Why Some of Us Are Upset About CP 2.0

BalticBlues

Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

Reason: With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player XP
because CP now costs only half XP, but old CPs are NOT UPDATED:
With CP2.0, top PvP players with CP8xx-CP10xx suddenly are in a mediocre spot.
And many of them are leaving.

If the old CPs would have been updated according to the new XP/CP formula,
then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.
ZOS, TESTERS TOLD YOU THIS COULD HAPPEN ON PTS.

furiouslog

Tigertron wrote: »

So for years and years I was paying this tax with my property taxes. Then we elected this new guy and he removed the tax.

I WANT MY MONEY BACK!

This flawed and ridiculous analogy has been done to death, but thanks for contributing your thoughts anyway, even though it was in a completely unproductive manner.

RedMuse

I have one, exactly one, "whine" about CP 2.0 and that is about the Green Tree and who it's a micromanagement hell made worse by an illogical 30 second cooldown, that not only was not announced anywhere and players had to figure out on our own, but there's no indication anywhere of it and the way the game fails to announce why or even that you failed to swap out CP stars.

Seraphayel

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Flamebait

Okay my 2 cents on this is so far as I see it there are 2 main arguments being made here, probably more that I either don't see or just don't even recognize, but that's people for ya.

There is the argument that I spent time and I want more given to me for the time, which has been done to death and is blatantly ridiculous, also it is completely against the purpose of the patch which is meant to help newer player catch up to veteran player, thus leveling the playing field somewhat. I have argued that not giving free CP is fine, and I still do after the patch even though I would benefit as much as anyone else would.

The second argument is that the time required to reach the various levels is between ludicrous and ridiculous, which I would fully agree with. Rather than argue that people get back some nebulous amount of CP for what they feel they need honestly it feels like they need to do a CP crunch all the way. Reduce the numbers needed to fill the stars by 40% so that you are at full for your role by say 600 CP while allowing you to be able to get the off-spec passives such as healing and damage reduction for a DPS, by around 1200. Then after that everything is simply horizontal which would enable people to still progress while not having an actual effect on balance.

I will still argue that the second option is something that they might hopefully consider in the future, as it would help new and veteran alike, whereas the option of retroactive CP is something I am still fully against. I have exactly what I worked for and them making it better going forward in no way has diminished what I did in the past.

P.S. yes the green tree is a pain, would love if treasure hunter, faster gathering and stuff like them were just passive but what can ya do.

VaranisArano

Seraphayel wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

The math quantifies what Vet players like me have done to get as far as we have...and how far the finish line moved.

No offense, but I've been playing the game. Doing the activities that were fun for me but not really lucrative in exp netted me about 1020 CP in 6000ish playing hours. Under CP 1.0, that was more than enough CP for all the combat effectiveness and QOL I needed to do anything I wanted to in ESO.

Now, at 1025 CP as of this morning, I'm below ZOS' measure of combat effectiveness (1100) and far below the point at which QOL starts to kick in (1800). Additionally, I prefer CP PVP, so my requirements are a little higher than 1100 if I really want to be at the top of my game in Cyrodiil.
I never expected to go from max 810 of 810 CP to maxed out 3600/3600 under CP 2.0. I am disappointed to go from maxed to less than a third of the cap.

With that in mind, it all starts to look a little less hypothetical for me, you know?


In the same light, it's not really hypothetical when you say "just play the game."

It's very practical:
- Which questlines have I already done on multiple characters and which can I redo on certain alts for exp? I've played everything except Greymoor and Draghonhold at least once, so very little of this is going to be "new" content. It'll mostly be repeating old content on alts. My main Vestige doesn't have hundreds of CP worth of questing left, you know?
- Which dailies do I have time for? Can I sustain the materials to run daily writs on one or more characters to farm exp? Can I take the time to run random normal dungeons for exp?
- Am I willing to grind Skyreach (no) or the Alikr Dolmens (hell no!)?
- At what point do I accept that I'm not going to be at the top of my game in CP PVP and go out in Cyrodiil anyways?


You aren't the only person on the forums to suggest that our complaints are essentially an attitude problem that would be solved by just looking past the math/the grind/ the lost exp and just playing the game.

Ironically, "just playing the game" for 6000ish hours is what brought me to the point that I'm sitting at 1025/3600 CP, having finished the vast majority of the questlines and looking at "okay, just where is the exp for these hundreds of CP needed to get back to full combat effectiveness and desired QOL going to come from?"

Kurat

Nice analysis OP, but you forgot one thing, grind is pointless coz cp doesn't mean much and they plan to even nerf it further. If you know what you're doing, you can hit 80k with 0 cp, which is enough for any content.
But have fun grinding I guess lmao

MasterSpatula

I feel like I'm on a dissertation committee trying to read all that.

Seraphayel

VaranisArano wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

The math quantifies what Vet players like me have done to get as far as we have...and how far the finish line moved.

No offense, but I've been playing the game. Doing the activities that were fun for me but not really lucrative in exp netted me about 1020 CP in 6000ish playing hours. Under CP 1.0, that was more than enough CP for all the combat effectiveness and QOL I needed to do anything I wanted to in ESO.

Now, at 1025 CP as of this morning, I'm below ZOS' measure of combat effectiveness (1100) and far below the point at which QOL starts to kick in (1800). Additionally, I prefer CP PVP, so my requirements are a little higher than 1100 if I really want to be at the top of my game in Cyrodiil.
I never expected to go from max 810 of 810 CP to maxed out 3600/3600 under CP 2.0. I am disappointed to go from maxed to less than a third of the cap.

With that in mind, it all starts to look a little less hypothetical for me, you know?


In the same light, it's not really hypothetical when you say "just play the game."

It's very practical:
- Which questlines have I already done on multiple characters and which can I redo on certain alts for exp? I've played everything except Greymoor and Draghonhold at least once, so very little of this is going to be "new" content. It'll mostly be repeating old content on alts. My main Vestige doesn't have hundreds of CP worth of questing left, you know?
- Which dailies do I have time for? Can I sustain the materials to run daily writs on one or more characters to farm exp? Can I take the time to run random normal dungeons for exp?
- Am I willing to grind Skyreach (no) or the Alikr Dolmens (hell no!)?
- At what point do I accept that I'm not going to be at the top of my game in CP PVP and go out in Cyrodiil anyways?


You aren't the only person on the forums to suggest that our complaints are essentially an attitude problem that would be solved by just looking past the math/the grind/ the lost exp and just playing the game.

Ironically, "just playing the game" for 6000ish hours is what brought me to the point that I'm sitting at 1025/3600 CP, having finished the vast majority of the questlines and looking at "okay, just where is the exp for these hundreds of CP needed to get back to full combat effectiveness and desired QOL going to come from?"

The thing is: you‘re talking about numbers on paper. They don’t exist in that form in game. 1100 or 1200 or 1300 Champion Points, in game you would barely - if at all - recognize the difference. Sure, if you’re parsing on a dummy and see that you’re doing 200 DPS more or less you start to feel it then, but ask yourself, would you even feel a difference if you don’t parse in the same situation?

And that’s exactly where the problem lies: imaginary numbers on paper vs. the real feeling in game. What you’re feeling and experiencing in game is not that you’re all of a sudden weaker and have less fun because of that. It’s because you’re taking your calculations from outside and then project them onto the game itself, e.g. your calculation says your weaker all of a sudden in game you feel weaker as well - just because your numbers on paper tell you so. Your in game feeling is just a projection of the feeling you created with all your calculations.

nublife01

Kurat wrote: »

Nice analysis OP, but you forgot one thing, grind is pointless coz cp doesn't mean much and they plan to even nerf it further. If you know what you're doing, you can hit 80k with 0 cp, which is enough for any content.
But have fun grinding I guess lmao

This is certainly false in cp pvp. If you are not around 1400 cp, even at 1200 cp you will be crushed by 1400cp players if they have fingers/thumbs and half a brain.

nublife01

Complaints about this are all over the forums. If you are actually defending these changes involving needing to grind ridiculous amounts past the previous cap to get to a relative good standing in cp then you are supporting changes that are causing tons of players to question leaving the game if not having already left. I quit the game myself after realizing id have to run skyreach at least 1200 times to get to the cp i need to be adequate in cp pvp which is the endgame content i enjoy and frankly my time is better spent elsewhere than this money grab forced ridiculous grind.

Edit: the funniest part about these changes is that they are a blatant pay to win money grab that will probably net lose them income than gain any because people are leaving.

Kurat

nublife01 wrote: »

Complaints about this are all over the forums. If you are actually defending these changes involving needing to grind ridiculous amounts past the previous cap to get to a relative good standing in cp then you are supporting changes that are causing tons of players to question leaving the game if not having already left. I quit the game myself after realizing id have to run skyreach at least 1200 times to get to the cp i need to be adequate in cp pvp which is the endgame content i enjoy and frankly my time is better spent elsewhere than this money grab forced ridiculous grind.

Edit: the funniest part about these changes is that they are a blatant pay to win money grab that will probably net lose them income than gain any because people are leaving.

Lmao you cant buy cp with real money, so it's not p2w.
And secondly, its about time PVPers got shafted. Usually it's the pve players who have to suffer due to nerfs caused by pvp.

Oh, I almost forgot,
can I have your stuff?

AlextheMuspel

Seraphayel wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

A lot of us have fun by theorycrafting rather than actually playing the game. For me grasping the core of the game is way more enjoyable than actually playing it.

VaranisArano

Seraphayel wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

The math quantifies what Vet players like me have done to get as far as we have...and how far the finish line moved.

No offense, but I've been playing the game. Doing the activities that were fun for me but not really lucrative in exp netted me about 1020 CP in 6000ish playing hours. Under CP 1.0, that was more than enough CP for all the combat effectiveness and QOL I needed to do anything I wanted to in ESO.

Now, at 1025 CP as of this morning, I'm below ZOS' measure of combat effectiveness (1100) and far below the point at which QOL starts to kick in (1800). Additionally, I prefer CP PVP, so my requirements are a little higher than 1100 if I really want to be at the top of my game in Cyrodiil.
I never expected to go from max 810 of 810 CP to maxed out 3600/3600 under CP 2.0. I am disappointed to go from maxed to less than a third of the cap.

With that in mind, it all starts to look a little less hypothetical for me, you know?


In the same light, it's not really hypothetical when you say "just play the game."

It's very practical:
- Which questlines have I already done on multiple characters and which can I redo on certain alts for exp? I've played everything except Greymoor and Draghonhold at least once, so very little of this is going to be "new" content. It'll mostly be repeating old content on alts. My main Vestige doesn't have hundreds of CP worth of questing left, you know?
- Which dailies do I have time for? Can I sustain the materials to run daily writs on one or more characters to farm exp? Can I take the time to run random normal dungeons for exp?
- Am I willing to grind Skyreach (no) or the Alikr Dolmens (hell no!)?
- At what point do I accept that I'm not going to be at the top of my game in CP PVP and go out in Cyrodiil anyways?


You aren't the only person on the forums to suggest that our complaints are essentially an attitude problem that would be solved by just looking past the math/the grind/ the lost exp and just playing the game.

Ironically, "just playing the game" for 6000ish hours is what brought me to the point that I'm sitting at 1025/3600 CP, having finished the vast majority of the questlines and looking at "okay, just where is the exp for these hundreds of CP needed to get back to full combat effectiveness and desired QOL going to come from?"

The thing is: you‘re talking about numbers on paper. They don’t exist in game. 1100 or 1200 of 1300 Champion Points, in game you would barely - if at all - recognize the difference. Sure, if you’re parsing on a dummy and see that you’re doing 200 DPS more or less you can feel it then, but ask yourself, if you’d even feel a difference if you don’t parse. And that’s exactly where the problem lies: imaginary numbers on papers vs. the real feeling in game. What you’re feeling and experiencing in game is not that you’re all of a sudden so much weaker and have less fun because of that. It’s because you’re taking your calculations from outside the game and then project them onto the game itself. Your in game feeling therefore is just a projection of the feeling you created on paper with all your calculations.

I'm taking those numbers from ZOS. Who presumably are not speaking hypothetically when they say:

"Around CP 2000, there are no more passives to unlock, but you will have access to Quality of Life changes."
"300-600 CP is where ideally, you should be able to do vet content.
If you’re aiming for a leaderboard CP, you’ll probably need to be around 800-1100."
(My note: PVP requires more CP to fully unlock all the stuff that impacts PVP that PVE content does. Perks like mount speed and fall damage aren't crucial to PVE, but can be in PVP, especially my preferred CP Cyrodiil. If I don't have them, I'm disadvantagedcompared to players who do.)

Also, kindly note that at least some of that "feeling weaker" as reported by other players is entirely intentional on the part of the Devs: "The overall goal was to reduce the power of high end damage and efficiency by 15-20% with CP 2.0, as there is a significant delta in power between many players."

Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563606/cp-2-0-faq



So when I'm looking at my numbers, 1025/1100 looks doable. 1400 CP or so is the number I've heard for best case PVP with all the passives and slottables that impact PVP unlocked, so that looks more annoying. 1025/2000 looks like a very long way off before I get to the QOL stuff I'd like. For context, my main used to be able to be a PVP healer, a PVE tank, and a master crafter/angler, so I'm used to being able to do everything we could under CP 1.0 on her. My second character is a PVE DD and a master thief, Silencer, crafter, farmer, and working on master angler. I'm not going to discount the value of the CP 2.0 QOL just because you want to talk about parsing. Instead, having access to that QOL seems pretty darned beneficial to me doing the activities I like in game! (Note: i could get there sooner, but obviously, I'd prefer to not be spending 3k to respec when I decide to swap between fishing, thieving, and farming.)

And finally, no I'm not exactly talking about those numbers on paper. I'm talking about the very tangible gulf between where I'd like to be and where I am under CP 2.0 , and where the exp to cross that gulf is going to come from with "just playing the game." That's the quests and dailies I'm going to sit down and play for hours, much like I've already played ESO for 6000ish hours already. Not exactly hypothetical, as much as the practical realities of getting to where I want to be.


If you don't feel discouraged by your own numbers, awesome! You do you! I have no desire to insist that you must be unhappy.

However, I'm not asking for your advice on what I can do to be happy about the gap between where I am and where I want to be. My unhappiness is not all a matter of thinking about hypothetical numbers. The numbers in fact quantify the effort its taken me to get this far and the effort it will take for me to reach where I want to be. Putting the numbers out of mind isn't going to make the practical realities of not having certain perks for PVP less painful or lacking certain QOL options for gameplay I like any better, you know? Nor will it lessen the practical grind in any substantial way.

volkeswagon

I think it's human nature to complain. It somehow makes people feel important or superior. Others are uncomfortable with change. Just look at old time baseball fans who instantly oppose any changes to the game even if it makes it safer, more fair or more enjoyable to watch.

Rezdayn

I actually feel like I got a huge buff overall. Doing trifecta vVH and flawless vMA is way easier BUT that does not change the fact I wasted 60% of my exp gain due to these changes.

I normally stay sub and dont play until new content comes out. I 100% that content and come back when even newer content is out. I leave my sub on though....

I dont think I will just leave the sub on in the background anymore... I am not quitting. I will be back for new content and lore. However the company did this on a tiny level with vMA loot and now on a huge scale with CP. They could of easily gave us what we earned but they chose not to.

Their choice. However its my choice to pay a company money any more than I have to if they care that little about my time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saNukVjlLxI&ab_channel=Freetality

NeillMcAttack

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's a really nice writeup!

Your point that a new player will likely be much closer to endgame-viable CP before they leave the honeymoon phase is a good choice by the Devs and should be of great benefit to new players and the end game community in the future.

Currently sitting at 1070 on PC, with close to 800 on PS4, I agree with this statement.

The way that CP scales in this set up is much smarter, so as not to create too big a divide between players. The scaling brings players closer in line, and closer regarding combat buffs than the previous system could. CP 600 now is much stronger than a CP 600 in the last system (sure, mostly due to the new stats, but that is part of the "re-build"). Yet, we can all still scale for longer into the future, but without being too far apart at any point.

Players think that the passives available could help carry them through particular content, but that is not true at all. The buffs are minimal, and knowing the content is much more important, as it always has been, so players should stop worrying about the stupid number and be much more concerned about getting a team together. And just know that each others CP means much less now as long as they are built smart.

As for wasting time, well, our time spent is always only relative to each others, and is exactly how it would have been had ZOS scaled the patch any other way.

Pink_Pixie

I'll chime in by simply saying I've done nearly all the quests. Gathered all the skyshards, done all the fishing, done every single guild quest such as fighters/mage and Psijic. Done every delve, every public dungeon, every dungeon quest and it took a long long time to do it. I didn't rush, I listened to everything, read everything and really enjoyed it, I have played the game.

@furiouslog 's post clearly shows why many of us are unhappy with the changes, and I'm all for new players catching up. Yet there was nothing in the works to even think about what the ramifications would be to players like myself. I cannot regain any of that experience, unless I make an alt, but I don't wish to make an alt as it's not new to do it again. I remember nearly every quest that I have done, and doing them again is like watching paint dry.

My usual play time included PvP, Veteran trials/pledges and daily writs. Now, it's simply daily random dungeon, daily writs log off, that is not acceptable to any player that wishes to enjoy the game. Which I did before, as it allowed me to do those things and not feel way weaker. Granted I do the same damage, but have zero mitigation due to everything being clumped in the blue tree. The daunting task of having to gain yet another 540 connect a dot CP to enjoy the game as I did before is just silly.

If their plan for this patch was to make us play less, and have nothing to do. Then darn, they hit the nail right on the head.

Rampeal

And this is why I have always build my character that has little to no boost from champion points

Alurria

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's a role playing game, so the point is to 1.) play a role ("role playing") and 2.) have fun ("game")

Sitting with calculators and spreadsheets to min / max the math of the game goes against both of those things imo, because you are neither playing a role, nor is it fun. You turn the entire game into just a fancy set of mathematical equations.

I'd rather spend time coming up with characters, designing concepts, finding playstyles that are fun and thematic, and... playing the role of that character.

XP comes as it comes. I'm not gonna sit here and be worried that XP was slower for the past however many years, and use a spreadsheet to figure out that if XP was gained at the same pace, I would be X levels higher than I am now. I'm not gonna sit here and pull out a calculator and spreadsheet to find that if I use sets A and B, that I can do X amount of damage more than the sets and skills that I am doing now, just because X > Y.

Min / Maxing goes against the entire idea of why we play games, imo.

I read an article about why we play games a week or so ago. There was a long list of reasons, and the list did not have a lot of overlap.

Min/maxing is a big part of the competitive offerings in the game. Sometimes the point of a game is to get a high score. Score depends on ability. Ability is a function of time invested. There is a lot of scoring and tallying in ESO that requires an investment of time, and because I put time in, I care about it. I acknowledge that if you are not that kind of player, that none of the stuff I was going on about would really apply to you, because the experience that you enjoy is not the same experience I am currently focused on. For the first year I played ESO, I was pretty casual, questing and pretending to be my character as part of a story. When I got to a point where I started doing trials and PVP, my focus changed. I paid real money for a target dummy. I started getting into the statistics. Full disclosure: I'm a statistical researcher by trade, so I see the world that way to start with.

But I think we both have a valid "point" to our gaming. ESO provides enough variety and depth to appeal to both of us on different levels, given the number of very different possible reasons we game in the first place, and that is okay. I don't get RP guilds. I want nothing to do with it personally, but I'm actually glad that they are there because it's nice to see that they have a role and a way they enjoy the game, and also they care about way different things than I do which offers variety when they provide input. I get that you don't see why I would even go through the effort to do this to start with. Here's why: it's because I really care about it.

I am glad to hear you express this in this way. Which brings up a great point there is a fine balance that ESO must walk in trying to please all game styles. Tipped one way or the other could ruin the game for a whole lot of people. I will use WoW as an example of hitting high level content I will not call it end game because MMOs should never end only persist and grow. They have a crappy gear grind that is rinse and repeat. I couldn't do it. I quit WoW and haven't looked back. When ESO came out I was so relieved to play a game that accomadated my play style so well, solo and casual.

I could never do what you have done breaking down the game in numbers as it would sap all the fun out of it for me. But glad you are having fun doing it. Just try and understand I think we have to have balance when it comes to play styles and I don't think you can always put numbers on people's measure of fun. I also think at some point we have to learn to move on and adapt to the current situation. Good luck to you.

Ratzkifal

That argument about someone who has finished all quests in the game and only plays one character who is now forced to grind because they can't go questing since they've already done the quests is the most compelling one I've heard. A situation like that indeed sucks and personally I have no idea how that could be elegantly resolved. I still don't think giving out free CP is the right approach to this problem though.
Perhaps ZOS could add NG+ for quest lines where you basically get to press a button, then confirm that you are really sure you want to reset the completed questline, and play through it a second time.

Every PvP player who thinks they can't compete anymore like this can check out no-CP PvP and Battlegrounds.

trackdemon5512

My experience:

• Started in October 2017. Fresh off the boat in Morrowind without a clue of what to do. Witches Festival was going on. Halfway through I discovered that if you drink the brew you get 2x XP.
• November 1st, 2017 - I hit Lvl 50. Woo Hoo. Time to realize that means the training wheels are off and I need to learn about the game.
• December 9, 2017 - I clear vet Asylum Sanctorium
• Jan 20th, 2018 - I hit CP 450
• Anniversary April/May 2018. I hit max CP AND get learn every motif in the game.

6 MONTHS AND I WAS CP 690 OR 720 (can't remember).

I wasn't hardcore grinding XP or looking for exploits. I was just playing the game as the developers intended. I participated in the events and got 2x XP and most importantly I had fun. I took my time and enjoyed the stories and spoken dialogue.

I hit CP 1000 for my first anniversary. 1 year of playing.

I hit CP 1500 for my second anniversary.

Fast forward to this year and I'm CP 2K+ on PS4. I enjoyed every minute of playing and earned that XP through questing and experiencing the game.

The leveling is what you make of it. You don't have to set anniversary thresholds like I do but I didn't make CP leveling a chore, it just came naturally. And I've earned far more XP in getting to my current CP than new players will see in getting to 3000+

I don't feel my time is wasted because like I said I enjoyed every minute of my experience (outside of the Dragonhold update which I'm quite sure destroyed my PS4 hard drive from blue screens).

If you don't want to put effort in like I did you don't have to. But please don't complain that playing X amount of time means you deserve a certain level or CP. If you want those stats then put in the work for it. Because if I can get CP720/810 in 6 months back in 2018 then a new player enjoying the events can definitely get to 1200 in less than that.

And for the older player who have been around, I hope that outside of Cyrodiil it has been a good ride. Because if you spent the road trip just reading the odometer instead of taking in the scenery then what was the point?

VaranisArano

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That argument about someone who has finished all quests in the game and only plays one character who is now forced to grind because they can't go questing since they've already done the quests is the most compelling one I've heard. A situation like that indeed sucks and personally I have no idea how that could be elegantly resolved. I still don't think giving out free CP is the right approach to this problem though.
Perhaps ZOS could add NG+ for quest lines where you basically get to press a button, then confirm that you are really sure you want to reset the completed questline, and play through it a second time.

Every PvP player who thinks they can't compete anymore like this can check out no-CP PvP and Battlegrounds.

It wouldn't have been "free CP." CP comes from the experience we earn in game. X amount of CP = Y amount of experience. When ZOS changed the exp curve, they said "Now, Y amount of exp will get you to a higher amount of CP" except that they didn't give us any credit and so we're stuck at X amount of CP.

It would have been giving us the credit for the exp we earned, and everyone in game would have been remapped to the new, accelerated exp curve according to the exp they'd earned.

Instead, we effectively "lost" any exp that's above where we currently sit on the new curve.


As for "just play in No CP PVP"...

I'm going to be as polite as possible, but NO. My guild plays CP PVP. And I don't like No CP PVP Cyrodiil, having tried it.

I'm sure you mean well, but that's more akin to rubbing salt in the wound than offering helpful advice.

Agenericname

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That argument about someone who has finished all quests in the game and only plays one character who is now forced to grind because they can't go questing since they've already done the quests is the most compelling one I've heard. A situation like that indeed sucks and personally I have no idea how that could be elegantly resolved. I still don't think giving out free CP is the right approach to this problem though.
Perhaps ZOS could add NG+ for quest lines where you basically get to press a button, then confirm that you are really sure you want to reset the completed questline, and play through it a second time.

Every PvP player who thinks they can't compete anymore like this can check out no-CP PvP and Battlegrounds.

The CP really isnt free. What I would suggest is that ZOS refund the XP penalties to the players who were overcap when the change went live.

Using my own CP as an example, 1351 CP - 810CP is 541CP. The sum of that XP, remove the penalty, then apply it back to the old curve, because that was the cost at the time. I do not have an issue with the curve being changed, I feel it does more good than harm.

The change and lifting the cap is fine, its meant to be the proverbial treadmill where we all gring for more the levels. I have no issues with that, however, the only players that this applies to were already over the cap and continued to play without any real progression.

Refunding the XP from the penalties also would not effect the current curve or new(er) players as they havent hit the cap yet.

In my opinion it was an odd call for ZOS to make. They had a lot more to lose than they did to gain from it since that subset of players already had a history of playing without any usable progression. They're not really enticing those players with this "carrot" who were already playing in a stagnant progression system, and some have been for 2 years.
The best they could have hoped for was for them to accept it and stood a substantially higher risk of them being disgruntled over it, with no real benefit from the decision.

To be clear, I do not feel like I cannot play at the same level as before. Nor do I feel like I have lost much, and some was intetionally taken away. 3600CP, especially with more penalties at 1800, has completely removed the prospect of ever being capped again. Its not something that Im truly concerned with. I play in the content that I want, how I want, with who I want, but if anything it stripped the value of the carrot they dangle.

sup

I’m damn good at pvp in this game. Not only does my character now suck (900 cp) but my friends play CP cyrodiil. I’m not about to spend months grinding what I find to be insanely boring content just to get back to average stats. Unsubbed, refunded pre-order and will play something else until new world.

SidraWillowsky

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

If you have to pull out math and spreadsheets regarding a video game, I'm automatically tuned out.

Sometimes my students ask "When will we every use this in real life?"

I tell them, "You'd be surprised how often stats gets used in discussing video games."

Or genetics and Punnett squares, for that matter.

I'm fine with stats in games, but if you have to sit there and pull out spreadsheets and do every multiplication equation to figure out what sets to use, or how much experience you are gaining now versus earlier in the game's life cycle, then in my eyes you're doing it completely wrong and missing the entire point.

But dassjussmee

Not being defensive here, honest, but what do you see as the "point"? I'm asking because I can't tell what you mean from context.

It's a role playing game, so the point is to 1.) play a role ("role playing") and 2.) have fun ("game")

Sitting with calculators and spreadsheets to min / max the math of the game goes against both of those things imo, because you are neither playing a role, nor is it fun. You turn the entire game into just a fancy set of mathematical equations.

I'd rather spend time coming up with characters, designing concepts, finding playstyles that are fun and thematic, and... playing the role of that character.

XP comes as it comes. I'm not gonna sit here and be worried that XP was slower for the past however many years, and use a spreadsheet to figure out that if XP was gained at the same pace, I would be X levels higher than I am now. I'm not gonna sit here and pull out a calculator and spreadsheet to find that if I use sets A and B, that I can do X amount of damage more than the sets and skills that I am doing now, just because X > Y.

Min / Maxing goes against the entire idea of why we play games, imo.

That's the thing, though- some of us like min/maxing and truly consider it fun (myself included).

You talked about what you'd rather be doing, but that's just you. Not everyone finds what you listed to be super fun, and for you to say "missing the point" re. spreadsheets and whatnot is... kind of missing a different point, for lack of a better description. People have different "points", and for some people that happens to be creating spreadsheets and working this stuff out.

I'm really not trying to put words in your mouth here, but... I'm a statistician, so I love stuff like this. I like building my character to be as optimized as possible and personally don't care a whole lot about thematic stuff/super detailed backstories on my character, etc. There is no "wrong" playstyle in this game, unless you like to spend all day at the bank using your Warden bear to block the teller or something.

SidraWillowsky

Seraphayel wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

+1
Half of our family STOPPED PLAYING ESO because of the TERRIBLE CP2.0 PATCH.

My daughter only plays played PvP, and it took her years to reach CP810.
She is was one of the best PvP players, does did Top10 easily, currently on CP9xx.
However, with CP2.0 her former top stats suddenly are only mediocre compared to CP1600+ players.

With CP2.0, ZOS devaluates player stats. And players stop playing ESO.
ZOS, WHY COULD YOU NOT JUST TURN ALL XP INTO CP ACCORDING TO THE NEW XP/CP RATIO?
Then former CP8xx would now be CP16xx and everything would be fine.

[snip] don’t stress out about changes that are usually happening in a game that’s under constant development.

All of you chasing the numbers and doing the math when you’re not even held back by that is the thing that’s revealing the most. I dare to say that most players that are so focused and stubborn about 100 Champion Points here, racial changes there and proc sets everywhere are not even capable of reaching the cap they’re always trying to argue with when it comes to all of those things.

Less theorycrafting and math, more playing the game. All this talk about soft caps, hard caps etc. when all of it barely matters - play the game and spend less time calculating stuff that’s hypothetical and only on paper.

But the game's seven (?) year old at this point; I feel like we shouldn't be seeing these wild swings back and forth. The development stage, at least stuff as extreme as we see, should have been over years ago. Raising the CP cap from 810 to 3600 is a 344% increase. Cutting that in half and then tweaking from there would have been much more effective, at least IMO

Smitch_59

I just realized ESO stands for "Elder Spreadsheets Online."

VaranisArano

Smitch_59 wrote: »

I just realized ESO stands for "Elder Spreadsheets Online."

Only when it doesn't stand for "Elder Stamina Online" and "Elder Sorcs Online."

furiouslog

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

My experience:

• Started in October 2017. Fresh off the boat in Morrowind without a clue of what to do. Witches Festival was going on. Halfway through I discovered that if you drink the brew you get 2x XP.
• November 1st, 2017 - I hit Lvl 50. Woo Hoo. Time to realize that means the training wheels are off and I need to learn about the game.
• December 9, 2017 - I clear vet Asylum Sanctorium
• Jan 20th, 2018 - I hit CP 450
• Anniversary April/May 2018. I hit max CP AND get learn every motif in the game.

6 MONTHS AND I WAS CP 690 OR 720 (can't remember).

I wasn't hardcore grinding XP or looking for exploits. I was just playing the game as the developers intended. I participated in the events and got 2x XP and most importantly I had fun. I took my time and enjoyed the stories and spoken dialogue.

I hit CP 1000 for my first anniversary. 1 year of playing.

I hit CP 1500 for my second anniversary.

Fast forward to this year and I'm CP 2K+ on PS4. I enjoyed every minute of playing and earned that XP through questing and experiencing the game.

The leveling is what you make of it. You don't have to set anniversary thresholds like I do but I didn't make CP leveling a chore, it just came naturally. And I've earned far more XP in getting to my current CP than new players will see in getting to 3000+

I don't feel my time is wasted because like I said I enjoyed every minute of my experience (outside of the Dragonhold update which I'm quite sure destroyed my PS4 hard drive from blue screens).

If you don't want to put effort in like I did you don't have to. But please don't complain that playing X amount of time means you deserve a certain level or CP. If you want those stats then put in the work for it. Because if I can get CP720/810 in 6 months back in 2018 then a new player enjoying the events can definitely get to 1200 in less than that.

And for the older player who have been around, I hope that outside of Cyrodiil it has been a good ride. Because if you spent the road trip just reading the odometer instead of taking in the scenery then what was the point?

Your Farm Rate is clearly higher than mine. Do you mind posting your /played stats, # of toons, and current CP level? I'd like to see the difference from mine, because it might represent a more accurate benchmark for someone who has played the game in an exp-driven way. I was definitely a tourist for the first year of playing the game, In the last two years I ramped up my activity and started optimizing around building an endgame capability. My rate was higher than what some others posted in here, so I figure that I'm somewhere in the middle of the pack.

Now, if you enjoyed every minute of your experience, that is good for you, but I think that's a fundamental difference between you and me. We can't relate to each other's experiences because If you ever did the Allkr Desert and Skyreach grinds, I can't believe that you found that fun. I can't relate to that. If I didn't do that stuff, I would be nowhere near where I am now. If you never did it, I find it hard to believe that you made that rate naturally only by doing things that you actually enjoyed. But, I could be wrong. Maybe you are a unicorn (I mean that in a good way).

Just answer this honestly: did you ever do something that was purely goal-focused to earn anything in the game that you found kind of boring and repetitive? I definitely have. Did you ever farm for a randomly dropped weapon for ages of time because you wanted it in your build? I have. But why did I do that?

Part of it is this intrinsic motivation that some players have to reach a destination of being "perfect", for lack of a better word, and I want to do that as efficiently as possible. Being the best you can possibly be is the goal. One poster pointed out that part of the CP redesign was to remove the meaning of CP and reduce impact on performance. Why would they then just not retroactively grant the XP equivalent of CP to players who already grinded that XP if it really makes no difference? It should not matter if I am way higher than what a new player has, because it will not really boost my performance that much. You can't have it both ways. If that's the case, then going back to motivation, what they are doing is manipulating players who play the game the way I do (to reach the goal of having the "perfect" build) into continuing to grind the game in order to hit their goals. New players who are coming in fresh with the same motivation are given a relative boost to hit that destination so that they feel like they can reach that destination quickly, and I already said that this is a good thing. The bad thing is that they moved my finish line too far down the road. Way too much. It requires a lot of time spent doing things I don't enjoy because I have already done them over and over and over and over to meet my game-related goals. Giving me CP equivalent to its old XP value won't actually hurt newer players because they can catch up to viable endgame participation a lot faster than I did, and they are going to play more hours per week than I will because I am settled, which means they will overtake me more quickly anyway because they have more in the tank.

For PVPers who hate PVE, this is far worse for them. I have run dungeons with a number of these guys and they seriously hate it. They hate farming PVE for gear they need for BGs and Cyrodiil, but they do it. Because they want to hit that goal of having the perfect build and dominate their opponents. This class of players has it far worse than I do.

I already know what you're probably going to say, and others have already said this to me: just quit the game. I don't want to because I spent a lot of time building a community and have gathered a number of friends who I enjoy playing with. If I could settle back and pick and choose what I wanted to do without having this sense of being far behind my personal destination, I would just keep playing and enjoying the moments I choose to play. But now there is this sense of being behind and incomplete, and I'm not talking about the things that they added to the tree. I like that there are more ways to progress and that they designed in choices to make trade-offs That provides a lot of flexibility. But having to work more to progress to where I already was by doing things I don't enjoy is infuriating. I thought I'd be using the CP I had to play with the flexibility instead, which would be enjoyable and fun for me, and based on what people have already pointed out, will make no difference on the ability of a new player to catch up and participate because CP matters a lot less. Great, then give me the XP equivalent of the CP (which, btw, I'm not actually asking for - I think there is a fair intermediate solution).

If I get to the point where it's too much, maybe I'll take that advice and get off the treadmill, and do something else with my 15 hours. But I'm still stuck in "Bargaining", so I'm kind of hoping that ZOS hears this perspective and addresses it. I don't want to get to "Acceptance" until I'm ready to give up on it.