Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Saw an interesting one the other day. Queue for Random Normal as DPS (I have ESO+). To my great surprise, I get FG1. Upon entering, get a message from the tank that says "leave the healer behind", and he takes off. Healer was a very low level. Tank did the typical FG1 Skips, and was certainly built as a DPS designed for a fast clear.

What I am assuming is going on is that the person in question used two accounts. The first account was clearly without ESO+ and a low level character, that they grouped with their main account (max CP, and presumably ESO+). This ensures one of only a handful of dungeons, and because they make up half the group, there is no way to kick either player. This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue (assuming you queue as a support role on each).

Anyone else seen this? Part of me was moderately annoyed, part of me thought it was genius. Do you think it violates any TOS? It certainly didnt appear that he was controlling both accounts simultaneously or anything like that. It was FG1, so its not exactly hard solo quickly by yourself, and I don't believe the healer moved an inch during the actual dungeon.

there's an assumption there.. I might have chatted the person up to find out more. I assume PC yes?

IDk, I kinda like it because of the ESO+ dungeon penalty 9which i should NOT have to describe at this point).

I am certainly assuming it was an alt account and not an AFK friend, but does that really change anything? It could be done either way. For the purposes of the discussion, I think it’s a safe assumption.

As said, it really doesn’t bother me (a small part has considered doing it myself). The ONLY reason I would ever bother with a normal dungeon is transmutes, and ESO+ is a huge drawback in this area. I would certainly advocate for the ability to disable ESO+, but that horse has been beaten pretty thoroughly.

If it is a afk friend, then there is nothing wrong at all? Imagine being banner because you queued with a low level friend and the friend has gone afk lol

Assuming this was someone with 2 accounts logged in at the same time-- and assuming that's a ToS violation (which I think it might be, but I'm not sure)-- the only thing that rubs me the wrong way about it is the idea that the person can then basically run the dungeon however they want at the possible expense of the rest of the group without fear of being kicked.

On the other hand, if being logged in on multiple accounts at the same time isn't a ToS violation, it might be nice to buy 3 alt accounts, have low-level characters on them, group your high-level character on your main account with those 3 low-level alts, and basically solo a random-but-guaranteed-FG1 dungeon that way. It seems like that wouldn't be much different than running a dungeon with companions-- although we don't know for sure yet how that's going to work. I assume doing something like that would be considered an exploit, but at least it wouldn't ruin any other players' fun by letting you run the dungeon however you want without fear of being kicked, since you'd be the only player in the group.

It's probably safer to agree to group with 3 other actual players-- friends or guildmates-- who are on low-level characters, and basically solo the dungeon while they proceed through at their own pace to do the quest or whatever, assuming they don't mind missing out on being able to loot any bosses they didn't actually help kill.

I don’t see an issue with this. They are sticking to easy dungeons, and Q’ing as tank and healer. The things DPS players wish there were more of? So, in a way, they’re actually doing you guys a service by providing a quick group for two DPS, who otherwise might have had to sit for 30 sec - 5 minutes more waiting for a tank and healer.

So, maybe they are, maybe they aren’t, but... I don’t recall too many people turning Robin Hood types into the authority when no one was pressuring them. Just my opinion... why tell on someone helping the community out, even if only a tiny bit? Yeah, they could be gaming the system, but who cares? They’re helping, too.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Assuming this was someone with 2 accounts logged in at the same time-- and assuming that's a ToS violation (which I think it might be, but I'm not sure)-- the only thing that rubs me the wrong way about it is the idea that the person can then basically run the dungeon however they want at the possible expense of the rest of the group without fear of being kicked.

On the other hand, if being logged in on multiple accounts at the same time isn't a ToS violation, it might be nice to buy 3 alt accounts, have low-level characters on them, group your high-level character on your main account with those 3 low-level alts, and basically solo a random-but-guaranteed-FG1 dungeon that way. It seems like that wouldn't be much different than running a dungeon with companions-- although we don't know for sure yet how that's going to work. I assume doing something like that would be considered an exploit, but at least it wouldn't ruin any other players' fun by letting you run the dungeon however you want without fear of being kicked, since you'd be the only player in the group.

It's probably safer to agree to group with 3 other actual players-- friends or guildmates-- who are on low-level characters, and basically solo the dungeon while they proceed through at their own pace to do the quest or whatever, assuming they don't mind missing out on being able to loot any bosses they didn't actually help kill.

They have stated in other threads that it is not against the TOS to be logged into two accounts at the same time, whether they are on one computer or two, as long as you are not using any programs or similar to control them simultaneously. Nothing wrong with two accounts open to facilite trades or whatever, but traditional "Multi-boxing" where you basically have multiple characters hooked up to the same controller interface are prohibited.

I think this certainly is in a gray area. You aren't necessarily controlling two accounts, as you could easily do this with two separate machines, or one machine and alt-tab to group and queue, but I do think it at least smells like a possible exploit.

What I do not know: If I AFK at the beginning of a dungeon on a low level alt and the group races ahead and clears, do I get any of the rewards from group finder? Specifically, the XP and Transmutes? That starts to smell like some questionable boosting activity if so.

This is the root of the issue. They have been very clear that hooking up multiple accounts to the same controller is not acceptable. But they have also said that's not the be all and end all of what's disallowed:

The Help page says: "Multiboxing is the practice of playing multiple accounts simultaneously, including, but not limited to using either hardware or software to facilitate the coordination between the accounts."

Jessica said: "They aren't simultaneously playing the two characters or using any hardware or software to automate movement, gameplay, etc."

That "or" means the devs aren't limiting their definition of "playing simultaneously" to automated movement.

That's a lot of ground for considering queueing up with multiple accounts against their wishes here.

Edited for grammar.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Assuming this was someone with 2 accounts logged in at the same time-- and assuming that's a ToS violation (which I think it might be, but I'm not sure)-- the only thing that rubs me the wrong way about it is the idea that the person can then basically run the dungeon however they want at the possible expense of the rest of the group without fear of being kicked.

On the other hand, if being logged in on multiple accounts at the same time isn't a ToS violation, it might be nice to buy 3 alt accounts, have low-level characters on them, group your high-level character on your main account with those 3 low-level alts, and basically solo a random-but-guaranteed-FG1 dungeon that way. It seems like that wouldn't be much different than running a dungeon with companions-- although we don't know for sure yet how that's going to work. I assume doing something like that would be considered an exploit, but at least it wouldn't ruin any other players' fun by letting you run the dungeon however you want without fear of being kicked, since you'd be the only player in the group.

It's probably safer to agree to group with 3 other actual players-- friends or guildmates-- who are on low-level characters, and basically solo the dungeon while they proceed through at their own pace to do the quest or whatever, assuming they don't mind missing out on being able to loot any bosses they didn't actually help kill.

They have stated in other threads that it is not against the TOS to be logged into two accounts at the same time, whether they are on one computer or two, as long as you are not using any programs or similar to control them simultaneously. Nothing wrong with two accounts open to facilite trades or whatever, but traditional "Multi-boxing" where you basically have multiple characters hooked up to the same controller interface are prohibited.

I think this certainly is in a gray area. You aren't necessarily controlling two accounts, as you could easily do this with two separate machines, or one machine and alt-tab to group and queue, but I do think it at least smells like a possible exploit.

What I do not know: If I AFK at the beginning of a dungeon on a low level alt and the group races ahead and clears, do I get any of the rewards from group finder? Specifically, the XP and Transmutes? That starts to smell like some questionable boosting activity if so.

But what the situations where entire guilds receive money to run someone through a Trial for gear, loot, titles. Most the time they just log in for the ride and are AFK. Is that not boosting? How is it any different? Yet its a very frequent activity

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue

Pretty sure you only get transmutes on your first random of the day and not on subsequent. So I don't think he can really "cycle through characters" and get transmutes any faster.

Myself on this topic, he has two accounts, he is not using any automation, not playing them at the same time (I reject the argument that having both characters queued is playing at the same time, I think it is intended to mean actively inputting data at the same time, not just waiting around at the same time), and he is not gaining any advantage that is not available to anyone else if they simply unsub-which is an hilarious counter-intuitive situation that ZoS should really address already.

People are already using low-level guild mates and friends to accomplish the same thing, so that can't be the issue, unless ZoS or others have a problem with that technique.

The only possible issue is taking away a spot from another person. But I think that's a pretty weak argument since if everyone started using this technique it simply means everyone would be two-manning dungeons and there would be twice as many dungeons up and running. It's not like there are only 10 dungeons instances allowed so every spot is precious. The game can spin-up as many as needed.

Overall I would give this a pass.

Souterain wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yep, same page. It's one thing to be AFK near a banker in Deshaan for trading between accounts, its perhaps another to be in groupfinder queue with your hands off the controls. Am I "playing multiple accounts simultaneously" if I do this? I think there is a reasonable argument that I would be. "Including but not limited to" is language you will find in just about every contract ever written. haha. I am certainly coordinating two accounts, for the benefit of one of them. I think whether it benefits both (does the AFK account get anything out of this? I still don't know) perhaps moves the needle on this as well.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/504118/multiple-accounts-at-the-same-time/p1

Check the screenshot in the OP of that thread, last comment is by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom who says "Even if you did have your characters grouped and were using your higher-level character to help up your lower-level character, that would be okay. The thing that isn't okay is when you are automating gameplay in some way, such as with external software that lets you do something the game otherwise couldn't do...."

Again, the issue zos clearly have is with automation.

Jessica's comment linked above is from *after* the private conversation in that screenshot. It is also the public of the two comments, so it should be considered to supersede a private communication that was sent earlier.

It's very clear from both the Help page and Jessica's *public* posts that their concerns with playing multiple accounts simultaneously is "not limited to" automation.

Jessica wasn't giving people a free pass to "help" their lower level alt accounts however they wished. She never explicitly addressed a situation in which someone was taking up two spaces in the public queue with multiple accounts simultaneously. Until and unless they explicitly say queueing with two accounts at the same time is OK, they have the room to say that's not OK. They write these things very broadly to allow a lot of room for interpretation, and at the end of the day, it's their interpretation that matters.

Souterain wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Yep, same page. It's one thing to be AFK near a banker in Deshaan for trading between accounts, its perhaps another to be in groupfinder queue with your hands off the controls. Am I "playing multiple accounts simultaneously" if I do this? I think there is a reasonable argument that I would be. "Including but not limited to" is language you will find in just about every contract ever written. haha. I am certainly coordinating two accounts, for the benefit of one of them. I think whether it benefits both (does the AFK account get anything out of this? I still don't know) perhaps moves the needle on this as well.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/504118/multiple-accounts-at-the-same-time/p1

Check the screenshot in the OP of that thread, last comment is by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom who says "Even if you did have your characters grouped and were using your higher-level character to help up your lower-level character, that would be okay. The thing that isn't okay is when you are automating gameplay in some way, such as with external software that lets you do something the game otherwise couldn't do...."

Again, the issue zos clearly have is with automation.

So, in your OP, even if the character was running both accounts, there clearly wasn't any obvious automation going on since you believed the healer didn't move. I doubt the healer would get any loot except, maybe, from the 1st trash mob in FG1 as you usually have to be quite close to the action when grouped to pick up loot. No idea about the xp bonus, though, but even if so, according to that quote it would be perfectly ok - unless automation was involved.

Automation is allowed if u use the in-game autorun and that's all you can do, u can let 10 or even 20 accounts move at the same time but with in-game autorun only, if u trying to make them cast skill at the same time or light attack or any actions that's not autorun in-game, u will be banned instantly and permanently!

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue

Pretty sure you only get transmutes on your first random of the day and not on subsequent. So I don't think he can really "cycle through characters" and get transmutes any faster.

Myself on this topic, he has two accounts, he is not using any automation, not playing them at the same time (I reject the argument that having both characters queued is playing at the same time, I think it is intended to mean actively inputting data at the same time, not just waiting around at the same time), and he is not gaining any advantage that is not available to anyone else if they simply unsub-which is an hilarious counter-intuitive situation that ZoS should really address already.

People are already using low-level guild mates and friends to accomplish the same thing, so that can't be the issue, unless ZoS or others have a problem with that technique.

The only possible issue is taking away a spot from another person. But I think that's a pretty weak argument since if everyone started using this technique it simply means everyone would be two-manning dungeons and there would be twice as many dungeons up and running. It's not like there are only 10 dungeons instances allowed so every spot is precious. The game can spin-up as many as needed.

Overall I would give this a pass.

10 Transmutes a day are per character per day NOT per account per day, just FYI. So in my example, the low-level character wouldnt keep getting them (unclear if you get them the first time just by standing at the entrance), but you could do 18 toons on the main account, for 180 transmutes. I run 4-6 tanks through in the evening semi regularly, you get 10 per.

That's actually surprising to me. No wonder we saw so many "we need more transmute storage" threads.

I get mine from PvP mainly but clearly it's pretty easy to get tonnes of them for little investment.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

I do this daily. All 18 toons. 4.5 mil exp. 180 transmutes. Takes about 2 hours. I stream myself doing it. I was an eso stream team member when I did it. I advertise doing it and for my followers to join me. The devs know I do it. They have watched me do it.

There is not one single thing wrong with playing two accounts at once as long as there is no automation to do so. It's obvious that's what they mean in the TOS. If it wasn't, they would have asked me to stop or suspended me a long time ago. Stop trying to lawyer speak it to fit your narrative when that's not what the TOS means at all.

No one is harmed in doing this. One player getting more transmutes and faster exp doesn't effect other players who get less. It's using a system to its full efficiency and nothing more.

Anyone using the random dungeon finder shares only one common goal with everyone else in the group: To finish the dungeon and get the final reward. As long as that goal is the focus of the group that's all that matters. You play that dungeon the way you want and if you don't like another players method of reaching that end goal of completing the random normal then that's on you and you should leave the dungeon.

When we get companions next chapter youre gonna see a lot of this. So be ready.

You could have stopped after the first paragraph. If you stream it and do it all the time, then I guess ZOS doesn’t care. No need to be rude about it. Either way, it smells funny and the TOS is all we have to go on unless ZOS directly comments on a specific activity, which I have not seen them do In this instance.

Also, you second to last paragraph is based on an assumption that is certainly not true of everyone, and concludes with a pretty selfish position. Yes it’s a random group finder, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be considerate if for example people want to clear trash or do a quest.

One specific problem with this method is that you remove the voice that ZOS intentionally gave everyone in group finder, which is to vote kick people if the group doesn’t like how they are acting.

Again I have no problem with people doing this. The post is about whether not ZOS views it as exploiting and potentially could take action.

This is the answer OP looking for... describe exactly as OP said

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Inklings wrote: »

I do this daily. All 18 toons. 4.5 mil exp. 180 transmutes. Takes about 2 hours. I stream myself doing it. I was an eso stream team member when I did it. I advertise doing it and for my followers to join me. The devs know I do it. They have watched me do it.

There is not one single thing wrong with playing two accounts at once as long as there is no automation to do so. It's obvious that's what they mean in the TOS. If it wasn't, they would have asked me to stop or suspended me a long time ago. Stop trying to lawyer speak it to fit your narrative when that's not what the TOS means at all.

No one is harmed in doing this. One player getting more transmutes and faster exp doesn't effect other players who get less. It's using a system to its full efficiency and nothing more.

Anyone using the random dungeon finder shares only one common goal with everyone else in the group: To finish the dungeon and get the final reward. As long as that goal is the focus of the group that's all that matters. You play that dungeon the way you want and if you don't like another players method of reaching that end goal of completing the random normal then that's on you and you should leave the dungeon.

When we get companions next chapter youre gonna see a lot of this. So be ready.

You could have stopped after the first paragraph. If you stream it and do it all the time, then I guess ZOS doesn’t care. No need to be rude about it. Either way, it smells funny and the TOS is all we have to go on unless ZOS directly comments on a specific activity, which I have not seen them do In this instance.

Also, you second to last paragraph is based on an assumption that is certainly not true of everyone, and concludes with a pretty selfish position. Yes it’s a random group finder, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be considerate if for example people want to clear trash or do a quest.

One specific problem with this method is that you remove the voice that ZOS intentionally gave everyone in group finder, which is to vote kick people if the group doesn’t like how they are acting.

Again I have no problem with people doing this. The post is about whether not ZOS views it as exploiting and potentially could take action.

Don't act like you have no problem with people doing this. From all your posts it is pretty clear you picked a side so stop pretending you are being impartial.

As for ZOS giving everyone voice in group finder, the 'voice' isnt eliminated as Zos is technically giving accounts the ability to vote not the players so if you have 2 accounts you have 2 votes. It isn't any different to queuing with another friend.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am just curious whether a report would turn into a sanction, and you are frankly not the authority on that.

Oh none of us are the authority on that and I never said I have the authority either.

[snip] If you are genuinely just curious and do not value other's input, go email zos customer support and ask directly

[Edited to remove Baiting]