The real problem with combat in Overland

Vhozek · March 2021

I have fallen asleep so many times while playing. It's no joke.
I was doing a dungeon yesterday and our tank was running off randomly. He said he was falling asleep multiple times.
That's basically me every time I play. I just hold a direction and fall asleep.

Vhozek · March 2021

This game is solved the moment you learn to step away from red circles and to stagger enemies with shield bash.

SeaGtGruff · March 2021

In my experience, CP isn't the problem, although it's part of the problem. It's really a question of how you distribute your APs between Magicka, Health, and Stamina, plus your set bonuses, gear enchantments, and gear traits that affect max mag, max stam, mag regen, stam regen, damage, crit, penetration, etc.-- in short, your overall build. Of course, that also includes which skills and morphs you purchase and slot.

If you "know what you're doing" (i.e., you "learned 2 play" and "got gud"), you'll find overland to be easy-peasy regardless of how simplistic or complex the attacks of the overland enemies are.

But if you're starting out and don't have much of a clue yet-- and especially if, like me when I was starting to play ESO, you're too stubborn to read any guides or ask for help because you want to discover and learn the game all by yourself-- you're more likely to find overland to be a challenge. It will be even worse if you're coming from Skyrim and think you can just distribute your APs evenly between Magicka, Health, and Stamina as you level up, because despite any apparent similarities between them ESO and Skyrim are completely different from each other.

I abandoned my very first character and began a completely different character because my first character was basically my "this is me trying to figure out this game" throwaway character and I eventually got to the point where I'd screwed him up so much during leveling that it was simpler to start a new character. And even on my second character (who is now my main) it was challenging to get through some of the overland content because I was still learning. When I left Vvardenfell for the first time and started traveling around Tamriel like a chicken with its head cut off, even "simple" overland enemies like bears and wasps were challenging at first.

Now it's a completely different story when I play on a new character, because I've learned what to do and what not to do. Now overland is easy-peasy even on a brand new character with no CP distributed, because CP isn't the problem.

marshill88 · March 2021

Overland is far too easy. I get attacked a lot, but it has no danger. It's like a baby land. I wish there was more challenge in this game, it is far too easy. I'm interested for now but I can see myself getting bored.

drunkendx · March 2021

As someone who recently started playing I'm in no small way annoyed by OP's reasons.

It's typical "experienced player logic"...

OP has experience, new player does not.

OP knows trick to fighting, new player does not.

an hour ago I soloed public dungeon while completing map, it was literal "walk in the park".
As I was finishing it, I recalled that when I started playing I had problems fighting some overland mobs.
And i liked that moment I realized how i improved myself.

if you wanna challenge, find some other game, I love my ESO as casual as it is. And if ZOS actually listens to players like you, well, let's just say I'm gonna stop playing.

Also to those pointing out players get bigger stats when low level:

You forget that's to offset not having any skills (since most are level locked) <- look at second line above.

Vhozek · March 2021

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

No it's not

Vhozek · March 2021

Rukia541 wrote: »

Why you would want more difficult overland, that would just make it tedious . I'm pretty sure its not intended to be difficult. I am fine with faceroll open world and challenging instances. Plus, think about new players, its not so easy for them without CP and broken gear.

I refuse to believe the TES community believes this.
It has got to be the MMO community.
This is my first and only MMO and it feels like everyone is content with Oblivion level combat depth. Just put an arm out in front of you and watch your sword swing in circles until the enemy is dead.

Vhozek · March 2021

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't mind a year after the Companions update, they do something like Caldwell's Silver and Gold being closer to how it originally was by making the zones a higher difficulty. Silver could let you replay all the old base content over again, letting you redo the quests and facing off stronger mobs in the overland. Gold applies to DLC content zones, with an even higher difficulty something akin to the original Craglorn.

I just found out about the companions update. I've always wanted it but just not before a difficulty update.
[snip]

[Edit for Baiting.]

Iccotak · March 2021

Vhozek wrote: »

I have fallen asleep so many times while playing. It's no joke.
I was doing a dungeon yesterday and our tank was running off randomly. He said he was falling asleep multiple times.
That's basically me every time I play. I just hold a direction and fall asleep.

I’ve also fallen asleep sometimes during Overland gameplay.
That’s when I go take a walk to get blood flowing, or just go to bed.

WhyMustItBe · March 2021

I find harrowstorms and dragons to be rather fun and engaging. Geysers are OK, dolmens more boring but they did add some scaling so more elites come out, (but it is still way more low key). That is probably fine though since new players learn their characters on dolmens.

Doing world bosses solo is moderately challenging, with Morrowind bosses providing a pretty good challenge (and DPS check on at least one), and above that, some of the newer world bosses are very challenging if not virtually impossible for the average person to solo.

But scaling in general could be tweaked, possibly with a difficulty slider?

Of course for grinding you would always leave it off anyway because lets be honest, when you're grinding you want things dead fast, not fun.

Mayrael · March 2021

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

I did on NA server (I play on EU). No cp, no gear, bigger lag, no food, no potions, no mundus. Taking down groups of three mobs didn't even brought my hp below 90%. Bosses? Pffff... The only issue I had was a bit low sustain, but it was because I was using 2h sword on a magicka character. So difficult, oh my oh my.

Iccotak · March 2021

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

I find harrowstorms and dragons to be rather fun and engaging. Geysers are OK, dolmens more boring but they did add some scaling so more elites come out, (but it is still way more low key). That is probably fine though since new players learn their characters on dolmens.

Doing world bosses solo is moderately challenging, with Morrowind bosses providing a pretty good challenge (and DPS check on at least one), and above that, some of the newer world bosses are very challenging if not virtually impossible for the average person to solo.

But scaling in general could be tweaked, possibly with a difficulty slider?

Of course for grinding you would always leave it off anyway because lets be honest, when you're grinding you want things dead fast, not fun.

That’s why the discussion of “reward” comes up.

Because the game is designed around incentive. They’re not going to implement a difficulty slider without incentive.

Sure a small population might play it (like myself) because they’d be more engaged but if ZOS is going to get serious in investing resources in this kind of project then they want to maximize numbers.

That’s how the rest of the game works and I seriously doubt they’d make an exception here.

They have to cater to more than one audience.
That’s why it’s a hard conversation to have.

Lysette · March 2021

You guys know that complaining about low difficulty could lead to not upping the difficulty but nerfing your abilities instead, then it will be more difficult as well. Given your complains about the current changes, [snip] not meaning overland difficulty or game too easy at all - because it could end up with a huge nerf of your abilities - [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Mayrael · March 2021

Lysette wrote: »

You guys know that complaining about low difficulty could lead to not upping the difficulty but nerfing your abilities instead, then it will be more difficult as well. Given your complains about the current changes, [snip] not meaning overland difficulty or game too easy at all - because it could end up with a huge nerf of your abilities - [snip]

Logic flaw - nerfing abilities ups difficulty of all content and creates additional imbalance issues between classes and skill lines making to much mess. Incresing difficulty in overland does none of that, way simpler solution.

We shouldn't let go. Why? Because I know more players that lost interest in the game because of boredom than the ones that quit because of to high difficulty. I used to help new players a lot by making them free gear for their lvl, foods, helping them with their builds etc. etc. 80% of them after recieving help stopped to play after two weeks, game became to trivial as most of them wanted to do just the story.

I remember my thrill when I was able to survive more than one group of mobs at the very begining. I remember the beatdown I got at my first vet zone. I remember how proud I was when I managed to adjust my build to be able to actually handle vet zones. The feeling when I could grind whole groups there. PvE bosses that actually could kill me, the satisfaction of finishing the story. It really felt immersive.

With introduction of companions the difficulty of overland could be increased because it's them, the companions who would carry new players through the content. Just give one free companion for every player (without need of buing DLC or chapter).

linuxlady · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Game are meant to be more like an interactive movie where you get to participate in the preordained outcome of your heroes success. If your expectation is anything else you are choosing to deceive yourself.

Lysette · March 2021

linuxlady wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Game are meant to be more like an interactive movie where you get to participate in the preordained outcome of your heroes success. If your expectation is anything else you are choosing to deceive yourself.

yeah, it is more like witcher 3 in "story only" mode - not too challenging and entertaining instead.

Raegwyr · March 2021

Eiregirl wrote: »

No matter what the devs can’t win.
Put 100 players in a room and 25 will say it is to easy.
25 will say it is to hard.
25 will say it’s not to easy or to hard.
25 will say they don’t care one way or the other they just enjoy playing the game.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time” John Lydgate

That would be nice balance.
Right now from those 100 players 70 will say it is to easy.
20 will say they don't care.
5 will say it is too hard.
5 will say it is hard for new players when in reality even new player with one skill and no situational awareness rarely even dies.

Stop saying we want overland to be as difficult as vet dungs. Currently with only crimson as the only defence i can leave my char being hit by 6 overland mobs and it will not die.
No skills, no movement, only the single proc that can proc dmg every 8s and heal me from all that incoming damage without problem.
Overland shouldn't be hard but posing a threat to player if he/she made a bunch of mistakes as for example pulling too many mobs for their build is not a bad thing.
Also, why not applying normal/veteran switch to quest bosses in instances with vet giving a little better loot or chance to drop furnishings? In instances players are alone and they should have a possibility to decide how hard the fight should be

AyaDark · March 2021

Overland is - 1 shot.

But if you do it with weapon you get from quests it is quite fun.

I start to do main quest, and when i change gear on some i get from that quest and loot - its not as bad.

When you go it naked, like it supposed to be it is quite fun.

It is not fun if you are full geared for 3 in 1, you just 1 shot it, thats all.

Lysette · March 2021

Raegwyr wrote: »

5 will say it is hard for new players when in reality even new player with one skill and no situational awareness rarely even dies.

And this is how it is meant to be in a role playing game - you are supposed to not dying at all. And ESO is based on an RPG series and should be playable like this - without to die at all - won't happen, but that is the goal of it - not just rarely dying, but not at all.

SeaGtGruff · March 2021

Well, you can and do "die," it's just that you can resurrect yourself-- or be rezzed by others-- without serious consequences, other than having your gear degrade a bit, getting sent to the nearest shrine (if you didn't use a soul gem, get a free in-place self-rez, or get rezzed by another player), and losing half of your Tel Var in IC. Since you can't save and restore your gameplay in an MMORPG, there can't be any "permanent death" as in TES single-player games.

Raegwyr · March 2021

Lysette wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

5 will say it is hard for new players when in reality even new player with one skill and no situational awareness rarely even dies.

And this is how it is meant to be in a role playing game - you are supposed to not dying at all. And ESO is based on an RPG series and should be playable like this - without to die at all - won't happen, but that is the goal of it - not just rarely dying, but not at all.

Where in role playing game definition you found out that not dying part? No matter if we play Skyrim, Gothic, Witcher etc, dying is a part of experience. Sure you can play on lowest difficulty but even then you can still die. If your theory would be true you would be able to jump from High Hrothgar in skyrim without worrying about fall damage.
Dying was always an important part of RPG experience. It give value to player builds and allows the game to build some kind of stake (whats the point of fighting when you know no matter what your enemy won't be able to hurt you?). You might not like it and its okay, thats why many games have difficulty settings.
And thats why you should have some kind of difficulty in eso too. If you dont want to die, fight with max 3-4 mobs at once in overland. But if you pull 10+ of them, you should have harder time and might pay the price if your build is too weak for that amount of enemies.
Currently in overland you can fight against hordes of enemies with ease (by using one damage skill, one weak healing and not standing in red) because difficulty in overland is non-existing.

Mayrael · March 2021

Lysette wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

5 will say it is hard for new players when in reality even new player with one skill and no situational awareness rarely even dies.

And this is how it is meant to be in a role playing game - you are supposed to not dying at all. And ESO is based on an RPG series and should be playable like this - without to die at all - won't happen, but that is the goal of it - not just rarely dying, but not at all.

Where did you get that info from? Even in RPGs outside of video games you can die. Even more you SHOULD DIE WHEN YOU MAKE WRONG CHOICES. You should die when you build your character in a wrong way. One of the main characteristic aspects of RPGs is CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT which should be meaningful.

Nobody asks to bring overland to level of Vet Vateshran arena, it should be just a bit more challenging, especially when we talk about final bosses, you know the ones threatening to the whole Tamriel, those demigods that drench fear in hearts of us mortals.

SeaGtGruff · March 2021

Raegwyr wrote: »

Where in role playing game definition you found out that not dying part?

I was thinking she must have meant MMORPGs, not 1P-RPGs.

Iccotak · March 2021

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

Where in role playing game definition you found out that not dying part?

I was thinking she must have meant MMORPGs, not 1P-RPGs.

I mean even other MMORPGs have risk in death.

Part of the reason WoW Classic became so popular was that it actually had challenge in Overland content. You died all the time

I’ll be frank I think 1Tam over-corrected a bit. Remember Doshia?

Mayrael · March 2021

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Raegwyr wrote: »

Where in role playing game definition you found out that not dying part?

I was thinking she must have meant MMORPGs, not 1P-RPGs.

Ever played WoW, Terra, AoC, Aion or any other MMORPG? Dying in ESO is extremly rare when compared to those games and it gives no punishment at all. No debuf, no exp loss, nothing.

Lysette · March 2021

Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?

ApoAlaia · March 2021

I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.

That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+0 (not quite at +3 skill level yet) or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).

Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.

Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.

Iccotak · March 2021

linuxlady wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

Game are meant to be more like an interactive movie where you get to participate in the preordained outcome of your heroes success. If your expectation is anything else you are choosing to deceive yourself.

You are describing a specific genre of video games. Like Visual Novels.

Tons of games have challenge that can result in failure and/or engaging mechanics that keeps you thinking.
The whole point being trying NOT to fail.

Mayrael · March 2021

Lysette wrote: »

Well, I try to not die at all - a hero isn't a hero if he/she has died over and over and over again in my books. When I hear that people die several times per hour, where is the hero-part in that?

It's not about not dying but about keep going despite the difficulties. You want to go this way? Ok. There is no courage without fear, there is no respect when there is no difficulty, there is no hero when there is no risk of dying.

Iccotak · March 2021

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I personally don't have an issue with the lack of difficulty on overland. I don't really want to turn every foray to do surveys into a challenging adventure.

That is because if I want a challenge I have vKA, or vCR+3 or even try to do vDLC dungeons solo (stress on the try part).

Overland is where after a point the story happens, which is nice to follow without being ganked by a gang of one-shotting mobs, or where mundane things like harvesting nodes, pickpocket/murder sprees, larceny in all its wonderful forms, dailies etc take place.

Obviously this is just from my perspective, but again the vast majority of the posts are on the thread are written from this perspective anyway, but I don't see my game feeling 'spiced up' by throwing difficulty spikes on my daily mundane activities.

I don’t agree with the idea that engaging gameplay and story are mutually exclusive.

In fact I think that making them exclusive hurts the overall story experience.
It’s really hard to get excited about “The Big Bad” when I know it’s going to be a mediocre encounter.