Group Finder Hack, Against TOS?
Oreyn_Bearclaw
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Saw an interesting one the other day. Queue for Random Normal as DPS (I have ESO+). To my great surprise, I get FG1. Upon entering, get a message from the tank that says "leave the healer behind", and he takes off. Healer was a very low level. Tank did the typical FG1 Skips, and was certainly built as a DPS designed for a fast clear.
What I am assuming is going on is that the person in question used two accounts. The first account was clearly without ESO+ and a low level character, that they grouped with their main account (max CP, and presumably ESO+). This ensures one of only a handful of dungeons, and because they make up half the group, there is no way to kick either player. This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue (assuming you queue as a support role on each).
Anyone else seen this? Part of me was moderately annoyed, part of me thought it was genius. Do you think it violates any TOS? It certainly didnt appear that he was controlling both accounts simultaneously or anything like that. It was FG1, so its not exactly hard solo quickly by yourself, and I don't believe the healer moved an inch during the actual dungeon.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 4, 2021 6:20PM What I am assuming is going on is that the person in question used two accounts. The first account was clearly without ESO+ and a low level character, that they grouped with their main account (max CP, and presumably ESO+). This ensures one of only a handful of dungeons, and because they make up half the group, there is no way to kick either player. This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue (assuming you queue as a support role on each).
Anyone else seen this? Part of me was moderately annoyed, part of me thought it was genius. Do you think it violates any TOS? It certainly didnt appear that he was controlling both accounts simultaneously or anything like that. It was FG1, so its not exactly hard solo quickly by yourself, and I don't believe the healer moved an inch during the actual dungeon.
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etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭More likely I'd think it was a friend or guild mate who was taking a break. It's routine to run crystal farming with people taking it in turns to be the low level. I've also run farming runs with a low level who just wanted to explore the dungeon in peace to learn the map and/or pick up books.
Too many toons not enough time10 -
Simon_111✭✭It's a fairly common strategy, I do it with some of my guildies. 1 person carries while the other goes afk on a low level or a char that can't do anything. Easy way of getting crystals/xp with low effort.DK main, 46k+ achievement points.4 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That would be up to ZOS, specifically their ToS team. If you suspect it might qualify, you can report it. The team considers whether it is a violation and can look at whether the same person has been reported previously for the same behavior.
Being logged in to two accounts at once isn’t per se a violation, but using that (or teaming up with a friend who AFKs) to force the game to choose an easy dungeon while taking spots in the queue away from active players could be construed as an exploit.
To be clear, I’m not talking about people who choose to team up with a low-level toon to get an easier dungeon when everyone plays, but a case where one toon is AFK or not moving at all. That spot could have gone to another player who is waiting to do a dungeon, one who would actually have played in some sense of the word.4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That would be up to ZOS, specifically their ToS team. If you suspect it might qualify, you can report it. The team considers whether it is a violation and can look at whether the same person has been reported previously for the same behavior.
Being logged in to two accounts at once isn’t per se a violation, but using that (or teaming up with a friend who AFKs) to force the game to choose an easy dungeon while taking spots in the queue away from active players could be construed as an exploit.
To be clear, I’m not talking about people who choose to team up with a low-level toon to get an easier dungeon when everyone plays, but a case where one toon is AFK or not moving at all. That spot could have gone to another player who is waiting to do a dungeon, one who would actually have played in some sense of the word.
That is really what I was getting at. The TOS can be interpreted fairly broadly in terms of what might be an exploit. I could certainly make the argument that you are doing something unintended to give an easy benefit that is arguably at the detriment of other players.
I didnt report, because truthfully, I don't really care. I was in the queue for the same reason, easy transmutes. Probably smarter to not even say anything at the beginning of the dungeon. Just take off and solo it, not like you could be kicked if you control half the group. You would appear more like a jerk than an exploiter. HahaEdited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 4, 2021 6:51PM2 -
madman65✭✭✭✭I don`t mind a low level in the group, I just want them to do what they qued for. Yesterday in COA II, we had a dps just run through a bunch of mobs by their self. Me and the other 2 players just stopped where we`re at and waited. DPS ended up dyeing and we went about doing it normally.4 -
Jeffrey530✭✭✭✭How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day7 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭From the Code of Conduct
5.2 In relation to online/competitive games, you will not exploit any bug, or abuse any game system (such as the scoring or award systems) in a ZeniMax game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax.
Internet definition of exploit (not defined in TOS to my knowledge)
As a verb, exploit commonly means to selfishly take advantage of someone in order to profit from them or otherwise benefit oneself.
Coming from a lawyer that deals with statutory construction for a living: the group finder is a game system (with an award system). I would doing something that is certainly unintended for my benefit, at the expense of others. The spot of my alt is not going to someone else that otherwise would have wanted the dungeon. In other words, you are likely delaying the queue to some degree. It would also force an excess amount of FG1s and the like on players that may actually be there to play the dungeons and not just farm transmute and XP.
Sure it might be a bit of a stretch as the damaged individual is a bit hard to specifically identify, but I have seen bigger stretches carry the day in a court room.
Clearly it's up to ZOS to enforce or make a determination. I know people that will specifically use low level alts to help get easy crystals, but this is the first time I have seen one that was simply AFK on purpopse.5 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
According to what ZOS have said on the forum in the past, you can run two accounts in order to log them in separately, or to log both in so as to trade between them, but you can't run both actively at the same time - and if they are both queued for a dungeon and then both characters are present in the same dungeon that would suggest to me that both accounts are active. However, that is simply answering your question as it seems unlikely that this is what the OP is reporting.2 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6488114/#Comment_6488114
This was probably the most detailed explanation we’ve gotten on appropriate behavior with two accounts.
It seems they don’t want people actively playing both accounts at the exact same time, and if you’re going to leave one of your accounts AFK, that can still fall into the category of violating ToS as Oreyn pointed out.
ETA: there’s also this: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/23701/~/can-i-multibox-in-the-elder-scrolls-online?
Queueing with both accounts at the same time would easily be considered “playing” them simultaneously.Edited by virtus753 on March 4, 2021 7:31PM2 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Saw an interesting one the other day. Queue for Random Normal as DPS (I have ESO+). To my great surprise, I get FG1. Upon entering, get a message from the tank that says "leave the healer behind", and he takes off. Healer was a very low level. Tank did the typical FG1 Skips, and was certainly built as a DPS designed for a fast clear.
What I am assuming is going on is that the person in question used two accounts. The first account was clearly without ESO+ and a low level character, that they grouped with their main account (max CP, and presumably ESO+). This ensures one of only a handful of dungeons, and because they make up half the group, there is no way to kick either player. This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue (assuming you queue as a support role on each).
Anyone else seen this? Part of me was moderately annoyed, part of me thought it was genius. Do you think it violates any TOS? It certainly didnt appear that he was controlling both accounts simultaneously or anything like that. It was FG1, so its not exactly hard solo quickly by yourself, and I don't believe the healer moved an inch during the actual dungeon.
there's an assumption there.. I might have chatted the person up to find out more. I assume PC yes?
IDk, I kinda like it because of the ESO+ dungeon penalty 9which i should NOT have to describe at this point).0 -
Eedat✭✭✭✭✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
I mean I don't think you have "every right" to queue for group content then afk lol. Personally in this case I wouldn't care because I don't have to run a marathon in LoM again.2 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭etchedpixels wrote: »More likely I'd think it was a friend or guild mate who was taking a break. It's routine to run crystal farming with people taking it in turns to be the low level. I've also run farming runs with a low level who just wanted to explore the dungeon in peace to learn the map and/or pick up books.
ran into this last night when "BLACKHEART" came up as a random... some guy was shepherding players though, and told the others to leave me because I needed the quest on my alt. No prob, it was my stamsorc, but it was clearly some kinda organized group.0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don`t mind a low level in the group, I just want them to do what they qued for. Yesterday in COA II, we had a dps just run through a bunch of mobs by their self. Me and the other 2 players just stopped where we`re at and waited. DPS ended up dyeing and we went about doing it normally.
I break for lowbees, and for those that need the quest... and for chests, and heavy sacks.4 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭QuebraRegra wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Saw an interesting one the other day. Queue for Random Normal as DPS (I have ESO+). To my great surprise, I get FG1. Upon entering, get a message from the tank that says "leave the healer behind", and he takes off. Healer was a very low level. Tank did the typical FG1 Skips, and was certainly built as a DPS designed for a fast clear.
What I am assuming is going on is that the person in question used two accounts. The first account was clearly without ESO+ and a low level character, that they grouped with their main account (max CP, and presumably ESO+). This ensures one of only a handful of dungeons, and because they make up half the group, there is no way to kick either player. This would make for very fast transmutes as you could basically just cycle through characters on your main, and use your alt to force a specific and short dungeon with a very short queue (assuming you queue as a support role on each).
Anyone else seen this? Part of me was moderately annoyed, part of me thought it was genius. Do you think it violates any TOS? It certainly didnt appear that he was controlling both accounts simultaneously or anything like that. It was FG1, so its not exactly hard solo quickly by yourself, and I don't believe the healer moved an inch during the actual dungeon.
there's an assumption there.. I might have chatted the person up to find out more. I assume PC yes?
IDk, I kinda like it because of the ESO+ dungeon penalty 9which i should NOT have to describe at this point).
I am certainly assuming it was an alt account and not an AFK friend, but does that really change anything? It could be done either way. For the purposes of the discussion, I think it’s a safe assumption.
As said, it really doesn’t bother me (a small part has considered doing it myself). The ONLY reason I would ever bother with a normal dungeon is transmutes, and ESO+ is a huge drawback in this area. I would certainly advocate for the ability to disable ESO+, but that horse has been beaten pretty thoroughly.
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zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, having some long on to an level 10 join an group start an random dungeon then leave trough the door is legal.Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
According to what ZOS have said on the forum in the past, you can run two accounts in order to log them in separately, or to log both in so as to trade between them, but you can't run both actively at the same time - and if they are both queued for a dungeon and then both characters are present in the same dungeon that would suggest to me that both accounts are active. However, that is simply answering your question as it seems unlikely that this is what the OP is reporting.
You would normaly run this with 3 player + the lvl 10 fall guy. Benefit here is that the lvl 10 can be feeding horses and do research. Doing in on an second account on the laptop. Yes you can prove it but is it worth it?
Know people running second account to look at zone chat for enemy factions in Cyrodil.
However you do not want to do this with randoms, its like the old random FG 1 exploit, it was done for months, then it got well know and all starting doing it and doing it with pugs who was not doing random but an named normal dlc and ended up getting kicked or group disbanded and you got reports and complains.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's a fairly common strategy, I do it with some of my guildies. 1 person carries while the other goes afk on a low level or a char that can't do anything. Easy way of getting crystals/xp with low effort.
I don't understand how they ensure it's FG1? Because that's all the lowbee can queue for? But how is everyone else guaranteed to get that as their random selection.. Ah... because they are already grouped?
I';m really liking how that works I think (transmute farming)
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PaddyVu✭✭✭✭This is normal, for example is me, i said everyone in group just stay there and afk and have a coffee, i will clear dungeon for ya and they're happy, and i run random normal dungeon 10 times in about 2 hours and get 10 crystal and they are happy to have me clear for them. I love to save people time, they can do whatever they want while i'm soloing dungeon3 -
PaddyVu✭✭✭✭This is a common strategy, especially u can use vamp 4 to run pass all the mobs, if people run with u, it will just slow u down. There are a lot of bosses u can skip2
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is normal, for example is me, i said everyone in group just stay there and afk and have a coffee, i will clear dungeon for ya and they're happy, and i run random normal dungeon 10 times in about 2 hours and get 10 crystal and they are happy to have me clear for them. I love to save people time, they can do whatever they want while i'm soloing dungeon
Ha, Not everyone has your Solo skills @PaddyVu.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think calling it a "hack" is a big stretch of that word.
I think Hack in common vernacular can be used to describe a clever workaround to a problem. "Life Hacks" for example dont usually involve a fancy computer algorithm. This is a certainly a clever workaround to the problem of ESO+ transmute farming.2 -
Jeffrey530✭✭✭✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
I mean I don't think you have "every right" to queue for group content then afk lol. Personally in this case I wouldn't care because I don't have to run a marathon in LoM again.
Well I think I have the right to do so lol if I wish to afk. Whether it is the correct and considerate thing to do, probably not.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
I mean I don't think you have "every right" to queue for group content then afk lol. Personally in this case I wouldn't care because I don't have to run a marathon in LoM again.
Well I think I have the right to do so lol if I wish to afk. Whether it is the correct and considerate thing to do, probably not.
Well that really is the question, isnt it?. In an MMO, the devs are judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to your "rights". Pretty sure there is not a bill of rights in the TOS.
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deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, it uses one of the three options you have available with the group finder: pre-group prior to queueing.
The pre-group technique for fast-farming transmute crystals is used by friends/guildies but usually the 10th level mule drops group. That position can then be filled by another friend/guildie/random. If it's going to be all friend/guildie then the 10th level mule is kicked so their position can be filled by another friend/guildie and the mule can re-queue with another group. This is done as many times as needed to help out friends/guildies then another player takes over with the 10th level mule so the original mule player can get their crystals.
It guarantees, FG1,BC1 or spindle1 for maximum friend/guildie transmute crystal farming. Organising it can sometimes be a pain so sometimes the time saved is lost by players giving the "ready in 5mins" bs..... But when it works and for those players with strict time limits - parents of small kids notably - it's an absolute godsend for saving that often very limited game time.
Blame zos for not having a separate non-dlc queue which arguably penalises subscribers; if there wasn't such a high probability of getting a dlc dungeon for subscribers this kind of pre-group arrangement would not be necessary as most base game dungeons are pretty fast anyway (City of Ash 2 being a notable exception, even with skips).
ToS clarification (TLDR version: provided no automation, no apparent breach of ToS in OP's description):From multiboxing
OP describes the character as being static throughout so it would seem no breach of ToS.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote:Yes, you're correct. The part of multiboxing that violates our EULA and TOU is automated gameplay. Anything that automates gameplay for you is a bannable offense. If you're manually controlling characters on two accounts that are logged in at the same time, such as in the original poster's example, that's fine.
see also: multiple accounts at the same time
edit:formattingEdited by deleted221106-002999 on March 4, 2021 8:14PM8 -
Fennwitty✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is an excellent question, but it comes back to this: We need better ways to farm transmute crystals.
The absolute most effective option is daily random normals, which inherently involves other players.
Speed farmers and non-farmer players aren't there for the same reason. But they're both funneled into the same exact queue because that's all there is for the farmers right now.
Whether using a second account or an afk guild member, the point is some players are farming crystals without taking time to group with like-minded guildies, and when half the party wants to complete a dungeon for real (loot, fun, etc.) and the other half doesn't it makes one side upset.PC NA1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
According to what ZOS have said on the forum in the past, you can run two accounts in order to log them in separately, or to log both in so as to trade between them, but you can't run both actively at the same time - and if they are both queued for a dungeon and then both characters are present in the same dungeon that would suggest to me that both accounts are active. However, that is simply answering your question as it seems unlikely that this is what the OP is reporting.
From the previous explanations by ZOS I would say that "actively playing" mean controlling characters at the same time (moving, using skills, etc.), as that would imply third party tools or another form of automation (that is against ToS). Two characters in one dungeon when one is clearing a dungeon and another stands still is not both actively playing, it is one actively playing and another waiting for his share of time.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
deleted221106-002999✭✭✭✭✭
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According to what ZOS have said on the forum in the past, you can run two accounts in order to log them in separately, or to log both in so as to trade between them, but you can't run both actively at the same time - and if they are both queued for a dungeon and then both characters are present in the same dungeon that would suggest to me that both accounts are active. However, that is simply answering your question as it seems unlikely that this is what the OP is reporting.
@Tandor this is false - please see my post above, salient point quoted here for brevity:ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote:... If you're manually controlling characters on two accounts that are logged in at the same time, such as in the original poster's example, that's fine.
source: multiboxing edit: issue zos have with multiple accounts logged in concurrently is with automation
Again, as described by the OP, no breach of ToS seems evident since the 'healer left behind' was static throughout. In fairness, though, we don't know if it was actually the same player running multiple accounts or just a friend/guildie fast-queuing and then going afk.
Edited by deleted221106-002999 on March 4, 2021 8:29PM7 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, it uses one of the three options you have available with the group finder: pre-group prior to queueing.
The pre-group technique for fast-farming transmute crystals is used by friends/guildies but usually the 10th level mule drops group. That position can then be filled by another friend/guildie/random. If it's going to be all friend/guildie then the 10th level mule is kicked so their position can be filled by another friend/guildie and the mule can re-queue with another group. This is done as many times as needed to help out friends/guildies then another player takes over with the 10th level mule so the original mule player can get their crystals.
It guarantees, FG1,BC1 or spindle1 for maximum friend/guildie transmute crystal farming. Organising it can sometimes be a pain so sometimes the time saved is lost by players giving the "ready in 5mins" bs..... But when it works and for those players with strict time limits - parents of small kids notably - it's an absolute godsend for saving that often very limited game time.
Blame zos for not having a separate non-dlc queue which arguably penalises subscribers; if there wasn't such a high probability of getting a dlc dungeon for subscribers this kind of pre-group arrangement would not be necessary as most base game dungeons are pretty fast anyway (City of Ash 2 being a notable exception, even with skips).
ToS clarification (TLDR version: provided no automation, no apparent breach of ToS in OP's description):From multiboxing
OP describes the character as being static throughout so it would seem no breach of ToS.ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote:Yes, you're correct. The part of multiboxing that violates our EULA and TOU is automated gameplay. Anything that automates gameplay for you is a bannable offense. If you're manually controlling characters on two accounts that are logged in at the same time, such as in the original poster's example, that's fine.
see also: multiple accounts at the same time
edit:formatting
Well described, thankee.1 -
QuebraRegra✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is an excellent question, but it comes back to this: We need better ways to farm transmute crystals.
The absolute most effective option is daily random normals, which inherently involves other players.
Speed farmers and non-farmer players aren't there for the same reason. But they're both funneled into the same exact queue because that's all there is for the farmers right now.
Whether using a second account or an afk guild member, the point is some players are farming crystals without taking time to group with like-minded guildies, and when half the party wants to complete a dungeon for real (loot, fun, etc.) and the other half doesn't it makes one side upset.
i think BORGAL should give up some crystals from his daily as well...0 -
Jeffrey530✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Jeffrey530 wrote: »Jeffrey530 wrote: »How is an exploit when a person has two accounts? he has every right to queue for both of them at the same time and if everyone is happy with it + dungeon is cleared with relative ease. I can't see why this is detriment to other players since we don't have to compete to be the quickest to get all the transmute crystals or finish the most dallies in a day
I mean I don't think you have "every right" to queue for group content then afk lol. Personally in this case I wouldn't care because I don't have to run a marathon in LoM again.
Well I think I have the right to do so lol if I wish to afk. Whether it is the correct and considerate thing to do, probably not.
Well that really is the question, isnt it?. In an MMO, the devs are judge, jury, and executioner when it comes to your "rights". Pretty sure there is not a bill of rights in the TOS.
Yea so if I can do so (queue with 1 account, 2 accounts, 3 accounts), the devs have given me the right to do so until they say otherwise?
Even tho I don't have another account to queue like this, Imo this really isn't an exploit. All of your points are based on assumptions, I can argue having 1 more alt to queue in a way can speed up a queue rather than delaying it, players may perceive getting fg1 as a reward than a punishment (most probably since so many ppl complained eso+ made it worse for them when doing daillies).
It would be more of an issue if someone complained about the afk character whether it is a friend or alt and they refuse to kick. Ultimately it is down to the group whether they are happy to continue.
I don't even know why you made such a thread, so if zos confirmed this isn't allowed, are you gonna go around reporting everyone doing so just because they want to do fg1everyday? Honestly if I can get fg1 for daillies everyday i'll be so happy, if I wanna do other dungeons i'll just queue specifically for them. I can't imagine anyone seeing fg1 and complain why they didnt get lair of maarselok for a daily.1
