be a scroll the reduces the players power.
Perhaps a scroll with different degrees of nerfing (20% ~80%?).
This would not necessitate major changes to the game as the effect would be individual.3 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
There are people in this thread asking for change to overland and some are asking for a slider or different instance. Which one do people want? People are saying it makes people better players so if it's not being imposed why worry about what others do? Will it be used as a way to gate content from people? Oh you didn't do this you can't run this with our group? Can you see where I'm going? No one is specifying exactly what they want. Craglorn and yes I'm going there, didn't work because people didn't like it it was a dead zone. It's like people who ask for this want a whole separate game with increased difficulty. They made one tramiel for a reason. Why fracture the player base more. To me this is the age old problem of people rushing to the end game with no thought at all about what they will do when they get there and then get bored. My age is showing but it's like a child gobbling all their candy and then demanding their sibling share because they don't have any more. Sorry it's truly how I see it. Look I understand wanting a challenge but some want the whole thing changed and that is imposing on the rest of us. I want to know why changing the difficulty will benefit this game in terms of longevity and why? There is a fine line between fun and frustration what's fun for you may not be fun for me.
Yes there are people asking for different things. So what? People will always have different ideas and always want different things. For me the way via an optional slider would be the best since no one gets forced to do anything and nothing gets imposed on anyone but people that want more of a challenge can get one.
Who knows if it will be used to gate people from content. Some people might use it that way. Some people also use dps parses to gate people from content. Do we delete all target dummies now? I find the idea of not doing something because a minority might use it for something bad quite silly to be frank. If a vet trial guild would say you need to complete this vet overland content to be allowed into their group, well first of all there is many more groups available who dont say so so you dont need to join this particular group if you dont want to. Second if you want do do vet trials doing vet overland shouldnt be an issue since making it more difficult than vet trials would be pretty unrealistic. So instead of parsing for 1 hour you spend 1 hour doing thing X, dont see the problem here.
Craglorn was in a period where we already had hard overland content and one of the big reasons it flopped was that it forced grouping, every encounter was made with a group of 4 in mind. Quests needed multiple people to progress so even if you managed to win the very difficult fights alone you would still be gated since you alone could not proceed. As someone that actually did this solo I can tell you it sucked.
About rushing to endgame. Well I started doing PvE endgame around thieves guild and started playing around launch. Did I rush into endgame? When I started endgame I was pretty much done with all overland content, should I just have quit until new content comes around instead of starting endgame as to not spoil my experience? I shouldnt have to in my opinion.
You even say some want to. Why do you apply this some to all? Many people want a solution that does not impose on anybody what does some not wanting that have to do with it?
Adding an optional, more challenging difficulty will make overland content appealing to a group of people, without taking away something from the rest, which will benefit the game in terms of longevity. Quite simple really.
But you are right, whats fun for you might not be fun for me. Case in point current overland content. You and many others may have fun doing it. I and many others dont. Adding an additional, optional, more challenging version wouldnt take away from your fun and it might just add to mine. Dont see the problem.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
Alurria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am not challenging your right to have fun at all, I am challenging exactly what it is people want. I appreciate you don't want to impose your idea of fun on me. Great! But there are others in this thread who have suggested otherwise. I am asking what is changing the difficulty going to do to overland for the longevity of the game. After asking this you tell me you want a instanced or slider. Okay that's great but then again it fractures the player base. You want a harder zone for adventures okay good idea. But changing the whole base game seems to be what some are asking. Is Zos suppose to run a shadow instance of the whole world but harder difficulty? All of this is cost prohibitive, maybe they should go back to subscription based play with different degrees of subs, normal 15$ hard 20$? I don't know but it then defeats the purpose of one tramiel. I am not trying to hinder people from asking for things but sometimes you have to really look at what your asking. How feasible is it to expect them to make a 2nd whole instanced world when one zone like craglorn didn't work.?5 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.
This, I honestly struggle with overland on new characters and with my sad 300 CP, I can't imagine what no CP is like, without knowing much about the game and such.Hoping for more playable races6 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭I am not challenging your right to have fun at all, I am challenging exactly what it is people want. I appreciate you don't want to impose your idea of fun on me. Great! But there are others in this thread who have suggested otherwise. I am asking what is changing the difficulty going to do to overland for the longevity of the game. After asking this you tell me you want a instanced or slider. Okay that's great but then again it fractures the player base. You want a harder zone for adventures okay good idea. But changing the whole base game seems to be what some are asking. Is Zos suppose to run a shadow instance of the whole world but harder difficulty? All of this is cost prohibitive, maybe they should go back to subscription based play with different degrees of subs, normal 15$ hard 20$? I don't know but it then defeats the purpose of one tramiel. I am not trying to hinder people from asking for things but sometimes you have to really look at what your asking. How feasible is it to expect them to make a 2nd whole instanced world when one zone like craglorn didn't work.?
Are you aware that zos already put players into different instances of the same zone? The best case to actually see that is when you invite your friends into the group while in the same zone. Sometimes when that happen you won't see your friend even if on map he/she stands next to you. To fix that one of you need to tp to the second aka change instances.
The only change would be making split into normal and vet instances instead of all normal.4
This discussion has been closed.