The real problem with combat in Overland

Iccotak · March 2021

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

The problem is that overland contains the majority of the story continent, but the lack of engaging gameplay undermines the story and general questing experience.

EDIT: like I said in a previous thread

it’s not that people are looking in the wrong direction for challenging or hard content - it’s that making the main antagonists incredibly easy makes them boring, unremarkable, and overall NOT fun. It can also undercut the story experience.

Even if you do nerf yourself it’s still not engaging- just tedious.
Me and other players want to look forward to fighting the main bad guy, not think “Well let’s get this over with”

End Edit

Also notice I’m not saying that Overland needs to be as difficult as endgame content. The problem is not difficulty, it’s not the stats, the problem is that the enemies don’t do anything interesting.

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

Again, I never stated a solution in this thread.
Whether it’s a separate instance or the same, who knows —> But saying it’s not a problem is inaccurate as it has plagued the game for some time now.
Especially concerning the main story

waterfairy · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

The problem is that overland contains the majority of the story continent, but the lack of engaging gameplay undermines the story and general questing experience.

Also notice I’m not saying that Overland needs to be as difficult as endgame content. The problem is not difficulty, it’s not the stats, the problem is that the enemies don’t do anything interesting.

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

Again, I never stated a solution in this thread.
Whether it’s a separate instance or the same, who knows —> But saying it’s not a problem is inaccurate as it has plagued the game for some time now.
Especially concerning the main story

dungeons and trials have some interesting content but are the trash mobs within interesting? Why should the overland trash mobs be interesting...especially when they're little more then a hindrance to most of us just trying to get somewhere. Speaking of hindrance...why do some areas have mobs every 5-10ft? They need to spread them out more, especially wildlife like wolves, senche, etc

Alurria · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

The problem is that overland contains the majority of the story continent, but the lack of engaging gameplay undermines the story and general questing experience.

Also notice I’m not saying that Overland needs to be as difficult as endgame content. The problem is not difficulty, it’s not the stats, the problem is that the enemies don’t do anything interesting.

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

Again, I never stated a solution in this thread.
Whether it’s a separate instance or the same, who knows —> But saying it’s not a problem is inaccurate as it has plagued the game for some time now.
Especially concerning the main story

I disagree with you, but since you offer no solution what's left to say? [snip] So what is your expectation for Zos or microsoft to overhaul all the overland content to suit a few people who are bored? [snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Davadin · March 2021

danno8 wrote: »

This is the unfortunate side effect of One Tamriel.

It allows for new players to go anywhere and do anything, which is great but also hollows out the excitement and challenge of any future overland content for any non-new player.

ESO is the only MMO I play where new Chapters or DLC aren't intriguing for overland content, since I know I will be able to mow through every bad guy without having to pay attention.

this.

took a break of a year, joined back with my well geared (purple/gold mix, couple sets and monster), with ALL the CP and ALL the skills points reset, going into Markath the first time I know nobody can kill me.

Went to one of the dungeon, and a few skills WHILE 2-3 mobs attacking me, take a pot, walks a few meter off to jump a cliff turn off their aggro, and start slotting skills.

Found that I landed on the cave main boss. 3 skills hit and a couple light attacks, got the achievements.

Is the issue simply "too easy"? no. because if they swap the mob to have 3x health and hits 2x as hard, I can still simply walk it off without fearing death. or, hell, even if I die, just respawn at beginning of cave.

There's no "dread" in this game. Fear of going somewhere and being on my toes.

It used to have. I was Vet rank11 (max 15?) when I ventured to Craglorn for the first time and I felt like I'm in a dangerous world.

It felt good.

Now, the only "dangerous" place is outside the safe-zone gates of CP Cyrodiil.

Just my 2c.

Eiregirl · March 2021

No matter what the devs can’t win.
Put 100 players in a room and 25 will say it is to easy.
25 will say it is to hard.
25 will say it’s not to easy or to hard.
25 will say they don’t care one way or the other they just enjoy playing the game.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time” John Lydgate

Iccotak · March 2021

Alurria wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

The problem is that overland contains the majority of the story continent, but the lack of engaging gameplay undermines the story and general questing experience.

Also notice I’m not saying that Overland needs to be as difficult as endgame content. The problem is not difficulty, it’s not the stats, the problem is that the enemies don’t do anything interesting.

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

Again, I never stated a solution in this thread.
Whether it’s a separate instance or the same, who knows —> But saying it’s not a problem is inaccurate as it has plagued the game for some time now.
Especially concerning the main story

I disagree with you, but since you offer no solution what's left to say? [snip] So what is your expectation for Zos or microsoft to overhaul all the overland content to suit a few people who are bored? [snip]

So what, I’m not allowed to give feedback?

I’m not allowed to point out what I think is the specific problem unless I have a plausible solution that perfectly fixes the problem?
A problem that would possibly need a complex and nuanced solution?

Nowhere do I see this as a general expectation of the forums (as threads are also a place of conversation, and often brainstorming sessions) but your response reeks of trying to shut down a conversation simply on the basis of disagreement.

And at this point if people keep beating the horse then maybe consider that a sign that there is a problem.

DigiAngel · March 2021

Ya once you get up in levels agreed...overland is a wash. That being said it's a good place to try out new builds/gear though..least that's what I've been using it for

Alurria · March 2021

I will concede and say yes this is a discussion, however after seeing this topic brought up by the same 5 or 6 people on a regular basis. Hearing the same complaints by the same people gets old. There has not been a overwhelming outcry on the forums for Zos to sit up and take notice. Just the same half dozen people or so. Many people read this forum who never post here I can go years without posting here and just reading. Have fun talking about how boring overland is I'm out.

Sevn · March 2021

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging.

I'm reasonably certain that Overland in MMOs isn't meant to be "engaging" to pro players. It certainly wasn't in any of the other MMOs I played.

This.

It doesn't matter how complicated or challenging they make the overland enemies for pro players, with enough time and experience it will become a faceroll just like it is now because the more familiar players become with this content, especially with the new uber gear that's going to be attached to it, the easier it will be until they are right back here asking for another redo.

He's right when he says stripping down doesn't change the experience, because it's all that accumulated experience that is making the game easier. So what happens when this experience is gained again? Without question this is the real issue, not mechanics. Btw tc, this request is just as annoying as the suggestion to self nerf is to you imo. Though Zos continues to and will no doubt continue to, it's kinda hard for players to ignore the squeaky wheel.

Been playing a new mmo (I take my own advice) for about 5 months now, overland was super tough in the beginning, I mean I was dying trying to take on 2 or 3 enemies. 5 months later those same overland mobs I thought were plucked straight from dark souls are a joke. Not only that for WEEKS my story was stalled because I just couldn't beat the boss at the end of the quest.

This happened MULTIPLE times where I simply wasn't strong enough to pass the dps check and instafailed. Wasn't very fun and you know what's more frustrating than an easy boss? A boss you can't beat and stalls up your progress. Dying to 2 or 3 enemies at a time now though? Nah, I'm aggroing 6 to 8 now and killing them in one combo. I barely use any healing items unless I'm fighting an enemy designed to challenge a vet player.

My point is it would become a never ending cycle that no dev team can ever keep up with and would presumably consume a massive amount of time and resources year after year to keep up. For zero profits mind you.

I mean, aren't they going to be right back here asking for a redo once again once they are uber overpowered and outgrown the current content? If not then why do so now over and over?

Brrrofski · March 2021

danno8 wrote: »

This is the unfortunate side effect of One Tamriel.

It allows for new players to go anywhere and do anything, which is great but also hollows out the excitement and challenge of any future overland content for any non-new player.

ESO is the only MMO I play where new Chapters or DLC aren't intriguing for overland content, since I know I will be able to mow through every bad guy without having to pay attention.

Overland content wasn't challenging before One Tamriel.

Back when you got max xp for being within 3 levels of zone level, I'd fly through silver and get to the rift at like vet 11 and grind vet 14 mobs.

It wasn't hard at all. I killed molag bal without dying the fist time too. I'm sure most did.

I don't think overland needs to be hard either. There's content there if you want to be challenged.

And battle leveling is kinda irrelevant for most new players, as they're running 7 heavy, destro and 2h axe and have no idea what skills they're using. Like most noobs do. Most of them don't look at youtube or here or reddit. They just play. Overland probably isn't super easy for most new players.

exeeter702 · March 2021

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Except that even then it really isnt.

AcadianPaladin · March 2021

I like overland content the way it is. As the OP stated in post #1, it is made for the lowest common denominator. That decision is for good reason because the game needs new players (arguably the lowest common denominator and even players with slower reflexes and disabilities. There is a huge difference between a level 5 character in the hands of a skilled, experienced player and one in the hands of a newbie. Besides, my CP1450 does not want to wage serious battle with every bandit or mudcrab when enjoying the overland beauty of Tamriel. If she wants to get her little butt kicked, there is plenty of content in the game that will do that.

I'm not arguing against OP's opinion because it is a valid one. . . but mine is different and just as valid. I believe the only solution that could work for all players would be a difficulty slider. I'd imagine such an option would be easy to implement if done by modifying the character, not the world. Basically, nerfing or buffing the player based upon their difficulty choice selection. That's been requested for years and I've yet to understand why, after Tamriel One already introduced adjusting the character (depending on level), that the creativity/ingenuity to implement a difficulty slider does not exist.

Jeremy · March 2021

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

I disagree with your analysis, but agree with you the overland is a bore. I believe their lack of health is a factor, because it enables players to just overwhelm them with offense so they never really get the chance fight back, thus players never have to consider defensive strategies. That's why the only interesting fights on the landscape is World Bosses, because they can actually live long enough to make you have to use your skills to stay alive.

What the game needs is a Veteran version of each zone where the enemy's health and offenses are buffed to where they can actually pose a real threat to an experienced player. Because as things are now, they are just nuisances, like flies buzzing around you need to swat.

exeeter702 · March 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

I disagree with your analysis, but agree with you the overland is a bore. I believe their lack of health is a factor, because it enables players to just overwhelm them with offense so they never really get the chance fight back, thus players never have to consider defensive strategies. That's why the only interesting fights on the landscape is World Bosses, because they can actually live long enough to make you have to use your skills to stay alive.

What the game needs is a Veteran version of each zone where the enemy's health and offenses are buffed to where they can actually pose a real threat to an experienced player. Because as things are now, they are just nuisances, like flies buzzing around you need to swat.

The general rebuttal to this suggestion tends to go one of 3 ways, or all of them really..

1. "You separate the player base which is counter to the goals of one tamriel"

2. "That is development resource intensive for little payoff"

3. "Craglorn already demonstrated this would be a failure"

And my general response to those are as follows

1. Rich lambert literally said that playing with other players can be scary and that the companion system is in part being added to allow solo players are more pleasant experience and to serve as a potential on ramp for grouping if they so chose. This is literally them creating a system to further incentivize casual solo player isolation. They welcome it ffs. So the idea that zos would be concerned about dividing the players for overland zones is hypocritical at best in light of a new system being added for RPers and solo focused players for which companions are going to make the questing experience even easier.

2. The technology is already present. People greatly over estimate just how much would be involved in allowing the mega server to create instances of a different scaling level.

3.craglorn was the product of a VERY, VERY different version of ESO. Full stop. It is in no way applicable to the current experience that max / high level players generally have and for what incentives exist today for desiring to complete overland content in the first place.

MasterSpatula · March 2021

Another day, another call to increase the nuisance factor of the nuisance mobs.

Please, no. Overland isn't just for new players. It's also for those of us who can do vet content but also want to be able to focus on something other than combat every once and a while. It already somewhat fails at this due to to too high mob density in some areas and too much CC from trash mobs (the concept of CC from trash mobs still annoys me). Please don't try to make the nuisance mobs consume even more of my time.

Red_Feather · March 2021

How about this!

For every main storyline you finish on a character they will get randomly spawning assassin enemies added to overland exploration.

So a character that finishes more and more expansions gets a more intense overland experience!

kieso · March 2021

I remember when doshia was whoopin everyone's arse lol.

Ergele · March 2021

overland should be made harder or at least there should be vet overland.

80% of the expansions are overland content yet players over 50 can not enjoy it because it is too damn easy.

Tannus15 · March 2021

Personally I just assume that ZoS keep track of various things like how often people die, how much they struggle or not vs delve bosses, how much damage they do and so on. Based on this data they then decide if content needs buffing or nerfing.

LannStone · March 2021

For me, going through overland content on my first character, I wasn't complaining about it being too easy. I was wanting to get to L50 and CP 160 as quickly as possible while still enjoying the story, so I had no interest in dragging out the fights. Now, overland quests are simply a quick way to rack up XP while leveling up new characters, so again, I have no interest in dragging out the fights. When I want a challenge, I go solo a dungeon or world boss or go into Cyrodill for some AP.

EDIT: Going through some overland content just today to level up another character reminded me of the root problem - I get maybe 20K XP finishing a quest. I was getting maybe 200 XP killing the enemies, with a 50 percent XP scroll. With that little XP for killing, why would I want to drag it out? If the XP for killing enemies were higher, then maybe I would have more interest in fighting them instead of just breezing through them to get to the XP for finishing the quest. In other words, I'm not interested in making overland content more time consuming unless the XP for killing the mobs that stand in your way of finishing the quest is significantly boosted.

Starlight_Whisper · March 2021

OP I agree 💯

CP5 · March 2021

Vigarr wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

I’ve never understood this argument, there’s clearly a system in this game that is if you want difficulty you have Vet dungeons, trials and PvP. You even have world bosses in every zone with varying levels of difficulty so it’s not like you don’t have options there. The game simply wasn’t designed to make basic overworld zones difficult and the only time we saw a difficult overworld zone is back in the old craglorn which ZOS got rid of so clearly they’re not interested in making these zones difficult.

The problem is that overland contains the majority of the story continent, but the lack of engaging gameplay undermines the story and general questing experience.

Also notice I’m not saying that Overland needs to be as difficult as endgame content. The problem is not difficulty, it’s not the stats, the problem is that the enemies don’t do anything interesting.

Alurria wrote: »

The point is completely missed by some of you. Overland content for a new player is just right. Sure make it more difficult for new players to play the game because some vets are bored right?! If you have leveled more than one character the game becomes easier for you. If you are just starting out it's not the same. This games difficulty has changed since it started. To attract new players and make it less tedious for current players to level up new characters.

Again, I never stated a solution in this thread.
Whether it’s a separate instance or the same, who knows —> But saying it’s not a problem is inaccurate as it has plagued the game for some time now.
Especially concerning the main story

dungeons and trials have some interesting content but are the trash mobs within interesting? Why should the overland trash mobs be interesting...especially when they're little more then a hindrance to most of us just trying to get somewhere. Speaking of hindrance...why do some areas have mobs every 5-10ft? They need to spread them out more, especially wildlife like wolves, senche, etc

There actually are engaging trash pulls in dungeons and trials, though over time they have been nerfed to boring 'stack and burn' strats even for average players, rendering any uniqueness of the fight null since any two stack and burn fights are pretty much interchangeable at that point.

As for wanting more engaging overland mobs, they provide more memorable experiences, give new players a place to actually learn how the play (basics like blocking and bashing, using more than just light attacks, exc. see the dungeon finder for examples of players who have only done overland), give experiences players enough resistance to actually find the fight worth engaging in, and justify having fewer fights than normal. I would rather have 1 or 2 good and memorable fights than 12 against the same dull enemies who are to busy eating glue than to put up a resistance.

Jeremy · March 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s too basic. It’s not about how much damage is dealt, or how much health they have. It’s the tactics.

The general enemy populace simply isn’t very capable and are made for the lowest common denominator.
- They’re too slow
- They don’t have many abilities
- They don’t have a hierarchy so all of them are equally difficult & dangerous. (a Bear or Draugr are as dangerous as a normal Bandit)
- They don’t change tactics when health is low
- they’re always in clusters of three
- their notice range of sight is very small
All in all, It’s almost a walking simulator.

You don’t have to think when fighting them. Which is a flaw for Overland and the Story.

When you’re thinking - you are engaged, if you’re not thinking you’ll get bored and play something else.

(Edit: the problem isn’t the player gear or cp. I’ve played fresh characters with no assistance from my main. I never use CP with new characters until they reach level 50. It doesn’t help.
Also my main is a tank for the most part with minor changes for Overland DPS.
CP & Gear are not the problem. They never were)

That’s what makes the endgame content the best gameplay content in the game. They keep you thinking and on your toes. Not only is it hard but is engaging and that makes it memorable.

(Edit: that’s what many people love about PvP, because it feels like that’s the only place that makes you actually think about what you’re doing)

When it comes to the main narrative bad guy, @exeeter702 made a great point.

Nothing is more damning to the video game medium of story telling than having an antagonist of a given narrative posses zero capabilities of producing a failure condition to a player. You can have a middle ground that at the very least the game asks of its players to give some effort for a final encounter instead of smothering them with visual spectacle so it can superficially feel grandiose where the win condition requires nothing more than stepping out of a ground effect and left clicking every 1 second.

Do I have the perfect solution for this problem? No.
I am merely pointing out what the issue really is.

It’s not that enemies lack health or don’t do enough damage, it’s that they don’t do enough period. They’re basically neutered.

Making the majority of Overland a bore, and the saving grace is the storytelling - Except when it comes to Main Story Bosses, those are always a major letdown that really undermine the narratives they build up.

Only repeatable activities get interesting gameplay mechanics and tactics.

I disagree with your analysis, but agree with you the overland is a bore. I believe their lack of health is a factor, because it enables players to just overwhelm them with offense so they never really get the chance fight back, thus players never have to consider defensive strategies. That's why the only interesting fights on the landscape is World Bosses, because they can actually live long enough to make you have to use your skills to stay alive.

What the game needs is a Veteran version of each zone where the enemy's health and offenses are buffed to where they can actually pose a real threat to an experienced player. Because as things are now, they are just nuisances, like flies buzzing around you need to swat.

The general rebuttal to this suggestion tends to go one of 3 ways, or all of them really..

1. "You separate the player base which is counter to the goals of one tamriel"

2. "That is development resource intensive for little payoff"

3. "Craglorn already demonstrated this would be a failure"

And my general response to those are as follows

1. Rich lambert literally said that playing with other players can be scary and that the companion system is in part being added to allow solo players are more pleasant experience and to serve as a potential on ramp for grouping if they so chose. This is literally them creating a system to further incentivize casual solo player isolation. They welcome it ffs. So the idea that zos would be concerned about dividing the players for overland zones is hypocritical at best in light of a new system being added for RPers and solo focused players for which companions are going to make the questing experience even easier.

2. The technology is already present. People greatly over estimate just how much would be involved in allowing the mega server to create instances of a different scaling level.

3.craglorn was the product of a VERY, VERY different version of ESO. Full stop. It is in no way applicable to the current experience that max / high level players generally have and for what incentives exist today for desiring to complete overland content in the first place.

I think you summed it up pretty well. It would be very easy for them to simply scale the enemies up to a higher level in one their instances. It would require very little programming and almost no additional resources, and would add to the enjoyment of a lot of players in the process. Why they still haven't done this is beyond me. I guess they're too busy making sure heavy armor users can't use invisible, because that's something the player base was truly up in arms about and spawned daily forum rants. I'll never understand their priorities...

As to the Craglorn analogy - which is used Ad nauseam - I'd also just like to add it was only a single zone. So unless players were actually working on the Craglorn content, there would be little reason for them to go there. That would be like making Auridon the only zone with a Veteran version and then wondering why it wasn't more popular, or making Banished Cells the only veteran dungeon and then wondering why more players didn't focus on just doing that one and instead were doing the others. It might just be they are doing the others because they want to get their quests done, or that there is gear in them they want. Expecting everyone to flock to Craglorn and repeat the same dailies over and over simply because they made it a more challenging zone never made any sense.

Iccotak · March 2021

I agree that Craglorn is a poor counter argument, it came from a flawed time which

A. Craglorn Forced everyone to group, you didn’t have a choice
B. The general Player base was split 9 different ways depending on faction, level, Story progress, etc.

Kiralyn2000 · March 2021

exeeter702 wrote: »

The general rebuttal to this suggestion tends to go one of 3 ways, or all of them really..

1. "You separate the player base which is counter to the goals of one tamriel"

2. "That is development resource intensive for little payoff"

3. "Craglorn already demonstrated this would be a failure"

My rebuttal would be - who are you going to balance that "veteran" version of Overworld for? People who run Vet Dungeons? People who run Hardmode Vet? People who run Hardmode Trials? Top 50%, top 25%, top 5%?

Because if you balance it around, say Hardmode Trial runners, you end up with all the people from "Regular overworld is too easy" thru "non-hardmode trials" saying OMG, too hard!.

And if you balance it around Vet Dungeon... you still have a bunch of people coming here and saying "still too easy."

...I also suspect that, once the "give us something harder" crowd played around with it for a bit, many of them would go back to just playing in regular overworld. Because they might have wanted "a challenge", but they realized that having to stop for that "challenge" every 50 yards while trying to do their surveys / search chests / harvest resources, is annoying and tedious. Not challenging.

Athan1 · March 2021

This has only been discussed another million times on the forums. Overland is noob friendly, if you want a challenge fight naked with your fists. There's heaps of challenging instanced content. Overland hasn't been buffed in 6 years, unlikely to ever happen.

ghost_bg_ESO · March 2021

I don't find problem in overland, more the opposite - i like my god mode...

It is the last thing i want to spend additional time fighting mobs for N-th time when fast leveling another character through quests for couple skill points.

People complaining how easy is overland and how it will be easy for new players too, but at the same time we have regularly posts about players barely hitting 3k as dps in dungeons, or this recent post for nerf transmute from random normal because no one wants to run vet (another example how much people actually search for challenge)...

It is fun for me to solo some boss on newly made character, but i'm geared up with crafted, i have experience, i have rotation at the same time someone who just started the game dosent even know where to go to continue it's quest and runs away from river trolls...

I can understand this post, it will be more pleasurable to use something different on last boss from main quests instead of heavy attack and heal (because if i burn it too fast it most likely will bug), but it seems to be smallest evil for the global health of the game.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · March 2021

Interesting. I make a point of only fighting with stuff its useful to fight with. Overland I enjoy picking my way, at speed, through the maze of idiots and beasts hanging about.

I can recommend a Guar, as the bipedal gait seems to turn very well, and certainly look better while doing it. Broken field running really.

Sanguinor2 · March 2021

Vigarr wrote: »

dungeons and trials have some interesting content but are the trash mobs within interesting? Why should the overland trash mobs be interesting...especially when they're little more then a hindrance to most of us just trying to get somewhere. Speaking of hindrance...why do some areas have mobs every 5-10ft? They need to spread them out more, especially wildlife like wolves, senche, etc

I mean there used to be trash pulls in trials that you had to negate back in the days. Just saying.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 2021

CP5 wrote: »

DigiAngel wrote: »

I'd agree with the OP with one caveat: Try going in solo with a new character, using NO cp. Then Overland is a challenge.

Gimping yourself isn't a challenge, knowing your enemies don't know what end of the sword to poke you with, and only attacking once in a blue moon, no matter how long the fight takes, isn't engaging. Take the enemies with only 1 weapon for example, their sole purpose in existence is to maybe hit you with the pommel of their sword, then back step for a year before contemplating how to throw a knife for another year before doing a lick of damage and re-engaging. Doesn't matter if I kill all of their friends and stand in their face ready to bash them before they get their attack off or let them do it ten times over, it isn't any more interesting.

I agree 100%.Overland is only a challenge with no CP or gear when you are -brand new- to the game and are clueless as to how its mechanics work. And calling it a challenge is putting it lightly- the mechanics of bosses at the end of delves and mobs out in the world simply isn't engaging. When you understand the game, gimping your character's power level does not make fights more challenging. It simply makes them tedious. You're only extending the torture of a fight where you barely have to put any thought into how to handle the mechanics. World bosses are a minor challenge at best given that most of the time there's a number of people wailing on them.

I really, really wish there was a "Hardmode" version of story quests and content where you could unlock and replay a hardmode version of everything for extra rewards and achievements. Something that is soloable if you give it some thought, so not Vet mode, but simply....more engaging to players who love this kind of content and want a challenge but who aren't into stuff like Vet trials. It would be totally optional. Play through normal mode to unlock hardmode.