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The best way to remove META:
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Artorias24✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.2 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭@AyaDark my PC is not top tier too, I think.
For different situations, people swap their gear to reach best possible numbers and they do the math too. That's why they swap the gear. Math matters for people used to build a character in maximal effective way.Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
Spawniaq✭✭✭ok guys i am out. Leaving this thread, smells like Karen on the Keyboard, i guess you are right though @orion_1981usub17_ESOPs4 / Eu1 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭i dislike meta too but it's what the game demands on higher levels of content. You will not be able to do some dlc trials on hardmode without the best options available which most of the times are only a single option. Also meta builds are not necessarily thought, they are calculated and tested.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
EDIT: in 10 casts, not 10 seconds, my bad.
Skull is buffed by 10% because of engulfing (it is fire damage, not magic damage like ele). Also gives you cleave every third cast and 10% more crit on execute which is huge dps gain from passive. You cannot reliably compare two skills in total separation from everything because it bives you wrong results. Test like 10 casts of one skills vs 10 casts of another one won't give you any good results.2 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »Parsing tests your damage ceiling, under best possible circumstances. That's it. You can run 100+ parses, wait for your best crit luck, clip it, that's your DPS.
The game skill and knowledge needed to get an exceptional parse translates directly to trial effectiveness - which is the point.
Some people will not test some sets and combination becouse all want play META.
If it is some thing better - but people just can not learn it and combine it it will newer be better.
To get better you need to get EXP.
To get EXP you need walk to some where.
So to learn some thing in not standart way - you need to practice it.
If you not have enough people and practice you can not be better. Even with better idea and sets on paper.
So it can by even more effective - but not enough people to use it.
People just do not think that way.
May be they just thing that it is more effective - becouse god make it ?
No - just people train a lot and walk that way. If they do different way - may be a lot of different results will be and may be even better.
If you're referring to PvE - it's cut and dry, you're making your numbers beat predetermined NPC numbers. It's a static problem with static variables, patch-by-patch. It's not hard to figure out a "best" with some add-ons, and a 1-button rotation macro for utter consistency/variable elimination. Change 1 thing, test, change 1 thing, test, a best will be found.
The "EXP" situations you are talking about, have been tested. People do have EXP. A ton of it. With everything. There are spreadsheets with literally every set out there, tested with the results, you can find. Essentially every single set, rotation, and combination thereof, has been tested for effectiveness, no matter how many people use them normally. If they are not being used, it is because of testing, not because of people just deciding to ignore them. I think you're working under the assumption that ESO theorycrafters are leaving some things to chance, or ignoring some things. They aren't. They go to frankly absurd lengths to leave no stone unturned and test essentially every possibility, every patch. Because it's either that, or no Godslayer title for you.
Situationally, different contexts do have different builds and call for different skills and etc. There's a reason good trial runners have most-every single could maybe be useful set under the sun at the ready at all times.
PvP does get more wishy washy with the human element. What you're saying makes sense on that side of things.Edited by Blue_Radium on March 1, 2021 11:28AM1 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
EDIT: in 10 casts, not 10 seconds, my bad.
Skull is buffed by 10% because of engulfing (it is fire damage, not magic damage like ele). Also gives you cleave every third cast and 10% more crit on execute which is huge dps gain from passive. You cannot reliably compare two skills in total separation from everything because it bives you wrong results. Test like 10 casts of one skills vs 10 casts of another one won't give you any good results.
See, that should be mentioned in guides (looking at you guide creators :P). I thank you very kindly for explanation.
Do you occasionaly know why everyone goes with Skull instead Ele weapon in SOLO builds? Ele Weapon = 10% damage mitigation from passive, guaranteed random status effects, Orb passive, cheap because of passive. Skull = 10% more crit, but I can slot boneyard instead of harness magicka, cleave - very weak, it is not the full damage of the skull.Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 11:58AMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
SshadowSscale✭✭✭✭✭So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....4
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AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »I really feel this is a troll thread and anyone who has taken it seriously has been absolutely trolled. The arguments are contrary to the game mechanics, the demands are beyond woke and the spelling is atrocious. Please don't feed forum trolls. Meta exist, always will exist so long as multiple options are available.
A good analogy of the complaint against meta is a teenager complaining that they have to grow up and take responsibility for their lives... but they want to lounge around and eat garbage under their parents roof for ever... and its toxic to tell them to develop skills that are required for work. Then when they are 30, the post on life forums about how mean everyone is because they have no job.
Meta = logical deduction of risk vs benefits in regards to its problem solving capacity. Those against it are literally telling people not to think.
Logical deductions have different L and D - no L and D in the META short word
Just an exchange of real to not real like META always do.
Exchange real fights with hit dummy and etc.
The most funny thing is that:
As i say before - such peoples always think that they are better, but why do you think so ?
"teenager complaining", and etc like words lol.
It is funny that people think that they are so skilled and know how to play, only becouse they copy other succes partys sets lol.
But it do not make you better.
Only your own skill does.
And some one wright that:
Only if all 12 of you have META gear so only than, it will by the MOST effective.
So - all we must do, just do not take that 1 who want to by most effective, while other 12 do not.
As an example i easely can pass with the party with lower DPS, do not need tons of it.
First of all it is a game, game are created for fun.
It is not about fun for 1 or 2 party members. It is fun for all. So each member can play like he want, not like those 1-2 does.
The problem is that all such meta people can is only 1 strategy, they can not do anything else, so all they can is just DPS before something starts.
With no real skilled gameplay. With no game included.
But first of all you play game becouse it us fun. It is not a job you do not like and want to make fast to get money.
So such thoughts as you post can not be associated with it.0 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
EDIT: in 10 casts, not 10 seconds, my bad.
Skull is buffed by 10% because of engulfing (it is fire damage, not magic damage like ele). Also gives you cleave every third cast and 10% more crit on execute which is huge dps gain from passive. You cannot reliably compare two skills in total separation from everything because it bives you wrong results. Test like 10 casts of one skills vs 10 casts of another one won't give you any good results.
See, that should be mentioned in guides (looking at you, Alcast, Hack and other guide creators :P). I thank you very kindly for explanation.
Do you occasionaly know why everyone goes with Skull instead Ele weapon ? Ele Weapon = 10% damage mitigation from passive, guaranteed random status effects, Orb passive, cheap because of passive. Skull = 10% more crit, but I can slot boneyard instead of harness magicka, cleave - very weak, it is not the full damage of the skull.
10% damage reduction is for the time you cast or channel skill so for ele weapon which have instant cast time it is really small chance that you will get hit the exact moment you cast spammable. Like almost zero chances for that. This passives works well for channel toggle skills like acceleration/meditate.
For necro it is super easy to proc burning without ele, other effects also have small chance to apply so it isnt that beneficial on necro.
As for skull, fire damage is king, buffed by engulfing and in new patch it will be buffed even more by new monster set that adds 5% more damage to fire skills. And crit was and still be a king in pve. 10% more crit when you have crit damage buffs from horn, brittle, catalyst (all of that during execute when bloodthirsty traits gives you huge boost) easily outperforms orb passive (unless execute is super short, like couple seconds).
As for shield, most ppl use backbar block with channeled if fight requires having small shield and you dont have space to put harness (most fights you can do without any shield at all)0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭@AyaDark my PC is not top tier too, I think.
For different situations, people swap their gear to reach best possible numbers and they do the math too. That's why they swap the gear. Math matters for people used to build a character in maximal effective way.
Do not you need time to change gear ?
And it is true that some times different sets and skills is better.
But how often will you change it.
If party need to wait some one 20 minutes each time he change sets for each ADD, it is not most effective too.
Most effective way may be is even do not play - what is most effective ?
Game is for fun, do you get all of it from the game ? Or do not. Is it effective ?
Effective for what purpose in a first place ? For what END task ?
Some thing can not be MOST EFFECTIVE - if no conditions - for what END purpose it must be.0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
EDIT: in 10 casts, not 10 seconds, my bad.
Skull is buffed by 10% because of engulfing (it is fire damage, not magic damage like ele). Also gives you cleave every third cast and 10% more crit on execute which is huge dps gain from passive. You cannot reliably compare two skills in total separation from everything because it bives you wrong results. Test like 10 casts of one skills vs 10 casts of another one won't give you any good results.
See, that should be mentioned in guides (looking at you, Alcast, Hack and other guide creators :P). I thank you very kindly for explanation.
Do you occasionaly know why everyone goes with Skull instead Ele weapon ? Ele Weapon = 10% damage mitigation from passive, guaranteed random status effects, Orb passive, cheap because of passive. Skull = 10% more crit, but I can slot boneyard instead of harness magicka, cleave - very weak, it is not the full damage of the skull.
10% damage reduction is for the time you cast or channel skill so for ele weapon which have instant cast time it is really small chance that you will get hit the exact moment you cast spammable. Like almost zero chances for that. This passives works well for channel toggle skills like acceleration/meditate.
For necro it is super easy to proc burning without ele, other effects also have small chance to apply so it isnt that beneficial on necro.
As for skull, fire damage is king, buffed by engulfing and in new patch it will be buffed even more by new monster set that adds 5% more damage to fire skills. And crit was and still be a king in pve. 10% more crit when you have crit damage buffs from horn, brittle, catalyst (all of that during execute when bloodthirsty traits gives you huge boost) easily outperforms orb passive (unless execute is super short, like couple seconds).
As for shield, most ppl use backbar block with channeled if fight requires having small shield and you dont have space to put harness (most fights you can do without any shield at all)
I forgot to write that it was question about solo build guides.
There is also Silks of the Sun, which will buff not only Skull, but also Blastbones. Less crit than Julianos tho.
Thx=)Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 12:02PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Artorias24 wrote: »I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.
How do you check that there are 12 players of the same skill ?
Do they use the same tactics ?Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 12:03PM0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is 0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭@AyaDark my PC is not top tier too, I think.
For different situations, people swap their gear to reach best possible numbers and they do the math too. That's why they swap the gear. Math matters for people used to build a character in maximal effective way.
Do not you need time to change gear ?
And it is true that some times different sets and skills is better.
But how often will you change it.
If party need to wait some one 20 minutes each time he change sets for each ADD, it is not most effective too.
Most effective way may be is even do not play - what is most effective ?
Game is for fun, do you get all of it from the game ? Or do not. Is it effective ?
Effective for what purpose in a first place ? For what END task ?
Some thing can not be MOST EFFECTIVE - if no conditions - for what END purpose it must be.
Ask people who push the score. They told me, they swap constantly in dungeon, AoE setups, single target setups, etc.
EDIT: this does not take 20 minutes. Even without addons. Then there are people who even change their mundus stone like 3 times in dungeon to benefit more in a boss fight, here on forums was even a rant from one of them, he had to do the whole dungeon again when he left for changing if i remember correctly.
Most effective way to do the task you want to do. My build should pulverize enemies and be able to survive without help. This is its task. There is meta somewhere for it, which I do not follow now and see that my survivability is not optimal = build is not strong enough, build in not most effective way. Does pulverize enemies a liitle faster tho.
Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 12:13PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭And why all players always say about 30 k dps i must have ?
They do not ask me to have 70k but ask to have 30k.
It is OK, but i have 50/80k in the first place with full self sustain. My resources newer ends. And i have 21+k HP in it.
Try to hit without your 10 k HP on dummy and food that you will not use in real fight.
Becouse in real fight - party "must give it to me".
First of all it must not.
Second with 2 more sets self sustined buildes will have the same 100k as you.
Or your cheating with numbers that you just get on atro becouse "another food and 10 k hp" -"and party will give you" thoughts are so much sad that you start to believe in yourself to much, that it is even true ?
Nope.
With out this you are just the same as all others self sustained DD.
And party lose sets just to support you, the same way they can support others, if you would not be anchor for all other party members.0 -
SshadowSscale✭✭✭✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?1 -
LioraValkyrie✭✭✭✭The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc
Founder of The Lollygaggers
Creator of the 1-bar vMA build
World first solo vFH
Unchained Altmer Sorc Tank
Visit me on YouTube! Mistress of Apocrypha ESO5 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.
TESO is not sports like game.
It have hard lags.
People wright about skills : do not press all the time.
It is just MMO, nothing more than that.
With a lot of balance changes. Some achivments is hard to get in some updates easy in another.
In some updates it just do not work.
Game is hard to play in prime time, and people seriously talk about "most effective way ?"
Most effective way is play from GMT+3 : 2AM to 11 AM and do not play all other time.
But people who want to eat work usually this time.
If they do not and play, most effective way will be that time, when they will not play 1 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?
Think it comes down to, as long as you stay out of "challenging" content, your attitude is fine, and you aren't hurting anyone. It'd only be problematic if you try and force your opinion on others, and cause them to not clear content because of it.
Play however you find it fun, insofar as your definition of fun doesn't keep others from completing content.0 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.
That's a great way of putting it - are you going to be a team player, and do whatever it takes for the group to succeed - or are you going to do your own thing, even when it's been proven that thing will drag the team down? It's not-cool to try and treat a team sport like you're the singular hero main character, and everyone else is secondary.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?
Think it comes down to, as long as you stay out of "challenging" content, your attitude is fine, and you aren't hurting anyone. It'd only be problematic if you try and force your opinion on others, and cause them to not clear content because of it.
Play however you find it fun, insofar as your definition of fun doesn't keep others from completing content.
Ok, but in my way i play i can do content. Do not need to much of DPS for it too.
All who "keep others from completing content" is exactly those who needs sets from others to pass. And it is exactly "META people".
And as i said before :
I do not talk about a little amount of Score runners.
I say about "just like score runners copy like people".Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 12:39PM0 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭LioraValkyrie wrote: »The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.
This thread is a bait thread and should be closed.. the OP's arguments are based solely on emotion and dissatisfaction with their game experience. Instead of taking responsibility for one's time in game, the OP has transfered this responsibility onto other players who they decided have made the game less fun for them. The OP is toxic and a troll.
Even in single player rpg there is a meta. Because meta is entirely based upon game mechanics and the tool options you have available. Think of fallout, sure you can run around with a scrap gun that does less damage than the starting 10mm, but your just being silly. It's okay in single player game cause the worse that can happen is the super mutant kills you with his superior rocket launcher.
However in a multi-player game, other human beings have absolute agency with their time and every right to decide who they shall play with, set prerequisites, boundaries and dimensions of their companionship. It is privilege/honor to play with another human being, not a right. All players must earn their friends like we do anywhere else.6 -
Artorias24✭✭✭✭✭
✭Artorias24 wrote: »I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.
How do you check that there are 12 players of the same skill ?
Do they use the same tactics ?
I said dungeon so actually 8 ppl to compare.
When one group is in full PvE meta Gear and the other one is some Light Armor ice roleplay tank that taunts exclusivly with icestaff, the healer in an heavy armor sword and board templar that only spams bol cause of his paladin playstyle, then we have the usual assassin sniper in the back rotating cloak and snipe cause He is a bow Build and at last we have our sorc with 48263 per that only has a barslot for crystal fragment Spam.
Then yes, i am 100% sure the PvE meta group with BiS gear and meta Rotation will complete the dungeon faster ans more efficent.1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »LioraValkyrie wrote: »The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.
This thread is a bait thread and should be closed.. the OP's arguments are based solely on emotion and dissatisfaction with their game experience. Instead of taking responsibility for one's time in game, the OP has transfered this responsibility onto other players who they decided have made the game less fun for them. The OP is toxic and a troll.
Even in single player rpg there is a meta. Because meta is entirely based upon game mechanics and the tool options you have available. Think of fallout, sure you can run around with a scrap gun that does less damage than the starting 10mm, but your just being silly. It's okay in single player game cause the worse that can happen is the super mutant kills you with his superior rocket launcher.
However in a multi-player game, other human beings have absolute agency with their time and every right to decide who they shall play with, set prerequisites, boundaries and dimensions of their companionship. It is privilege/honor to play with another human being, not a right. All players must earn their friends like we do anywhere else.
If in all games it is one meta, why there are different classes and roles than ?
And a few people who is best on them.
So all you do is decide what class is best depending on their play, nothing more.0 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?
Think it comes down to, as long as you stay out of "challenging" content, your attitude is fine, and you aren't hurting anyone. It'd only be problematic if you try and force your opinion on others, and cause them to not clear content because of it.
Play however you find it fun, insofar as your definition of fun doesn't keep others from completing content.
Ok, but in my way i play i can do content. Do not need to much of DPS for it too.
All who "keep others from completing content" is exactly those who needs sets from others to pass. And it is exactly "META people".
And as i said before :
I do not talk about a little amount of Score runners.
I say about "just like score runners copy like people".
Meta setups are based on a concensus of players - it's like a peer-reviewed scientific study, a group effort where everyone tests each other's ideas, calls them out when they are wrong, makes changes, until the community as a whole works together to discover what works best. Thinking of it as simple copying isn't right - it's shared expertise, bouncing back and forth, for the betterment of all parties involved.
If you run a test with your build, show that it is highly viable, and that people will clear content better with your ideas than their current ideas, you will be embraced. It doesn't need to be a parse-only build. Extremely good damage, has sustain, time-on-target is there, if what you do causes best outcomes while playing a certain piece of content, your ideas become what everyone uses. People want their fancy titles and high scores, what gets those best is what will be used. That's the nice thing about meta conversions - best idea wins, and best idea can be tested for.
Actually speaking of, do you have any parses or tests or anything of the build you're alluding to? Can stop talking in hypotheticals and start having a productive conversation.Edited by Blue_Radium on March 1, 2021 1:00PM0 -
Chaos2088✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You don't even need meta to complete most of the content in the game. lol
@Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP0
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