If Malacath didn't buff procs, would we be in a Caluurion's and Hunter's Venom meta?

Urzigurumash · March 2021

I'm not calling for nerfs to these sets or saying they're overpowered in the greater context, but I don't know the answer to this question.

Jameson18 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not calling for nerfs to these sets or saying they're overpowered in the greater context, but I don't know the answer to this question.

Doesn't Caluurion's require a crit?

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Jameson18 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not calling for nerfs to these sets or saying they're overpowered in the greater context, but I don't know the answer to this question.

Doesn't Caluurion's require a crit?

Yeah, hence the question. They both do. I see many players running these sets now, Caluurion's is much more popular now than it ever was, so they obviously perform well without Malacath. They are the only proc sets we can be sure are being ran for their competitive edge over stats sets without a buff from Malacath.*

I know Hunter's Venom is new and Caluurion's was recently improved, so maybe these sets always would've been this popular with or without a proc meta, but I'm not sure, since I don't really play the sorts of builds that use these sets.

Edit: * I haven't seen anybody running Defiler, Scavenging Demise, or obviously, Vicecannon of Venom, which I think are the only other 3 damage proc sets which proc off a Crit

Augusten15 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Jameson18 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not calling for nerfs to these sets or saying they're overpowered in the greater context, but I don't know the answer to this question.

Doesn't Caluurion's require a crit?

Yeah, hence the question. They both do. I see many players running these sets now, Caluurion's is much more popular now than it ever was, so they obviously perform well without Malacath. They are the only proc sets we can be sure are being ran for their competitive edge over stats sets without a buff from Malacath.

I know Hunter's Venom is new and Caluurion's was recently improved, so maybe these sets always would've been this popular with or without a proc meta, but I'm not sure, since I don't really play the sorts of builds that use these sets.

So the question is with Mala, Caluur, and Venom being strong.. if we nerf Mala (reduce the amount of damage sources it applies to).. would Caluur and Venom become less "meta"?

I think the answer is no but I'm also confused by the question.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Yeah let me try to rephrase.

Since Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's cannot be buffed by Malacath, but are almost as popular as any proc set which is buffed by Malacath, if Malacath no longer buffed those other proc sets, would everybody be in Caluurion's or Hunter's Venom?

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Or, are they strictly popular because they interact well with Sorc and NB? Why are they both more popular on these classes than stats sets? I have some ideas as to maybe why, but with little experience on ranged builds, Sorc, or NB, I'm not sure.

This is just a contemplation on the idea that it is strictly Malacath's interaction with procs which drives the meta in PvP. I'm not saying that's not the case, but I haven't had the popularity of these sets explained to me by those knowledgeable about the sorts of builds to which these sets adapt well.

jaws343 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Or, are they strictly popular because they interact well with Sorc and NB? Why are they both more popular on these classes than stats sets? I have some ideas as to maybe why, but with little experience on ranged builds, Sorc, or NB, I'm not sure.

This is just a contemplation on the idea that it is strictly Malacath's interaction with procs which drives the meta in PvP. I'm not saying that's not the case, but I haven't had the popularity of these sets explained to me by those knowledgeable about the sorts of builds to which these sets adapt well.

I like Caal on sorc for the added burst. You can time your burst with a Caal proc and wipe players.

Caal is in a good spot though. It is dodgeable and requires some skill to use it effectively. Plus it's proc requirements are restrictive enough to keep it from being a mindless proc.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Caal is in a good spot though.

Sure, I'm not arguing for these sets to be nerfed or even looked at. I understand since you need crit to proc them, they don't work well in Heavy, so they don't work well with HP-scaled heals, HP Regen, high health pools, all these things that are now so popular and which didn't used to be so popular.

Again this is just a contemplation rather than something I think will bring us to any definitive conclusions. The question is, say Malacath no longer buffs procs. What happens to the masses in Crimson? Do they ditch their Crimson and put back on stats sets? Do they put on Hunter's Venom and a bow, or Caluurion's and a flame staff? Do they keep using the proc sets which were buffed by Malacath, but just deal 25% less damage? Which of these is most likely?

Sanctum74 · March 2021

They weren’t meta before malacath why would they be if it was removed?

Urzigurumash · March 2021

Sanctum74 wrote: »

They weren’t meta before malacath why would they be if it was removed?

Why is Caluurion's so much more popular now in the Malacath era? Just because of its recent revisions? This is the third most frequent proc in my recaps in BGs, after Vat 2h and Vat Destro, but it used to only be seen occasionally. Again I'm not saying it's OP compared to other proc sets, just that it's almost as popular as any proc set, and it doesn't work with Malacath. So what gives? Is it just because Sorc and NB are popular and are reluctant to ditch their crit-related class tools in favor of the putatively stronger Malacath setups? If Malacath were no longer able to buff procs, does everybody park their tank and pick up their Sorc or NB so they can most effectively use Caluurion's or Hunter's Venom?

Of course I understand besides their crit passives, NB has a weaker HP scaled heal than Warden, DK, Sorc, and Necro (if enough corpses are around for Deaden Pain / Necrotic Potency, I don't think Scythe is remotely reliable)

jaws343 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

They weren’t meta before malacath why would they be if it was removed?

Why is Caluurion's so much more popular now in the Malacath era? Just because of its recent revisions? This is the third most frequent proc in my recaps in BGs, after Vat 2h and Vat Destro, but it used to only be seen occasionally. Again I'm not saying it's OP compared to other proc sets, just that it's almost as popular as any proc set, and it doesn't work with Malacath. So what gives? Is it just because Sorc and NB are popular and are reluctant to ditch their crit-related class tools in favor of the putatively stronger Malacath setups? If Malacath were no longer able to buff procs, does everybody park their tank and pick up their Sorc or NB so they can most effectively use Caluurion's or Hunter's Venom?

Of course I understand besides their crit passives, NB has a weaker HP scaled heal than Warden, DK, Sorc, and Necro, if enough corpses are around.

It's popular because in order to keep up with other proc builds most players are running procs. Now Sorcs and NBs can run alternative mythics and still be viable without needing to have 40k health. Sorcs because of shields and NBs because of stealth. So they can avoid needing malacath and still have strong normal skills while running only 1 proc.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

It's popular because in order to keep up with other proc builds most players are running procs..

Ok, so what happens when other proc builds lose 25% of their damage?

jaws343 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's popular because in order to keep up with other proc builds most players are running procs..

Ok, so what happens when other proc builds lose 25% of their damage?

Who knows? What does it really matter?

Either way, procs won't be needed just to compete. They'll be useful for more specialized builds but not a must have. A lot of players do not like playing with then but do to stay competitive.

This isn't even a thing that is happening so speculating on what the meta will be in a hypothetical future is pretty meaningless. All I can speak to is why they are used when Malacath doesn't work woth them.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Who knows? What does it really matter?

Either way, procs won't be needed just to compete. They'll be useful for more specialized builds but not a must have. A lot of players do not like playing with then but do to stay competitive.

This isn't even a thing that is happening so speculating on what the meta will be in a hypothetical future is pretty meaningless. All I can speak to is why they are used when Malacath doesn't work woth them.

Many have complaints about the ability of Malacath to buff procs, generally predicated on the idea that since procs can't crit, Malacath shouldn't buff them. Why have any discussions about balance if there isn't an eye towards what would happen after the balance adjustment is made?

jaws343 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Who knows? What does it really matter?

Either way, procs won't be needed just to compete. They'll be useful for more specialized builds but not a must have. A lot of players do not like playing with then but do to stay competitive.

This isn't even a thing that is happening so speculating on what the meta will be in a hypothetical future is pretty meaningless. All I can speak to is why they are used when Malacath doesn't work woth them.

Many have complaints about the ability of Malacath to buff procs, generally predicated on the idea that since procs can't crit, Malacath shouldn't buff them. Why have any discussions about balance if there isn't an eye towards what would happen after the balance adjustment is made?

So look at pvp builds from a year ago and there is your answer. Some people will run procs. Some won't. No one would be viable in full proc full defense. We know exactly how players would build without Malacath working with procs since we were already playing the game like that before Malacath existed.

Urzigurumash · March 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

So look at pvp builds from a year ago and there is your answer. Some people will run procs. Some won't. No one would be viable in full proc full defense. We know exactly how players would build without Malacath working with procs since we were already playing the game like that before Malacath existed.

Wrong, Hunter's Venom and Malacath are both from Update 26, and Caluurion's was improved in Update 27.

That's what I'm asking. Is this set just so popular now because of the below changes, and does its popularity have anything to do with Malacath whatsoever? If both of these sets are more popular than stats sets, and the only reason other proc sets are popular is because Malacath buffs them, then if Malacath doesn't buff those procs, why would anyone wear stats sets over these 2 sets?

Caluurion's, Update 27:

Slightly increased the travel speed of the projectiles from this set.
Reduced the minimum travel time to 750ms, down from 900ms.
Increased the damage done to 14200, up from 12900.
This set no longer excludes non Magicka oriented attacks to proc its condition.

Fawn4287 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Or, are they strictly popular because they interact well with Sorc and NB? Why are they both more popular on these classes than stats sets? I have some ideas as to maybe why, but with little experience on ranged builds, Sorc, or NB, I'm not sure.

This is just a contemplation on the idea that it is strictly Malacath's interaction with procs which drives the meta in PvP. I'm not saying that's not the case, but I haven't had the popularity of these sets explained to me by those knowledgeable about the sorts of builds to which these sets adapt well.

These are already classes with an incredibly fast and strong burst combo, the near permanent tank is spurred on because of sets like caluurions and kjalnars pumping out the obscene ult like damage with every burst combo, I mean who’s going to run around with 24k health when you can get hit by 2 damage sets 1 ult and a skill for over 30k damage?

Augusten15 · March 2021

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yeah let me try to rephrase.

Since Hunter's Venom and Caluurion's cannot be buffed by Malacath, but are almost as popular as any proc set which is buffed by Malacath, if Malacath no longer buffed those other proc sets, would everybody be in Caluurion's or Hunter's Venom?

Prevalence might increase a tad and you'd see a lot more monster sets proccing without it but they do have weaknesses. Caluur gives a nice damage boost every 10 seconds but it's basically broadcasted at range to be dodged. Venom can be purged and is on the longer CD side for damage procs.