furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a role playing game, so the point is to 1.) play a role ("role playing") and 2.) have fun ("game")

Sitting with calculators and spreadsheets to min / max the math of the game goes against both of those things imo, because you are neither playing a role, nor is it fun. You turn the entire game into just a fancy set of mathematical equations.

I'd rather spend time coming up with characters, designing concepts, finding playstyles that are fun and thematic, and... playing the role of that character.

XP comes as it comes. I'm not gonna sit here and be worried that XP was slower for the past however many years, and use a spreadsheet to figure out that if XP was gained at the same pace, I would be X levels higher than I am now. I'm not gonna sit here and pull out a calculator and spreadsheet to find that if I use sets A and B, that I can do X amount of damage more than the sets and skills that I am doing now, just because X > Y.

Min / Maxing goes against the entire idea of why we play games, imo.

I read an article about why we play games a week or so ago. There was a long list of reasons, and the list did not have a lot of overlap.

Min/maxing is a big part of the competitive offerings in the game. Sometimes the point of a game is to get a high score. Score depends on ability. Ability is a function of time invested. There is a lot of scoring and tallying in ESO that requires an investment of time, and because I put time in, I care about it. I acknowledge that if you are not that kind of player, that none of the stuff I was going on about would really apply to you, because the experience that you enjoy is not the same experience I am currently focused on. For the first year I played ESO, I was pretty casual, questing and pretending to be my character as part of a story. When I got to a point where I started doing trials and PVP, my focus changed. I paid real money for a target dummy. I started getting into the statistics. Full disclosure: I'm a statistical researcher by trade, so I see the world that way to start with.

But I think we both have a valid "point" to our gaming. ESO provides enough variety and depth to appeal to both of us on different levels, given the number of very different possible reasons we game in the first place, and that is okay. I don't get RP guilds. I want nothing to do with it personally, but I'm actually glad that they are there because it's nice to see that they have a role and a way they enjoy the game, and also they care about way different things than I do which offers variety when they provide input. I get that you don't see why I would even go through the effort to do this to start with. Here's why: it's because I really care about it.

[snip]

Once you have figured out the math, and come to the answer that player math > boss math, or player a math > player b math, then that's it. Game over. If that's all you're playing for is the math, then why even log into the game? You figured out your math, you loaded up your Mother's Sorrow/ False God's / Zaan's, you plugged in your CP's to the peak before diminishing returns, and its over. You've won the spreadsheet. Nothing left to do.

If the numbers are that important to you, then you don't even need the game. Just put the math into your spreadsheet, punch it into your calculator, and done. Game over.

You say that you are glad that RP guilds exist even tho you don't like them, but little do you realize that your way of playing is actually detrimental to RP'ers, or anyone who doesn't play Elder Spreadsheets Online. Because when all you do is min / max the spreadsheet, it creates a power creep that seeps into the rest of the game, and leads to either pressure, if not full blown requirements, for everyone else to do the same thing if they even want a chance to participate in content.

[snip]

This update has problems to be sure, but if there is one thing that I do enjoy about it, is that for at least a short period of time, the meta isn't so rampant. [snip] I can explore a new CP system and explore ways to build my characters and individualize playstyles without having Yolna and Alkosh forced mindlessly on my tanks.

That's great if you find enjoyment out of a spreadsheet, I suppose. You and I are not the same. If you are just looking for the #'s, there's no need to even play the game. But the fact that you do log into a game that uses those #'s shows you know there are reasons beyond a spreadsheet to play a game.

The rest is practicing and mastering combat, and then mastering the specific mechanics. Does that make sense?

And now you see why spreadsheets have nothing to do with this.

If it's still about mastering mechanics and combat, then you don't need the spreadsheets. That can be done without spreadsheeting your builds, and quite frankly, it's way more fun to come up with new ways of doing things, rather than just doing the same mindless spreadsheet build over and over and over and over again

As far as your comment about min / maxers and RP'ers, and everything in between co-existing... I'm not sure that they can. Especially when there is so much condescension towards RP'ers from the min / max crowd, like the comments about "just standing around a wayshrine". There are lots of ways to RP that are more than just standing around in a chat box, such as building characters around a concept or a theme, story runs through dungeons, etc. And RP'ing can be done while questing in high level end game dungeons and trials as well. Afterall, those all have stories for a reason.

But the reason why the co-existence is hard is, as I stated, the min / maxers get these wholly unnecessary builds for damage output that is entirely unneeded to clear content, and use that unneeded damage to blow past the mechanics. Then, in order to cater to that level of power, new content has to be designed with those ungodly numbers in mind. So the content becomes even more and more difficult to clear, raising the level of power that is needed, and limiting the concepts and options players can use to clear through content. It also then intimidates other players, making them less willing to want to even try to join trials, because the min / maxers have staked a claim on end game content and want to gatekeep it behind meta builds and minimum parses. So yes, min / maxers have a negative effect on everyone else in the game that does not play that way. So the fact that damage output has been nerfed in this game, and the 70k / 80k / 90k DPS are now "only" putting out 50k / 60k (still double that is necessary to clear any vet HM content) makes me very happy, because the power creep caused by the min / max spreadsheeters can be mitigated, and now maybe content can be designed for more people to have an opportunity to clear. Not just those with a spreadsheet and calculator next to them throughout an entire trial.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If it's still about mastering mechanics and combat, then you don't need the spreadsheets.

CMX is a spreadsheet. There is no way I could figure out what I'm doing right and wrong without it.

You're using a circular argument. If you want to improve, you need measurable feedback and data. You can't change without it. Very simple. How would you go about mastering combat without data to see how you're doing? It's not possible.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If it's still about mastering mechanics and combat, then you don't need the spreadsheets.

CMX is a spreadsheet. There is no way I could figure out what I'm doing right and wrong without it.

You're using a circular argument. If you want to improve, you need measurable feedback and data. You can't change without it. Very simple. How would you go about mastering combat without data to see how you're doing? It's not possible.

By clearing content?

I did eventually download combat metrics, but I basically just look at it for ish and giggles. I barely ever parse, I don't keep track of my DPS output, or my group's DPS output when I am tanking or healing. I play the game, I put together sets and combinations that are fun, enjoyable, and appealing to me that help me do the job I am trying to do, and I measure them by actually playing the content. If I am struggling to deal enough damage, or survive enough, or heal enough, I can figure that out through playing the game and the performance I am putting in. I don't need an add-on, a calculator, or a spreadsheet to tell me. Console players don't even have combat metrics, and they are able to figure it out.

I have used 0 meta builds (though occasionally an individual meta set might seep into my rotations), I test my builds through use, and virtually all of my builds have clears in loads of end game content, including vet DLC dungeons and vet trials.

0 content in this game requires min / maxed spreadsheet builds. Not one single dungeon or trial, vet or normal, hard mode or not, requires min / maxed spreadsheet builds.

Therefore all these spreadsheets about pushing only 60k instead of 80k, or earning less experience than you were before and being level 918 instead of 1243 all means nothing, because there is not one single piece of content in this game you cannot clear without those spreadsheet stats or experience.

It's really easy to figure out playing the game what you need help with. It's easy to tell if you aren't survivable enough, not healing enough, not doing enough damage, all without a spreadsheet.

I've cleared all of the vet trials, and got most of the trifectas on the DLC dungeons. Without diagnosing the challenges I had while doing them, there is no way I would have cleared them.

Yeah, you can see that you are not doing enough damage, but you need to look at a lot of specifics to really understand WHY you're not doing enough damage. You are also conflating XP grind with DPS. [snip], so I'm done talking about this issue with you. We just absolutely do not agree.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

VaranisArano wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If it's still about mastering mechanics and combat, then you don't need the spreadsheets.

CMX is a spreadsheet. There is no way I could figure out what I'm doing right and wrong without it.

You're using a circular argument. If you want to improve, you need measurable feedback and data. You can't change without it. Very simple. How would you go about mastering combat without data to see how you're doing? It's not possible.

While console players are still lacking in the measurable feedback/data category, ZOS does officially support this on PC with ESO Logs. That's designed for players to measure all sorts of PVE encounters so that if they want to look at the data to improve, they can.

Is that necessary for every player? One would hope not, or else console players are getting shafted.

Is it helpful for the players who want to use it? Yeah!

That's a good point, and I actually find ESOLogs more helpful than CMX. CMX is good for a few things, but ESOLogs is the master of data in the game. I go as far as to give them my money through Patreon. I just wish it worked better for dungeons and other stuff.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I agree. Don’t let the numbers run the game for you because you’ll never be happy. If I let numbers dictate my play then every 3 months would be a test and a new gear farm for the optimal pieces. Every 3 months would be a complete re-evaluation and change in CP. And then where does that leave you? Running a numbers game that isn’t indicative of real player.

I have friends who hit 95k and yet can’t be VMOL progs because they somehow can’t perform right at the twins. Like they know what to do but they just can’t seem to do it. That’s gaming with imperfection.

If you play the numbers game then you’re playing Pokémon like Smogon does. For reference Smogon is a highly analytical Pokemon website that calculated specific attacks damage, optimal move set, optimal races, and optimal matches. The problem is Smogon’s world of Pokemon doesn’t exist within the realm of real Pokemon games. The realm where there is chaos and unpredictability. They try to factor out random chance as much as possible. And they boil the game of Pokemon down to just numbers and battling, completely ignoring that it’s a full RPG with story elements and official competitions that don’t follow their rule sets.

I can have all the water and sand I need to make a perfect sandcastle that I model via computer. That doesn’t mean I actually have the skill to make it into reality in the real world where things are practically applied.

I agree with this sentiment completely. Yet, without proof of performance most endgame guilds won't let you get anywhere near a HM prog group. And yes, I'd rather have a set of people who get along and learn and listen and improve together than a bunch of jerks who can all parse 100K. That's why I started my own guild with a couple of other people who felt the same way. We still have a tagging process though, because I've also seen people come in with vMOL clears who can't do Twins either, or who are doing like 10K dps when they get in there. I don't tell them what builds to run. I just want them to demonstrate a certain level of competence before we spend time teaching them the hard stuff.

I fall into a weird spot where I am fine in regular vet content, but my Breton magplar sucks when I do something like vSS HM. Some of it is mechanics and learning them better, but the rest is that I hit a DPS ceiling with that build that I can exceed on an Altmer magsorc with little extra effort using the same gear. That gets noticed, so I either get booted if I want to keep playing magplar, or I need to switch. That means that we also need to grind alts to stay viable for this content and fill our sticker books to the brim, because the race passives, the class passives, and the gear bonuses all keep constantly changing.

Now I need to grind another 150 CP to get to a point where I can flex my build during a trial to meet situational requirements for the particular fight. That's about 500 hours pf playtime at my historical farm rate, probably 200-250 if I am only doing XP grinding. I'm looking at 3 more months before I get there, only spending time grinding XP. 7 months if I chill and just let it show up, after I've already done almost everything else in the game.

How long does that grinding time period have to get before someone think's it's wrong, when I was already there performance wise two weeks ago? I don't understand how that's acceptable.

@Vanya

Yes, I’m starting to think it’s the end for me. I appreciate your passionate stance on the beauty of the game, but that can only last for so long for any player. The kind of player that I have been referring to as “tourists” for lack of a better term won’t have any of my issues, which I think I have explained in full. For people who want to get to a higher level of vet content performance, the time walls constantly put in place never seem to end. You are still in the "honeymoon" phase. You find joy in a number of activities that for me, are long past their shelf life.

And yes, I was tired of the grind before. When the sticker book came out, I was excited, because it was going to let me get sets that I never bothered playing with. A good thing. When they announced the new CP system I was excited at first. Then when I found out where I was going to land, I was discouraged, because I saw what it was going to mean for me.

If I could do what I wanted to do in the game without additional grind at this point, I would definitely stick around and do the things I'd like to do - farming/buying mats and acquiring new sets to try in endgame content and PVP, buying cosmetics and filling up new houses, filling out achievements, that sort of thing. I'd idly gather CP while moving up to 3600, which will take forever anyway. Loads of room to grow. And probably new content every year, which I would buy to see what's new.

What prevents me from doing all of that with the grind is two things. One: I really really don't want to do all of that grinding or wait that long, and two: it feels like I'm being taken for granted as a loyal customer, if not outright exploited, and I hate that feeling. My guild mate ran 18 different random normals today, over the course of 4-5 hours, so he can earn CP to get his tank where it needs to be for a prog group we are in. He's trying to do it every day. I can't do it.

As for meeting my goals: I've run some trials, and little has changed. What's changed is that even though ZOS deliberately nerfed DPS, the parse streamers were back out there before the patch even came out, posting the same insane DPS just with way different builds. The practical ramifications are that endgame guilds have not really modified their DPS requirements for inclusion in the content that I have not completed yet. Last patch, I parsed 89K on my best day. This time, same build and rotation, I topped out at 77K. After grinding DW and making some changes, I hit 81K today, on a build that has no earthly (nirnly?) reason to exist. I don't really care that my DPS went down. It's gone up and down before (mostly down). It's the reaction to the changes and the need to recapture the skills needed to get access to the content I actually have not done yet that upsets me. If I want to get higher than today's parse, I have to buy a race change token and then grind gear from trials that are difficult to get into without being able to reliably parse more than I do now. I'm tired of doing stuff like that, so I just play on the toon I want and with the stuff I want, and I can get into raid groups, but not into many of the ones I want - the ones where I have not completed that content that I still haven't done.

I also PVP. I mostly play no-CP because it's easier to deal with that - you just change gear to play with a particular toon. Either that, or you pay and make another one, and then pay to level that up, or spend mind-numbing hours redoing Mage and Psijic once again, collecting skyshards, skill point quests, dungeons, when I've done them over and over already. (You pointed out that I have 12 toons so why am I complaining about CP? The math is right in my first post.) Anyway, I was looking forward to being able to do both PVP and PVE without having to keep track of everything and swap my CP around for 3000 gold each time I wanted to go into a CP campaign. Now, that time seems so far away as to be pointless to even make the attempt. Nothing in my game-related QOL has gotten better on that front from these changes. Besides which, half of my time in Cyrodiil is dependent on randomness due to lag, disconnects, cheaters, etc. There's a point where no number of pretty castles and breathtaking sunsets mixed with a deep and fascinating lore that I've been engaged with since Morrowind is going to make that experience any better. Some books I can read more than once, and have. I've never read a single book a hundred times. There are a lot of other books out there to check out.

Trust me, a lot of people are in the same boat as me. Not a single person that I have talked to in my guild is happy about how they handled the CP transition. Not one. Where they differ from me is that they are not yet so tired of all of it that they are outraged. They are appearing to just accept it and move on, because the entire gaming industry has taught them that grinding is an evil necessity to participate in an MMO, and some games out there are worse than ESO anyway. I know that. That's why I posted these data - to put into real world terms what this game in particular requires of us. The most hilarious reaction to that is: "How dare you post data! You're thinking too much!" Guilty as charged, but anyone who doesn't think about it either does not value their leisure time, or the game is so enjoyable to them given where they are at that they don't need to even consider its opportunity costs. I'm not in either of those groups.

Anyway, I think I'm probably past the point of just letting it go. I'm clearly still trying to say something about it anyway. Not because I actually expect results - all of this is purely to make you and ZOS and anyone else still reading this see where I am coming from. I wanted to create empathy for those of us in the same situation I'm in. ZOS will decline to comment meaningfully on the matter, if past history is any indication, and the forum is contributing a few "me toos" and a bunch of "get over its". So, I've apparently failed. But at least I gave it a try. Thanks for your post.

Rezdayn wrote: »

I actually feel like I got a huge buff overall. Doing trifecta vVH and flawless vMA is way easier BUT that does not change the fact I wasted 60% of my exp gain due to these changes.

I normally stay sub and dont play until new content comes out. I 100% that content and come back when even newer content is out. I leave my sub on though....

I dont think I will just leave the sub on in the background anymore... I am not quitting. I will be back for new content and lore. However the company did this on a tiny level with vMA loot and now on a huge scale with CP. They could of easily gave us what we earned but they chose not to.

Their choice. However its my choice to pay a company money any more than I have to if they care that little about my time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saNukVjlLxI&ab_channel=Freetality

i have decided that i will not purchase anymore new content, let alone prepurchase it. i have yrs of content i can replay. i will keep my plus sub cuz it is of benfit to me.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That argument about someone who has finished all quests in the game and only plays one character who is now forced to grind because they can't go questing since they've already done the quests is the most compelling one I've heard. A situation like that indeed sucks and personally I have no idea how that could be elegantly resolved. I still don't think giving out free CP is the right approach to this problem though.
Perhaps ZOS could add NG+ for quest lines where you basically get to press a button, then confirm that you are really sure you want to reset the completed questline, and play through it a second time.

Every PvP player who thinks they can't compete anymore like this can check out no-CP PvP and Battlegrounds.

you are allowed 8 characters without having to spend crowns. just make a new one? of course you still have all the same quests, but if you make a toon that is different than the only one you have, it is a different playstyle. just avoid a tank unless you want to level at a snail's pace.

Zuboko wrote: »

From my understanding you are supposed to be able to do everything you could on CP 2.0 that you could on CP1.0 at your current level. If that is correct, and true, then what does it matter if you now have more levels to play? This is not an attempt to change your mind. This is an attempt to understand your position. Can you help me understand?

Edit: Sorry I am CP 1015 almost CP1016.

Thanks for your question. The premise that ZOS put forth that we are supposed to be able to do everything on CP 2.0 that we could on CP 1.0 is false. One of the reasons is that the slottables cause tradeoffs. That I am okay with as a matter of design, although I don't like the limits that brings to the green tree, which has nothing to do with competitive performance at all. It's just a giant inconvenience. The second justification is that base stats were buffed to compensate for weaknesses in DPS.

I did a calculation which was discussed in another thread on what I'd be able to do with 810 CP in CP 2.0. It's a lot less. There are fewer passives and fewer relevant slots you can fill out. Not only in the blue tree, but the green tree as well. You had access to crafting and treasure passives that you would not get at 810. People in my guild who just crested 810 felt like they took an enormous step backwards. That hurts them. The prevailing wisdom is that old 810 = new 1170 for the purposes of keeping at parity with your skills and buffs prior to the change. The way ZOS presented the change was that "if you could run vMA before, you'll be able to run it now". That's not an exact description of the actual effect on players who just hit 810. What they are saying is this: We're nerfing your champion skills a lot and tweaking baselines, but we expect that even with the nerf you'll still do fine." That's fine if you are trying to redo old content. What if you were working up to harder content? Today our prog group ran vMOL for the third time since the patch, this time going for the focus achievement. Two people had a much harder time of it, they had turned into glass cannons overnight due to the way the tree works, and because they did not have enough CP to fill out resistances that they had before. One of them is leaving the prog group until he can grind CP back up again, because he does not want to feel like a drain on the rest of us. That kind of sucks.

My point about the timeline is two fold: the first is that the amount of grind I have ahead of me to be my best today, as opposed to my best two weeks ago, is considerable. The second point is that even if I aggressively ground up to 3600, it would take me years to get there - enough years that the game will probably be dead or replaced by a major upgrade by the time that it happens. So why penalize me so thoroughly? 15 hours per week, playing relaxed with a mix of activities, will take me to sometime about 3 years from now just to get to 1800. Is that not enough time for ZOS? Not enough room to grow? I still have 1800 CP to go after that to hit the top.

What I thought was fair was to rank up CP linearly from 810 to 1170, so if you had 810, you get 1170 on patch day. Everyone else keeps their current CP and gets the delta added to it, which is 360. So if you had 1000 CP, you'd wake up on patch day with 1360 CP. I don't think that creates a massive inequity.

The only people who might be annoyed by that is the people who already have 3600 CP, because they'd be done. On the other hand, they have a load of new combinations and things to play with that are really interesting. I'd rather have that than the massive grind I have ahead of me after playing for 6000 hours. Not to mention, ZOS built the tree with expandability in mind, the nature of which will presumably be less disruptive as changes to things like sets because they will likely be a mix of a small number of passives and more slottables, so it won't unbalance the game - so vets with more time invested won't have a giant benefit over newer players then, either. They will just have more flexibility. As such, the "catch up" argument does not hold water as justification for he way they chose to implement this. If vet players settle down and just do the things they like, they will continue to do so even if they have more CP. There's just not enough content in the game to get to 3600 the way it is without repeating the same things over and over again. So why make us repeat it in the name of an inequitable "fairness"?