Do you wish Malacath was removed?

  • Sangwyne
    Sangwyne
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    Nah, just nerf it a bit
    Many others have given their input or crunched the numbers and come to the same conclusion that I have; Malacath is simply overtuned. I don't want to see content removed from the game, even if it's a source of contention, but balance must be struck, and as a tank main it's getting really tiresome to be burdened with yet more nerfs because PvP players have found a way to exploit Malacath and heavy armor to maximize their damage and resistances and pay hardly no opportunity cost in doing so. Your average crit build in PvE has tough choices to make; they need to determine how much penetration is being brought to bear against a boss, figure out how much uptime they have on Minor Force and Major Force from Warhorn in order to figure out what the breakpoints for critical damage vs critical chance are and then see which Mundus Stone they need to take, whether Mother's Sorrow or Medusa or Tzogvin's or Advancing Yokeda would be the superior option, etc etc. In PvP? Just slot Malacath, invest absolutely nothing in critical chance or damage and outdamage those that do invest while ignoring an entire amor trait (Impenetrable) and still being able to critically heal. Not to mention that Malacath also boosts proc sets, which critical damage does not. It's pretty frustrating when the solution to many of these issues has been staring us in the face and PvP players that exploit these strategies try to deflect blame on different aspects of the game like tanks in PvE; Malacath needs a nerf from 25% to maybe 20%. Arctic Blast needs to be split up into two skills; no one skill should provide a 25%HP burst heal, a 15%HP heal over time, an AOE DOT with 300% chance to apply Chill, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% crit damage and Glacial Presence for another 10% critical damage and healing, AND also an unblockable, AOE 4 second stun in one button press. Ludicrous. Streak needs to ramp up in cost by 50% instead of 33% when used in rapid succession to prevent sorcerers from simply waltzing away anytime they don't wish to fight. Mist Form should also ramp up in cost- both allow their users to pick and choose their battles and dictate the course of a fight at little to no risk for themselves. Battle Spirit's penalty to healing should apply to health recovery just like Major/Minor Defile currently do. And both Necro's Ravenous Goliath and Vampire's Blood Scion forms need to be addressed to prevent the ultimate from being used to simply reset the fight entirely and go from halfway dead to full HP. These changes have been a long time coming and the reason they haven't yet been implemented is because the players that are aware of them have leveraged them to their advantage and purposefully let them fly under the radar while throwing other aspects of the game under the bus.
    Edited by Sangwyne on March 4, 2021 4:08AM
  • orion_1981usub17_ESO
    orion_1981usub17_ESO
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    Yes, please remove it
    All the mythics should be removed, they were completely determental to the balance of the game. Single item bonuses that reshape the very rules... honestly someone wasn't thinking straight that day.

    In any rpg, but mostly d&d it's best to avoid monty haul rewards, and if you do give the players overpowered items that ruin the game the dungeon master must admit his mistake and remove the imbalanced items in the most delicate way.

    Same rules need to apply here, or broken up into three piece items sets that give the same benefit. But as singular items they're too great of power for no sacrifice.
  • Ryuvain
    Ryuvain
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    Yes, please remove it
    Why even build for crit when you can get equivalent stats on a single ring, and then get even more stats? Makes khajiit useless for the most part.
    That one khajiit obsessed with werewolf behemoth and vampire lord. Lady Thorn is bae, dont @ me.
    Werewolf behemoth=vampire lord>blood scion>werewolf>vampire.
  • Sahidom
    Sahidom
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    Bring other sets up to par with it it. Don't need to nerf everything strong, just bring other things up to its power level.

    I disagree here. You don't want ZOS running this rat race tweaking sets left right over one item.
  • Sheezabeast
    Sheezabeast
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    Other
    Sahidom wrote: »
    Bring other sets up to par with it it. Don't need to nerf everything strong, just bring other things up to its power level.

    I disagree here. You don't want ZOS running this rat race tweaking sets left right over one item.

    But they've done nothing but nerf everything for years! A set is suddenly overperforming? NERF! An ability is good in a skill tree? NERF! The answer to everything can't be to nerf nerf nerf. If they start raising the bar for everything instead of lowering everything, it will improve everything overall.
    Grand Master Crafter, Beta baby who grew with the game. PC/NA. @Sheezabeast if you have crafting needs!
  • WiredandTired
    WiredandTired
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    Nah, just nerf it a bit
    Sangwyne wrote: »
    Many others have given their input or crunched the numbers and come to the same conclusion that I have; Malacath is simply overtuned. I don't want to see content removed from the game, even if it's a source of contention, but balance must be struck, and as a tank main it's getting really tiresome to be burdened with yet more nerfs because PvP players have found a way to exploit Malacath and heavy armor to maximize their damage and resistances and pay hardly no opportunity cost in doing so. Your average crit build in PvE has tough choices to make; they need to determine how much penetration is being brought to bear against a boss, figure out how much uptime they have on Minor Force and Major Force from Warhorn in order to figure out what the breakpoints for critical damage vs critical chance are and then see which Mundus Stone they need to take, whether Mother's Sorrow or Medusa or Tzogvin's or Advancing Yokeda would be the superior option, etc etc. In PvP? Just slot Malacath, invest absolutely nothing in critical chance or damage and outdamage those that do invest while ignoring an entire amor trait (Impenetrable) and still being able to critically heal. Not to mention that Malacath also boosts proc sets, which critical damage does not. It's pretty frustrating when the solution to many of these issues has been staring us in the face and PvP players that exploit these strategies try to deflect blame on different aspects of the game like tanks in PvE; Malacath needs a nerf from 25% to maybe 20%. Arctic Blast needs to be split up into two skills; no one skill should provide a 25%HP burst heal, a 15%HP heal over time, an AOE DOT with 300% chance to apply Chill, Minor Maim, Minor Brittle for 10% crit damage and Glacial Presence for another 10% critical damage and healing, AND also an unblockable, AOE 4 second stun in one button press. Ludicrous. Streak needs to ramp up in cost by 50% instead of 33% when used in rapid succession to prevent sorcerers from simply waltzing away anytime they don't wish to fight. Mist Form should also ramp up in cost- both allow their users to pick and choose their battles and dictate the course of a fight at little to no risk for themselves. Battle Spirit's penalty to healing should apply to health recovery just like Major/Minor Defile currently do. And both Necro's Ravenous Goliath and Vampire's Blood Scion forms need to be addressed to prevent the ultimate from being used to simply reset the fight entirely and go from halfway dead to full HP. These changes have been a long time coming and the reason they haven't yet been implemented is because the players that are aware of them have leveraged them to their advantage and purposefully let them fly under the radar while throwing other aspects of the game under the bus.

    Needed to requote and emphasize this is a pretty damn good summation of all the imbalanced and overpowered abilities and item interactions that currently exist in the game from a PvP point of view. I agree Malacath is not the only offender. I doubt doing these blanket stat additions and +spell damage and weapon damage will do much to the current meta except force people to build even tankier.

    Playing procs alone without malacath is already strong, my own preference is that either malacath doesn't buff procs or the % is moved down to 15-20% if they do. High passive stackable/burst damage with gear sets like Syvarra, Unfathomable, Vateshran Inferno/2H, Zaan, Unleashed, Maelstrom 2H etc...is forcing folks to be ultra tanky or run mist form. Nobody wants to instantly die...so both ends need to be adjusted, easy ability to build tanky and ability to stack damage procs both DoT and Burst.

    I would also add that certain base classes and magicka specs or abilities need to be revamped to allow a similarly good toolkit to stam classes. Having procs carry certain specs instead of a good base toolkit pidgeon holes classes into certain gear setups and is a terrible way to balance this game.
    Edited by WiredandTired on March 4, 2021 5:30AM
  • spartaxoxo
    spartaxoxo
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    No, it's fine!
    Avalon wrote: »
    Ok... I've just been looking at this ring, wondering if it was worth using. I've been told by many others it isn't that great, and, here, I'm seeing people asking for it to be nerfed? What's up? How is it powerful? Please advise!

    It's good in PvP because proc sets cannot crit anyway, and nobody builds for crit due to impenetrable trait and other anti-crit building being a natural part of pvp. So it's just a straight buff to the damage they tend to dish out.

    In PvE it's not good because building for crit outperforms by quite a lot.
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    No, it's fine!
    All is good with it.

    What trully is OP is veteshrain destro.

    I do not use it, but if some change to malakath i will, zaan or veteshrain destro works even better for me.
    Edited by AyaDark on March 4, 2021 6:39AM
  • kaisernick
    kaisernick
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    No, it's fine!
    honestly i think the best soloution which yes may *** some ppl of but in the end i think is the only way to settle this is...
    legendaries no loner work in pvp and only in pve settings.

    yes i know this means all pvp players (myself included) will be angry over farming that gear for nothing but this is what happens when you bring in powerful artifacts like this, hell legion had the exact same problem.

    this would also solve any problems with poor performing pve legen, as they could be buffed to make them worth using but not vital.
  • L_Nici
    L_Nici
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    Nah, just nerf it a bit
    It can stay as it is. The only Nerf I would put into is that it shouldn't work on Procs.
    PC|EU
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    No, it's fine!
    L_Nici wrote: »
    It can stay as it is. The only Nerf I would put into is that it shouldn't work on Procs.

    Why ?

    You can change it with one more proc than and nothing changed.

    What is better ? Have 2 procs + malacath or 3 procs ?

    Some people ask for changes they even do not understand.

    And even more funny thing is - if enemy have 2 proc sets that you can negate with 1 purge and he have 10 times CD while he is not strong - all argument i will get will be:
    "I do not want slot purge"?
  • L_Nici
    L_Nici
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    Nah, just nerf it a bit
    @AyaDark You answered yourself. If you have 3 Procs its hard to hit them at once to balance out the damage from 2+Malacath since your enemy can purge and heal. You would reduce the initial burstdamage which is the biggest problem with the procs because on some you can't even react. If Malacath doesn't work on Procs especially tanks would loose a lot of burst and healing in case of Crimson btw (Crimson heals for all damage done so 25% more damage done means 25% more healing done so you essentially get 50% out of Malacath there). Removing Malcaths effect on Procs would reduce 2 problems at once, the tankmeta and the procdamage. To quote a post from last year: Proc sets can't crit and they are not affected by your max stats, but they are buffed by penetration and multipliers, the most notorious one is Malacath which cant crit anyways. This allows to build a heavy tank without spending ressources in max stats and still deal insane proc damage
    Edited by L_Nici on March 4, 2021 12:33PM
    PC|EU
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    No, it's fine!
    L_Nici wrote: »
    @AyaDark You answered yourself. If you have 3 Procs its hard to hit them at once to balance out the damage from 2+Malacath since your enemy can purge and heal. You would reduce the initial burstdamage which is the biggest problem with the procs because on some you can't even react. If Malacath doesn't work on Procs especially tanks would loose a lot of burst and healing in case of Crimson btw (Crimson heals for all damage done so 25% more damage done means 25% more healing done so you essentially get 50% out of Malacath there). Removing Malcaths effect on Procs would kill 2 problems at once, the tankmeta and the procdamage. Also since Procs can't crit by nature Malacath+2 procs is always bis.

    I have no problem with Crimson in first place.

    And if take sets effects:

    Veteshrain strike 2 k+
    Some proc set strike 2k+

    If he has 2 procs and malacath, he do ot use 1 set.

    Zaan + veteshrain with out malacath and 1 proc will do 6k + dps to me.

    While Any 2 procs and malacath only 4k+25%.

    And i am not some sorc who can just streak out, so i better get 5 kdps from malakat user than 6 k from malakat free one.
  • L_Nici
    L_Nici
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    Nah, just nerf it a bit
    @AyaDark How about building for damage and work for it instead of just using Malacath to buff your damage you don't even deserve? There is nothing more braindead than stacking Procs with Malacath, its free damage to no downside at all since you could never crit anyway.
    PC|EU
  • wazzz56
    wazzz56
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    I read this looking for somebody to turn this into a pve vs pvp post..didn't take long to find...just tone it down with the buffing of procs , will help a lot with the current proctopalypse and would tone down the ww tank crimson meta...both of which are not good for the game at their current stage imho
    GM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild


    "After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."
  • Mythreindeer
    Mythreindeer
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    Yes, please remove it
    All the mythics should be removed, they were completely determental to the balance of the game. Single item bonuses that reshape the very rules... honestly someone wasn't thinking straight that day.

    In any rpg, but mostly d&d it's best to avoid monty haul rewards, and if you do give the players overpowered items that ruin the game the dungeon master must admit his mistake and remove the imbalanced items in the most delicate way.

    Same rules need to apply here, or broken up into three piece items sets that give the same benefit. But as singular items they're too great of power for no sacrifice.

    Agreed. Adding these OP items always blows up balance. Nerfing Crit and adjusting damage up on sets would have been a better way to do this. But then I guess there would be nothing good in the antiquities to persue.

    Ugh...MMO
  • IAmIcehouse
    IAmIcehouse
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    Yes, please remove it
    It will obviously never be removed but I can dream.

    In NoCP PvP, base crit dmg is ~31% (base crit resist, no Impen. With Impen, it's <18%, IIRC). And stacking crit dmg is rarely feasible in NoCP.

    For one item slot, you get 25% dmg modifier that is not impacted by crit resistance, so frankly, against many builds which still run Impen, malacath hits harder than base crits, and has a 100% chance to land. I just don't get how adding base crit resistance and this item made any sense to those implementing.

    Malacath won't ever be removed, I get that. So at least rework it so it's like malacath cuts your total critical dmg modifier by 50% but raises crit rate to 100%. Still unique. Could be fun to use, still strong, opens ability for niche builds. Not oppressive, still counter able by Impen, and not must run on literally everything NoCP PvP.
    Edited by IAmIcehouse on March 4, 2021 6:53PM
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    If Malacath didn't buff procs, would we be in a Caluurion's and Hunter's Venom meta?
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    If it's ok to link to other threads, maybe answer that question at the link below. I think I've asked this question a few times in other threads and never gotten a reply.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563782/if-malacath-didnt-buff-procs-would-we-be-in-a-caluurions-and-hunters-venom-meta#latest
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Pauwer
    Pauwer
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    No, it's fine!
    It's fine. I took it off from my chars and like them better without. But i don't see why others shouldn't use it if they want to. If i lose a fight, i would have lost it anyways, be there ring involved or not.
  • caperb
    caperb
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    Yes, please remove it
    I want it to go even though I use it on a lot of builds atm.

    And don't blame PvP players for asking unbalanced things to be removed, when ZOS was warned about its imbalance and possible solutions before it's release. Who uses Malacath in PvE anyway?
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