Serious Question: Can we just delete Stamden's from existence?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

Even in this no proc meta, currently all I find in PvP is gangs of sorcs or groups of 35k+ health Stamdens. Now, rather than asking ZOS to do sensible things like buff other classes so they're on a somewhat equal footing (MagDK's have been waving that neon sign for like years now), can we instead just nuke them from orbit? lol

No Proc PvP is even more imbalanced right now because ZOS thought it a wonderful idea to give a burst damage class (Warden) an easy way to purge DoT's, making the DoT classes you point blank REFUSE to give an execute to highly ineffective in this meta.

Or ZOS could like, you know actually buff specific classes so that PvP may actually be something fun if you think only playing Stamden or Sorc is boring as hell.

[Snip]

#STAMWHIP
#DKCLASSEXECUTE
#NUKESTAMDENSFROMORBIT

[Edited for bashing]

Casul · March 2021

More natural HP, natural minor toughness, % heal.

Shouldn't be surprised most stamdens desire high HP. Kit encourages it.

iksde · March 2021

BuildMan wrote: »

More natural HP, natural minor toughness, % heal.

Shouldn't be surprised most stamdens desire high HP. Kit encourages it.

and before ZOS cutted off some nice buffs from templar and dk to give it into warden like healing buffs

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

BuildMan wrote: »

More natural HP, natural minor toughness, % heal.

Shouldn't be surprised most stamdens desire high HP. Kit encourages it.

Yeah, but every other class currently that stacks health to high heaven hits like a wet noodle. Stamdens, nah because they're bursty.

It's just frustrating when it's a group of like 6 Stamdens just all covering each other on heals and burst. Like, can ZOS at least give other classes some love?

Would it kill them to buff magDK a little, or magblade, or magcro (for PvP purposes)

woe · March 2021

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

Nagastani · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Even in this no proc meta, currently all I find in PvP is gangs of sorcs or groups of 35k+ health Stamdens. Now, rather than asking ZOS to do sensible things like buff other classes so they're on a somewhat equal footing (MagDK's have been waving that neon sign for like years now), can we instead just nuke them from orbit? lol

No Proc PvP is even more imbalanced right now because ZOS thought it a wonderful idea to give a burst damage class (Warden) an easy way to purge DoT's, making the DoT classes you point blank REFUSE to give an execute to highly ineffective in this meta.

Or ZOS could like, you know actually buff specific classes so that PvP may actually be something fun if you think only playing Stamden or Sorc is boring as hell.

Again though, ZOS made a snap decision on a whim and now we all have to deal with this for 3 months because ZOS never considers consequences or balance. THANKS

#STAMWHIP
#DKCLASSEXECUTE
#NUKESTAMDENSFROMORBIT

See this right here ^ is exactly the problem.

If for none other reason, putting proc-sets on the back burner for a couple months is revealing for all of us to see how the class system in this game is actually working.

And ZOS, again with respect, mad love for you all and I thank you again for handing procs back sooner, however, I hope a take away from this experience is class balance is the real work left to be done here. A buddy of mine on another thread was saying this also, class balance first and then rework the proc sets.

Now, in fairness, no one is asking to have the Templar deleted, I mean c'mon. That's not fair. Personally I find Templar class really interesting and I think it's exactly as it should be. So ZOS, good job on Templar. However, I think the dev Team if it ever gets a break from cranking out new content should reinvest their time and efforts into looking at how every class is actually performing and do they have everything they need to perform?

Nightblade doesn't. No burst heals, vigors is not the answer. Nightblade has a cloak but any good player can handle that problem. Mag DK I would say is outdated. Mag DK doesn't have reliable shields like a Sorc, no Streak either and the skills they have are either nerfed to the point of being useless OR more than not, the lag in PvP totally kills the Mag DK because none of the DK skills will fire on time. I used to role a Mag DK and Flame Lash would lock up all the time, Talons worked half the time and Petrify stayed greyed out the entire time and wasn't usable at all. Needless to say, with the nerf to light armor, among other things 2handers can wreck a MagDK like it's no one's business.

And that's the thing, proc sets are like a work-around or an artificial solution to these problems so it doesn't surprise me how ZOS changed their stance on them.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

Oh look, I guess we found the Stamden player.

OK, so counter it?

So as a MagDK, the main/only form of pressure I can get is through DoT's. How do you pressure a class that can cleanse your DoT's for a free cast of a skill?

We'll wait for your oh so wise answer to this.

Seraphayel · March 2021

I‘m indirectly covering this topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565651/two-handed-stamina-in-pvp-is-completely-out-of-control#latest

The issue is not Stamdens per se. The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit. The same goes for Stamina Necromancer - the problem starts when you bring both together.

I said for years that Magicka needs a real execute outside of class skill lines, an execute is a major contributing factor in PvP and very important to influence the outcome of battles. Yet Magicka has no execute outside of class executes of which only 3 out of 6 classes have one.

iksde · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

Oh look, I guess we found the Stamden player.

OK, so counter it?

So as a MagDK, the main/only form of pressure I can get is through DoT's. How do you pressure a class that can cleanse your DoT's for a free cast of a skill?

We'll wait for your oh so wise answer to this.

to add to this ask also for how to counter class which got buffs stolen from your class

iksde · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

I‘m indirectly covering this topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565651/two-handed-stamina-in-pvp-is-completely-out-of-control#latest

The issue is not Stamdens per se. The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit.

but still:

The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit

so still stamden > rest; some classes less worse from stamden, some classes very worse but still stamden have the best toolkit, add to him this 2handed weapon and you have even better combo

Seraphayel · March 2021

iksde wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I‘m indirectly covering this topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565651/two-handed-stamina-in-pvp-is-completely-out-of-control#latest

The issue is not Stamdens per se. The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit.

but still:

The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit

so still stamden > rest; some classes less worse from stamden, some classes very worse but still stamden have the best toolkit, add to him this 2handed weapon and you have even better combo

All Stamina specs are overperforming due to 2h in PvP, it’s not just Stamden. But Stamden and Stamcro are just overpowered in every regard, so they’re not S Tier like the other Stamina specs, they’re S+ tier or whatever.

ArchMikem · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

deflorate wrote: »

I died to a stamden, what should i do?

1. Post on the forums and cry about it
2. Learn to counter it

Oh look, I guess we found the Stamden player.

OK, so counter it?

So as a MagDK, the main/only form of pressure I can get is through DoT's. How do you pressure a class that can cleanse your DoT's for a free cast of a skill?

We'll wait for your oh so wise answer to this.

That's typical. They'll tell you to learn to counter and git gud, but never actually give any suggestions to counter.

iksde · March 2021

Seraphayel wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I‘m indirectly covering this topic here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/565651/two-handed-stamina-in-pvp-is-completely-out-of-control#latest

The issue is not Stamdens per se. The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit.

but still:

The main factor is the overpowered twohand skill line plus the capabilities Stamina Warden has in its class toolkit

so still stamden > rest; some classes less worse from stamden, some classes very worse but still stamden have the best toolkit, add to him this 2handed weapon and you have even better combo

All Stamina specs are overperforming due to 2h in PvP, it’s not just Stamden. But Stamden and Stamcro are just overpowered in every regard, so they’re not S Tier like the other Stamina specs, they’re S+ tier or whatever.

yep, Im not saying 2h is not overpowered

I just stated You just mentioned additionaly just this warden on top of 2h :P about which is this thread

AcadianPaladin · March 2021

Delete stamdens from existence? Uh, no.

Delete stamdens from PvP? Do whatever you want in PvP.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

Stamden is werewolf final form. but it can also purge and use an ultimate. it;s sumtotal healing-damage ratio is on par with ww. it cna be tanky and spanky like ww. lotza freebie passives like ww. except a ww loses to stamden because a stamden can purge ww dots, as well as have the same tier of heal-damage, but have access to an ultimate finisher.

Starlock · March 2021

... deleting an entire class from the game is supposed to be a serious question?

Sangwyne · March 2021

Warden just needs some adjustments, some of their skills look like a power gamer's fantasy. Arctic Blast is an absolute abomination of a skill, a 25% HP burst heal, a 15% HP HOT, an AOE Frost DOT boosted by their 10% Frost passive with 300% the usual chance to apply Chilled, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% critical damage, and activates Glacial Presence for an additional 10% critical damage/healing, ON TOP of being an unblockable, AOE 4s stun. No other heal even comes close. Netch is likewise pretty strong, as it's completely free, grants Major Brutality and Sorcery for 25s, on top of sustain, along with purging 5 debuffs. The Purge skill from Support only purges 3 debuffs but costs 7830 Magicka, Dragonknight's Igneous Weapons costs 4320 Magicka and only provides Major Brutality/Sorcery, and the sustain is comparable to 176 Stamina/Magicka per second, the equivalent of 352 recovery, and Warden gets it all for free. Their ultimate provides damage and other benefits but costs them nothing unless you activate it for extra damage, allowing them to make use of Strategic Reserve better than any other class, and Shalks is a powerful delayed damage skill that hits twice for very little cost, allowing them to burst down players much more easily than other classes. Warden needs to be toned down to allow room for other builds and playstyles to breathe, it's just as much of a crutch as proc sets were.

SeaArcanist · March 2021

(an exaggeration, perhaps. but i'm not too far off base. especially now since ww doesnt have 10k extra resistance anymore.. their sum total healing, mitigations, etc. are all on par with eachother. only difference is no increased damage to poison, ultimate access, more set access, and it can cleanse.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

Starlock wrote: »

... deleting an entire class from the game is supposed to be a serious question?

No, usually my "Serious Questions" are me either highlighting how insane something is, or is me being sarcastic. In this case it was "clickbait-y" to get the conversation going on just how currently imbalanced PvP is from class to class.

dem0n1k · March 2021

You could always, you know, make a Stamden char! ;D

Can't beat 'em, join 'em styles!

Gilvoth · March 2021

thread title:
Serious Question: Can we just delete Stamden's from existence?

my responce:

"as long as you take sorcerer class with them, then i am in Full Agreement and i Support that request."

and "no" i am not joking.
and "no" i am not being sarcastic.
Both of those classes need to be deleted.
just my honest feedback.

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

dem0n1k wrote: »

You could always, you know, make a Stamden char! ;D

Can't beat 'em, join 'em styles!

For PvP I can honestly think of nothing more boring. It's like playing PvP on easy mode as everything is on a platter for you lol.

I play MagDK mainly. And yeah, while I used to dislike fighting Templars for their purge it at least cost them resources to cleanse the DoT's off which allows counter play by running their resources down forcing them on the back foot.

SidraWillowsky · March 2021

Sangwyne wrote: »

Warden just needs some adjustments, some of their skills look like a power gamer's fantasy. Arctic Blast is a absolute abomination of a skill, a 25% HP burst heal, a 15% HP HOT, an AOE Frost DOT boosted by their 10% Frost passive with 300% the usual chance to apply Chilled, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% critical damage, and activates Glacial Presence for an additional 10% critical damage/healing, ON TOP of being an unblockable, AOE 4s stun. No other heal even comes close. Netch is likewise pretty strong, as it's completely free, grants Major Brutality and Sorcery for 25s, on top of sustain, along with purging 5 debuffs. The Purge skill from Support only purges 3 debuffs but costs 7830 Magicka, Dragonknight's Igneous Weapons costs 4320 Magicka and only provides Major Brutality/Sorcery, and the sustain is comparable to 176 Stamina/Magicka per second, the equivalent of 352 recovery, and Warden gets it all for free. Their ultimate provides damage and other benefits but costs them nothing unless you activate it for extra damage, allowing them to make use of Strategic Reserve better than any other class, and Shalks is a powerful delayed damage skill that hits twice for very little cost, allowing them to burst down players much more easily than other classes. Warden needs to be toned down to allow room for other builds and playstyles to breathe, it's just as much of a crutch as proc sets were.

The problem is that it took doing most of the things you talk about to get the class to non-meme status in PvE. Magwarden was the weakest class for a solid year after Morrowind was released, and it's only been a few months since stamden wasn't at the total bottom of the barrel in PvE (like RIDICULOUSLY lower than any other class).

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

LostHorizon1933 · March 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

Amos Burton (from The Expanse) would call it "The Churn."

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

There is: Use Battle Spirit as a way to balance PvE and PvP separately so that a nerf in one doesn't affect the other, but ZOS have said they don't like the idea of separate balancing

Sylvermynx · March 2021

So how would you "delete" stamdens only from pvp, while still leaving my favorite pve class (4 mains....) for me to play?

OneKhajiitCrimeWave · March 2021

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So how would you "delete" stamdens only from pvp, while still leaving my favorite pve class (4 mains....) for me to play?

I leave my quote from earlier here:

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

... deleting an entire class from the game is supposed to be a serious question?

No, usually my "Serious Questions" are me either highlighting how insane something is, or is me being sarcastic. In this case it was "clickbait-y" to get the conversation going on just how currently imbalanced PvP is from class to class.

While I hate the current imbalance in PvP, I have no issues with Wardens in PvE lol.

kargen27 · March 2021

I deleted a stamden from existence because I didn't like the sound of his voice. So it can be done.

SidraWillowsky · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

There is: Use Battle Spirit as a way to balance PvE and PvP separately so that a nerf in one doesn't affect the other, but ZOS have said they don't like the idea of separate balancing

Oh yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic there- it seems like it would be a simple thing to do, right?

Instead I'm looking forward to the day when my magwarden's DPS topples down to the bottom of the pile again b/c the class is OP and The Wheel turns.

I can't even blame people for complaining about Stamdens in PvP though; the concerns are very much valid.

EDIT: I think what gets to me the most is that so many of the people playing stamden in PvP right now are the fotm chasers. I'm one of those weirdos who is Really, Really Into Their Class, so I'll play on my magwarden regardless of the fotm. One could argue that that means that I wouldn't care if it's not strong since I'd play it anyway, but dayum does it feel good to actually be able to pull pretty competitive DPS numbers in PvE.

When warden gets nerfed, people will just dump the warden and move onto the next fotm class, figure out a new obnoxious class, and play that. Nothing wrong with THAT playstyle either, it just tends to not affect them as much when a class gets nerfed.

Seraphayel · March 2021

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Sangwyne wrote: »

Warden just needs some adjustments, some of their skills look like a power gamer's fantasy. Arctic Blast is a absolute abomination of a skill, a 25% HP burst heal, a 15% HP HOT, an AOE Frost DOT boosted by their 10% Frost passive with 300% the usual chance to apply Chilled, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% critical damage, and activates Glacial Presence for an additional 10% critical damage/healing, ON TOP of being an unblockable, AOE 4s stun. No other heal even comes close. Netch is likewise pretty strong, as it's completely free, grants Major Brutality and Sorcery for 25s, on top of sustain, along with purging 5 debuffs. The Purge skill from Support only purges 3 debuffs but costs 7830 Magicka, Dragonknight's Igneous Weapons costs 4320 Magicka and only provides Major Brutality/Sorcery, and the sustain is comparable to 176 Stamina/Magicka per second, the equivalent of 352 recovery, and Warden gets it all for free. Their ultimate provides damage and other benefits but costs them nothing unless you activate it for extra damage, allowing them to make use of Strategic Reserve better than any other class, and Shalks is a powerful delayed damage skill that hits twice for very little cost, allowing them to burst down players much more easily than other classes. Warden needs to be toned down to allow room for other builds and playstyles to breathe, it's just as much of a crutch as proc sets were.

The problem is that it took doing most of the things you talk about to get the class to non-meme status in PvE. Magwarden was the weakest class for a solid year after Morrowind was released, and it's only been a few months since stamden wasn't at the total bottom of the barrel in PvE (like RIDICULOUSLY lower than any other class).

I hate that there's apparently no way to tone things down for PvP, where the class is absolutely OP and obnoxious, without killing something for it in PvE.

Completely redesign Arctic Wind or just remove the damage and AoE stun, this won’t hurt PvE much, but will help in PvP.

Sylvermynx · March 2021

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So how would you "delete" stamdens only from pvp, while still leaving my favorite pve class (4 mains....) for me to play?

I leave my quote from earlier here:

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

... deleting an entire class from the game is supposed to be a serious question?

No, usually my "Serious Questions" are me either highlighting how insane something is, or is me being sarcastic. In this case it was "clickbait-y" to get the conversation going on just how currently imbalanced PvP is from class to class.

While I hate the current imbalance in PvP, I have no issues with Wardens in PvE lol.

Well, that's fine in one way - but you KNOW that if ZOS decides to seriously "delete" the class, that means my pve wardens. I don't DO pvp.

I really hate the whole pvp thing, so I don't do it - and I don't ask for things the pvp cartel like to go away. The only thing I do in Cyro is fishing - and yet people are always asking for things that make my pve life harder, less fun, less satisfying.

And while you might be using sarcasm and "getting a convo going" - my feel about stuff like this is someone at ZOS is eventually going to decide it's a serious problem. Which will then "delete" me.