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Cold hard facts.
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CSose✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)
An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.
But didn't they also reduce the population caps with the "test" implementation? It sure seems like it.0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭BrownChicken wrote: »You forget that the problem is not only that only a few sets are relevant. The problem is that in recent patches, due to proc sets, the gameplay has changed for the worse. Precisely because the gameplay without proc sets has become better has become a decisive factor.
This was changed in 2.0, however. where percentiles being replaced by flat values. these flat values do not buff proc's.
malacath aside. procs should be relatively docile in 2.0. especialy with some sets giving a 100% proc rate after x seconds. giving the enemy a countdown of knowing when the next proc will happen now. also reducing proc damage even outside of champ system's new way to scale damage.
many factors have changed that will effectivly nerf proc's in 2.02 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)
An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.
But didn't they also reduce the population caps with the "test" implementation? It sure seems like it.
Doubtful, unless they stated the decreased the max population. then no.0 -
CSose✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)
An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.
But didn't they also reduce the population caps with the "test" implementation? It sure seems like it.
Doubtful, unless they stated the decreased the max population. then no.
Previous reductions in the population cap has happened at least twice with no notification of any kind to the community.2 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »it should also be mention. alot of you are doing better in pvp not because of the set changes, but because pvers are doing pvp now because of these changes/double ap. so your average pvp scuffle now is much easier and appears like the system is working. but in reality you;re probably fighting a knave who's still green. and the quote on quote "skillful players" are still as over powering and tough as they normally are.
I love this. When people are like, "no, it made things worse," they claim there are no new PvPers, and Gina stating they've seen an uptick is deceptive. But, when it comes time to convince people that these changes are bad, now the argument is that there are more PvEers in Cyrodiil. (And, yes, I understand that you're not making both of these arguments personally.)
An increase in player population, is proof enough that there are people who don't normally pvp in cyrodiil. if it were just the regulars, there would be no increase at all. ergo, whay i've stated holds up as factual. This is why regulars are seeing a "major diffrence" in pvp too. because they have more novices to kill and push around.
But didn't they also reduce the population caps with the "test" implementation? It sure seems like it.
Doubtful, unless they stated the decreased the max population. then no.
Previous reductions in the population cap has happened at least twice with no notification of any kind to the community.
well as stated in my title. facts, not assumptions. if it was a server preformance test, you can bet for sure they wouldnt reduce population for it's duration.0 -
Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OP - It's not facts but just analysis without seeing whole picture there. Problem with current procs sets (not just proc sets per se) that they were too powerful - more than pure skills and sieges. So player can maximum boost health, don't even caring about stamina/magicka (his gear was was more important and deadly than simple skils), hide behind other players and snipe or light attack to apply sets procs. When enemy sustain was burned to purge all these effect, he can go with his 40k health and defeat enemy with satisfaction of good job done.
To be clear, most of player base is not against any procs but against this sick situation we have last months. Of course we need builds diversity and more sets and everybody knows it. We don't want procs in current form, but we also don't say that 19 sets nad sorc meta is ok
ZOS stated that they will work on this topic and it will take some time, but they won't keep it in this form forever. But for know, we can at least have some vacation from all these procs.
And now when outpost is defended, I see players with a lot of oils, not with bows - and this how it should be. If you think that was better to make proc wars, then you have mistaken Cyrodiil with BGSPC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »OP - It's not facts but just analysis without seeing whole picture there. Problem with current procs sets (not just proc sets per se) that they were too powerful - more than pure skills and sieges. So player can maximum boost health, don't even caring about stamina/magicka (his gear was was more important and deadly than simple skils), hide behind other players and snipe or light attack to apply sets procs. When enemy sustain was burned to purge all these effect, he can go with his 40k health and defeat enemy with satisfaction of good job done.
To be clear, most of player base is not against any procs but against this sick situation we have last months. Of course we need builds diversity and more sets and everybody knows it. We don't want procs in current form, but we also don't say that 19 sets nad sorc meta is ok
ZOS stated that they will work on this topic and it will take some time, but they won't keep it in this form forever. But for know, we can at least have some vacation from all these procs.
And now when outpost is defended, I see players with a lot of oils, not with bows - and this how it should be. If you think that was better to make proc wars, then you have mistaken Cyrodiil with BGS
yes, a lot of these issues have also been (sort of) corrected in champ 2.0 releasing monday. some sets getting a damage nerf. while the champion system itself is a major factor. takign away percentiles, swaping for flat values. and these flat values do not boost Proc's. thus nerfing them down more.
if we REALLY dicept procs tho. we'll notice a number of them now are on a timer as opposed to RNG or RNG+ timer. this is BIGGER than it looks. because we can now countdown when the proc will hit, as opposed to having a limited window of warning. making procs all the more easily avoided by skillful players.1 -
AuraNebula✭✭✭✭✭This whole post is bashing people who don't agree with the changes. And it is not being removed why?0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭Princessrhaenyra wrote: »This whole post is bashing people who don't agree with the changes. And it is not being removed why?
if thats what you truly think my intentions are here. i'm sorry you feel that way. but this forum is not to bash or call out any individual. rather to point out collective facts to express whats going on, and to point out how these facts are leading to possible misconceptions.
again if you;re upset. sorry.0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭truth is, as most pvpers can agree. a vast majority of peopel who participate in pvp, much like pve. are not experts by any means. There is a reason why 1 guy can take on 10+ people. most are quick to blame sets or builds. etc. Infact msot of these 1vxers tend to die in 1v1's. there is such thing as a skillgap. Our community though, is dependent upon a populous vote. and alas we get a majority of our feedback from these players who are hasty to judge, and assume things can or will be OP. yet those who take the feedback know nothing of the commentors background or even if they have the skill that qualifies them to give such a feed back. Any average joe can contribute. and that is what ruins our pvp community.0
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Luke_Flamesword✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I play mostly no-CP, so...yes, a lot of these issues have also been (sort of) corrected in champ 2.0
PC | EU | DC |Stam Dk Breton0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »
I play mostly no-CP, so...yes, a lot of these issues have also been (sort of) corrected in champ 2.0
ah yes, blame malacath then ;p. but still they are nerfing the base damage of mot proc sets by 10-15%. so thats somthing at least. hang in there~1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Luke_Flamesword wrote: »
I play mostly no-CP, so...yes, a lot of these issues have also been (sort of) corrected in champ 2.0
So do I (or I did...) but the CP changes and boost to base stats absolutely would have nerfed the utility of damaging proc sets through the added mitigation and health pool that players are receiving.
That would have been a sensible place to begin reigning in such sets, but, since ZOS can't do nuance, they went ahead and nuked everything from orbit anyway.Edited by YandereGirlfriend on March 6, 2021 11:26PM0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Luke_Flamesword wrote: »
I play mostly no-CP, so...yes, a lot of these issues have also been (sort of) corrected in champ 2.0
So do I (or I did...) but the CP changes and boost to base stats absolutely would have nerfed the utility of damaging proc sets through the added mitigation and health pool that players are receiving.
That would have been a sensible place to begin reigning in such sets, but, since ZOS can't do nuance, they went ahead and nuked everything from orbit anyway.
There were much more simple way to do alot of things that would have less impacted the community. However, like some players, devs don't actively pvp. just listen to feedback. and feedback is all number dependent. not so much accurate as it is greatest majority.0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You say: "The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess."
This feels like a bit of a strawman.
First off, players do have the same choices in terms of classes, abilities, resources, and now, the same choices between limited sets. This change to no proc sets makes for much less variation in builds...and thus makes it more likely for the skill of the player to matter. (But the old meta?! The old meta was a lot more varied than the 20 or so sets that are still allowed in Cyrodiil.)
It's not 100% skill based gameplay - this isn't chess and I don't think anyone wants it to be - but it does cut down on the variables.
Second, the "skilled gameplay" argument also has to do with "living or dying by your skills, not your sets".
That's where the disdain for damage and non-damage proc sets comes from. Did you score a kill or was it your gear set proccing for free damage? Did I protect my group adequately, or are they being carried in part by the stacked support proc sets that I and the other healers in raid wear?
Now, we can argue that because there is always a meta, as long as choices exist some players will win because they chose better gear choices than their opponent...but that's bringing us back to the 100% skilled gameplay of Chess where everyone has the exact same pieces.
Maybe I'm listening in the wrong places, but I don't hear many people arguing in favor of that style of PVP for Cyrodiil.
Instead, players who favor no-proc sets tend to be looking for "more skill" in their gameplay, namely that people live or die primarily by their skill at utilizing their class/skills/build as opposed to their sets proccing at the appropriate time. It's not that gear choices have no role to play in good PVP, so much as gear procs shouldn't be killing or saving players.6 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »You say: "The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess."
This feels like a bit of a strawman.
First off, players do have the same choices in terms of classes, abilities, resources, and now, the same choices between limited sets. This change to no proc sets makes for much less variation in builds...and thus makes it more likely for the skill of the player to matter. (But the old meta?! The old meta was a lot more varied than the 20 or so sets that are still allowed in Cyrodiil.)
It's not 100% skill based gameplay - this isn't chess and I don't think anyone wants it to be - but it does cut down on the variables.
Second, the "skilled gameplay" argument also has to do with "living or dying by your skills, not your sets".
That's where the disdain for damage and non-damage proc sets comes from. Did you score a kill or was it your gear set proccing for free damage? Did I protect my group adequately, or are they being carried in part by the stacked support proc sets that I and the other healers in raid wear?
Now, we can argue that because there is always a meta, as long as choices exist some players will win because they chose better gear choices than their opponent...but that's bringing us back to the 100% skilled gameplay of Chess where everyone has the exact same pieces.
Maybe I'm listening in the wrong places, but I don't hear many people arguing in favor of that style of PVP for Cyrodiil.
Instead, players who favor no-proc sets tend to be looking for "more skill" in their gameplay, namely that people live or die primarily by their skill at utilizing their class/skills/build as opposed to their sets proccing at the appropriate time. It's not that gear choices have no role to play in good PVP, so much as gear procs shouldn't be killing or saving players.
yes, you are very much "listening" in the wrong places. I never understood how pressing a button, or waitting for a button to be pressed. could be defined as "skill" neither your player skills. or the added benefit of a proc set is "skillful". major diffrence being one you use a finger to press and activate. the other has a cooldown.1 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭the skill from a proc should come from its ability to "set up" and skill in countering a proc should be the ability to avoid it. but the damage itself, wether its proc OR an ability. is irrelevent when we refer to "skill". needless to say your "damage" argument confuses me. because dammage is not skill.
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SeaArcanist✭✭✭arguably the ability to time a proc and combo it, is "skillful". champ 2.0 seems to rid RNG from procs. so timing is key now. but it is a double edged sword. for now your enemy knows the exact time it takes for your proc to trigger again, and can prepare for it.
this being the definition of how skill is implimneted into the game. one player will attempt to avoid, one player is trying to set up. how they go about doing that is the "skill" factor. but the end result, the 'damage", no. damage is not skill. so i see no reason to associate the amount of damage anything does with "skill"0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »You say: "The only way a game can truly be evaluated by skill is if players have the exact same abilities, resources. etc. like chess."
This feels like a bit of a strawman.
First off, players do have the same choices in terms of classes, abilities, resources, and now, the same choices between limited sets. This change to no proc sets makes for much less variation in builds...and thus makes it more likely for the skill of the player to matter. (But the old meta?! The old meta was a lot more varied than the 20 or so sets that are still allowed in Cyrodiil.)
It's not 100% skill based gameplay - this isn't chess and I don't think anyone wants it to be - but it does cut down on the variables.
Second, the "skilled gameplay" argument also has to do with "living or dying by your skills, not your sets".
That's where the disdain for damage and non-damage proc sets comes from. Did you score a kill or was it your gear set proccing for free damage? Did I protect my group adequately, or are they being carried in part by the stacked support proc sets that I and the other healers in raid wear?
Now, we can argue that because there is always a meta, as long as choices exist some players will win because they chose better gear choices than their opponent...but that's bringing us back to the 100% skilled gameplay of Chess where everyone has the exact same pieces.
Maybe I'm listening in the wrong places, but I don't hear many people arguing in favor of that style of PVP for Cyrodiil.
Instead, players who favor no-proc sets tend to be looking for "more skill" in their gameplay, namely that people live or die primarily by their skill at utilizing their class/skills/build as opposed to their sets proccing at the appropriate time. It's not that gear choices have no role to play in good PVP, so much as gear procs shouldn't be killing or saving players.
yes, you are very much "listening" in the wrong places. I never understood how pressing a button, or waitting for a button to be pressed. could be defined as "skill" neither your player skills. or the added benefit of a proc set is "skillful". major diffrence being one you use a finger to press and activate. the other has a cooldown.
I'll give an example of a healer proc: Earthgore.
"When you heal yourself or a group member that is under 50% Health, you conjure a pool of quenching blood underneath them, immediately removing all previous enemy placed effects, and healing the lowest Health group member in the area for 29700 Health over 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 20 seconds."
As a healer wearing Earthgore, the only thing I'm doing is healing. That's the part that requires some skill on my part - knowing when and where to heal, managing my own resources, etc.
But as soon as someone drops below 50% and I heal them, something I would be doing anyway, we get the free proc from Earthgore. I no longer have to save that player - my set did it for me. I no longer have to worry about some of those placed enemy effects or Purge them - my set got rid of them.
Now, we can argue that Earthgore adds a certain extra layer of "skill" to combat: that of cooldown management. My raid lead is going to know that my Earthgore went off, so they might delay a push until the 20 sec cooldown has elapsed and my set is ready to save someone else...but again, that's my set doing the saving. I just proc it by healing, something I'd be doing anyway.
On the other hand, cooldown management isn't exactly the sort of PVP combat that ESO is traditionally known for. Our skills and rotations are designed for active resource management, not having our skills on cooldown. The exception is ultimates, which tend to have extra power to make up for the cooldown, and even those require active management by the player. My healer decides when to use her Barrier ult, but Earthgore goes off automatically whenever the proc condition is met and its not on cooldown. The only thing I need to do is heal and, well, I'm a healer. I'd be doing that anyway.
So it comes down to a debate of "who should be doing the fighting?" Me? Or my sets?
You seem to suggest that my Earthgore proc saving a player is no more or less skillful than me using my healing skills to save a player at 50% heath.
The argument in favor of no-procs is going to say that it's more skillful to save that player with my healing skills than it is to have my Earthgore set proc and save them automatically. Using my skills requires situational awareness and resources management on my part. Earthgore does not - at most, it adds the knowledge of a 20 second timer on when it can proc again.2 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.0
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Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
Some sets don’t even require an action like crimson. Literally do nothing and get a heal and damage instead of using skills that would cost resources and 2 global cool downs, but yeah keep telling us how procs are skillful.
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SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
Some sets don’t even require an action like crimson. Literally do nothing and get a heal and damage instead of using skills that would cost resources and 2 global cool downs, but yeah keep telling us how procs are skillful.
roll out of the way. use some of that skill you keep talking about.2 -
Sanctum74✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
Some sets don’t even require an action like crimson. Literally do nothing and get a heal and damage instead of using skills that would cost resources and 2 global cool downs, but yeah keep telling us how procs are skillful.
roll out of the way. use some of that skill you keep talking about.
Fine then I shouldn’t have to use any resources, my skills should be free with no global cool downs cause you need your armor to fight for you. Sounds balanced
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
There's a big difference between me healing a player back from 50% heal vs me using any healing skill on them that just happens to proc Earthgore.
The first takes situational awareness, me actively choosing to use burst healing skills to heal that person, and also active resource management to make sure I heal that person and still have resources left to heal the group. Example of when this happens: when the Raid Lead get hit hard.
The second is triggered by a single Healing Springs or Mutagen while someone's at 50% health which are skills I'm almost always casting on the group while in combat anyway. I'm not choosing to save that player. My set does the saving.
So again, you seem to be suggesting that my Earthgore proc saving a player is no more or less skillful than me using my healing skills to save a player at 50% heath?1 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭SeaArcanist wrote: »SeaArcanist wrote: »either way you need to slap a heal on the player to heal them. your set cant LITERALLY heal them by choice. you still acivate it on the target.
Some sets don’t even require an action like crimson. Literally do nothing and get a heal and damage instead of using skills that would cost resources and 2 global cool downs, but yeah keep telling us how procs are skillful.
roll out of the way. use some of that skill you keep talking about.
Fine then I shouldn’t have to use any resources, my skills should be free with no global cool downs cause you need your armor to fight for you. Sounds balanced
lets get rid enchantments while we're at it too. thats free damage! and a free debuff somtiems too! yeah!0 -
SeaArcanist✭✭✭a syngery is free damage too. lets get rid of those. hp regen, what a free heal? lets get rid of it1
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SeaArcanist✭✭✭point being there's lots of sources of "free damage" and "free heals" procs arnt the only thing. but you;ve convinced yourself procs are the bane of existence when they are a minor nuisance, especially in champ 2.0, at best.2
This discussion has been closed.