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The best way to remove META:
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AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?
Think it comes down to, as long as you stay out of "challenging" content, your attitude is fine, and you aren't hurting anyone. It'd only be problematic if you try and force your opinion on others, and cause them to not clear content because of it.
Play however you find it fun, insofar as your definition of fun doesn't keep others from completing content.
Ok, but in my way i play i can do content. Do not need to much of DPS for it too.
All who "keep others from completing content" is exactly those who needs sets from others to pass. And it is exactly "META people".
And as i said before :
I do not talk about a little amount of Score runners.
I say about "just like score runners copy like people".
Meta setups are based on a concensus of players - it's like a peer-reviewed scientific study, a group effort where everyone tests each other's ideas, calls them out when they are wrong, makes changes, until the community as a whole works together to discover what works best. Thinking of it as simple copying isn't right - it's shared expertise, bouncing back and forth, for the betterment of all parties involved.
I do not see my ideas was tested anywhere.
As an ideas of a lot of players.
May be we can even test it our selfs, not for some random guys whoes play we do not like ?0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭You don't even need meta to complete most of the content in the game. lol
Yes. Correct.
You are correct !
And in a lot of other setups you will make it more simple and fast.
So if you just want to close it, is not it stupid to try it like "if you will run it on score", if you will newer do it and you do not need it ?Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 12:54PM0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭orion_1981usub17_ESO wrote: »LioraValkyrie wrote: »The trouble with ESO, and all similar games, is that they are caught between being RPGs and sports. In RPGs, you can be the hero you want to be and nobody has the right to question you. In sports, there are tryouts, comparisons and replacements, and nobody can question that either because the goal is to win.
You have to decide whether you are going to play ESO like an RPG or like a sport, and join up with people of the same mindset - then the meta will not be a problem to you anymore.
This thread is a bait thread and should be closed.. the OP's arguments are based solely on emotion and dissatisfaction with their game experience. Instead of taking responsibility for one's time in game, the OP has transfered this responsibility onto other players who they decided have made the game less fun for them. The OP is toxic and a troll.
Even in single player rpg there is a meta. Because meta is entirely based upon game mechanics and the tool options you have available. Think of fallout, sure you can run around with a scrap gun that does less damage than the starting 10mm, but your just being silly. It's okay in single player game cause the worse that can happen is the super mutant kills you with his superior rocket launcher.
However in a multi-player game, other human beings have absolute agency with their time and every right to decide who they shall play with, set prerequisites, boundaries and dimensions of their companionship. It is privilege/honor to play with another human being, not a right. All players must earn their friends like we do anywhere else.
If in all games it is one meta, why there are different classes and roles than ?
And a few people who is best on them.
So all you do is decide what class is best depending on their play, nothing more.
Because games try to give choices and in many games classes are poorly balanced, that you are OP as mage (like 90% RPG games do it with mages being OP, especially old games, Like Gothic where you just obliterate everything with fire falling from the sky at once and archer build is gimped in comparison) and still there is meta for every class generally too.
I remember Hero Siege at start, when they implemented Pirate it was OP class, there was no reason to play other one. Pirate just oneshotted bosses with stack of mines and cleared waves of enemies pretty fast due to passives. Than they nerfed she and made archer OP, then they nerfed it and then something else was meta to clear wormholes for scoreboard.Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Artorias24 wrote: »Artorias24 wrote: »I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.
How do you check that there are 12 players of the same skill ?
Do they use the same tactics ?
I said dungeon so actually 8 ppl to compare.
When one group is in full PvE meta Gear and the other one is some Light Armor ice roleplay tank that taunts exclusivly with icestaff, the healer in an heavy armor sword and board templar that only spams bol cause of his paladin playstyle, then we have the usual assassin sniper in the back rotating cloak and snipe cause He is a bow Build and at last we have our sorc with 48263 per that only has a barslot for crystal fragment Spam.
Then yes, i am 100% sure the PvE meta group with BiS gear and meta Rotation will complete the dungeon faster ans more efficent.
It is some good points in your post.
But as example - did you run vCastle Thorn HM ?
You will not do full dummy like rotation there as example. It is hard and it is ranged boss.
But build who can only - LA snipe, LA snipe and do 40 k to 3 kk dummy is not bad there.
But full 100 k no sustain 10 k hp melee build from atro will be really bad.
Becouse it us harder. So even for skilled people it is not so simple.
For less skilled people withsuch rotation it will be a problem.
But if he can do 40 k with simple rotation it will be more easy to pass !
Yes he will not do 100 k on atro, but he will pass. And the 100 k DPS dummy man will not !
Only if he is really exp, ordinary player will more easely passwithLA snipe, than with this hard rotation.
To exp for really hard player you need time.
As example youcan close content on 1000 hours of play or on 4000 k of play.
What is better ?
4k player will close on better numbers, but on 2 k hours play he will not close, and that 1 button man will.
What do you need - better numbers after 4 k Hours play or pass after 1 hour of play ?
Just as example ?0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.2 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."0 -
KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
if there is a better tactic than the "META" isnt the "META" cause "META" is always to most effiecnt way avialebl
No it is not.
If it is 2 tacticks one is funny and takes 18 minutes and the other is not and take 16 what is better ?
You save 2 minutes in second tacticks.
But the same way you lose 16 minutes of your live in it, becouse it is not fun.
And on the first one you lose nothing.
--- --- ---
May be it is more effective for some party, but why are you sure that it will be good for your group ?
i just said that per definition meta is always the most effectiv i didnt say its the most fun0 -
RedMuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭1) Something will always be meta because something will always be more efficient than everything else.
2) For some people the fun is being effective and fast. Your fun =/= their fun and that's fine.
3) You don't want to run a meta build don't. Join groups that doesn't want to either, I promise you they're out there. Or form your own.
4) But meta will never be destroyed because it can't be. And the whole idea is so pointless and silly I'm wondering why I'm spending time typing this out but here we are.4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
if there is a better tactic than the "META" isnt the "META" cause "META" is always to most effiecnt way avialebl
No it is not.
If it is 2 tacticks one is funny and takes 18 minutes and the other is not and take 16 what is better ?
You save 2 minutes in second tacticks.
But the same way you lose 16 minutes of your live in it, becouse it is not fun.
And on the first one you lose nothing.
--- --- ---
May be it is more effective for some party, but why are you sure that it will be good for your group ?
i just said that per definition meta is always the most effectiv i didnt say its the most fun
The most effective can be on paper.
The other most effective can be on real example.
But if all i see all do just the same with no other options, yes it can be most effective. Becouse it is just a only way people do it.
More effective to pass faster ?
More effective to learn people ?
More effective to close by party and get something ?
There are a lot of effectivnes.
If you just on score run, than ok.
But for people who does not ?
And yes the fastest will be that - that people do.
If some one play even better it can be even faster - itis a limit how people can do it on that period of time + a little random.
In that tactick that they had on that moment.
And it is not the thing, that all players must now try to copy.
More important if they do not need best time for run. And have another goal.Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 1:48PM0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
Here you either judge from only one perspective, then support the argument for the meta - saying that people should test different tactics, how do you think the meta is born? Tests, you have already told about them, and of course mathematics.
People who play meta builds may get aggressive if you don't work with them, which is quite understandable, they gathered there for the most cruel achievement to go and here you are not optimized and spoil everything for them. They will kick you and take someone else.This is normal. Except for these people, there are others who are just going to have casual fun and they don't care in how many seconds you can kill monsters, so why do you want to kill the meta?Let's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
Here you either judge from only one perspective, then support the argument for the meta - saying that people should test different tactics, how do you think the meta is born? Tests, you have already told about them, and of course mathematics.
People who play meta builds may get aggressive if you don't work with them, which is quite understandable, they gathered there for the most cruel achievement to go and here you are not optimized and spoil everything for them. They will kick you and take someone else.This is normal. Except for these people, there are others who are just going to have casual fun and they don't care in how many seconds you can kill monsters, so why do you want to kill the meta?
If other people test other tacticks - it have no help to you.
You did not test and have not learn any exp from it.
Some tactick really is better. But you get exp as a player from do it, not becouse of some other is better. It is your exp you get.
You get it not becouse other people test it. Becouse you learn how to do it.
Current META is not some thing most effective.
It is abusing of the NAME of it.
Just look on the game.
We have not got TANKS in randoms. Not enough good healers. A lot of toxic DD, who can only hit dummy and nothing more.
Even - even !!! If META is best for score runs - it is really bad for players to learn the game.
They do not get different exp of game style. Can not compare by their own. Do not know a lot of game sides.
And some score runners may be just sit with fun on faces and think - funny man, i do better DPS.
But do you forget how you learn it ? Is DPS all you have ? If it is all, i do not even think about such players as about something good. Really good players test it, know a lot of different tacticks. It is not only about DPS.
On 2016 year you only have 4 support sets - you put sustain to Attack and support your group with support sustain sets, alckosh and etc. Now it is a lot of other sets. People can learn a lot of more fast different ways.
Do you start to play with:
Just put it on and do not test anything condition ?
If you do, how did you test that it is nothing better ?
People learn on such thingth a lot.
We have a lot of problems - no tanks, less amount of good healers. Not mutagen spammers.
Becouse META is really bad thing for learning !
People think that if they try to play like top party they close faster.
It is wrong, becouse they have not enough skill for that !
But they think they do becouse they try to copy some good players game play.
It is not becouse of copy.
That player do understand what and why he is doing. And you do not. Better get the same exp first by doing the same tests. Not by copy paste its results.
All you get in game not enough skilled players want you play META, but ... all they can in game is copy paste.
This like situation kills interest to the game in a lot of people. Removes tanks from randoms.
No one say about how to easely go to vDLC and pass. How to easy do 30 k dps on 160+ CP.
All speake about Most Efective Way tratata
But number of most effective is may be 100-1000 players ?
To 100 000 or millions of not effective copys.
And all new player will get is play with not skilled RL that try to COPY - paste other good group gameplay.0 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭Artorias24 wrote: »Artorias24 wrote: »I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.
How do you check that there are 12 players of the same skill ?
Do they use the same tactics ?
I said dungeon so actually 8 ppl to compare.
When one group is in full PvE meta Gear and the other one is some Light Armor ice roleplay tank that taunts exclusivly with icestaff, the healer in an heavy armor sword and board templar that only spams bol cause of his paladin playstyle, then we have the usual assassin sniper in the back rotating cloak and snipe cause He is a bow Build and at last we have our sorc with 48263 per that only has a barslot for crystal fragment Spam.
Then yes, i am 100% sure the PvE meta group with BiS gear and meta Rotation will complete the dungeon faster ans more efficent.
It is some good points in your post.
But as example - did you run vCastle Thorn HM ?
You will not do full dummy like rotation there as example. It is hard and it is ranged boss.
But build who can only - LA snipe, LA snipe and do 40 k to 3 kk dummy is not bad there.
But full 100 k no sustain 10 k hp melee build from atro will be really bad.
Becouse it us harder. So even for skilled people it is not so simple.
For less skilled people withsuch rotation it will be a problem.
But if he can do 40 k with simple rotation it will be more easy to pass !
Yes he will not do 100 k on atro, but he will pass. And the 100 k DPS dummy man will not !
Only if he is really exp, ordinary player will more easely passwithLA snipe, than with this hard rotation.
To exp for really hard player you need time.
As example youcan close content on 1000 hours of play or on 4000 k of play.
What is better ?
4k player will close on better numbers, but on 2 k hours play he will not close, and that 1 button man will.
What do you need - better numbers after 4 k Hours play or pass after 1 hour of play ?
Just as example ?
You can go there with spell strategist instead of siroria and you will perform there great with trial rotation on any mag class. With stam classes you don't even need to change anything, this boss is pretty easy even for melee. Only change from iron atro parse is food.
You can even go with no healer/no sustain food and no sustain sets there with just consuming trap and you will be good. Your statement is just wrong in so many places i don't know where to start.
You don't understand what meta means. Meta means the most effective build. Not the easiest to master.
If you are a bad player who just copy meta build you will not perform good as your build lacks two things: experience and knowledge.
You are not playing meta in that case, you just pretend you do so.
In high end pve nobody will force you to play one exact setup if you can show same or better results on different one (we compare your results to high end standard which is known for most end game raiders).
If you are semi competent there is no way a bad player who knows only snipe build and do 40k on iron atro will perform better then you. If you are bad then sure, bad build can outperform you no matter what gear and skills you have.1 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭OP doesn't realize that there are multiple meta because they're are multiple aspects of the game. There is pvp meta, pve meta, grinding meta, stamina meta, magicka meta, magicka vs stamina meta, dueling meta, dungeon meta, trial meta gathering resources meta, supernatural creature meta, class meta ect.
Meta simply means most efficient use of tools to overcome a mechanic. Take trials, when you first start, you don't have trial sets collected so you use beginner set meta until you get best in slot sets.
And trying to spit on those who actively theorycraft, pioneer builds, and actively participate in encouraging better performance in the community is a toxic crime against that community.
Let's shut this ridiculous thread down.5 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Artorias24 wrote: »Artorias24 wrote: »I think you need to know the difference between fun and being the most effective.
Most effective is defined by numbers. If there are two groups of equally skilled players. One group using full "Meta" Setups like relequen, mother sorrow whatever. The other one is using their own special snowflake RP setups. Both groups complete the dungeon. Meta group Takes 12 minutes and special snowflake group Takes 30. What is more effective? Obviously the meta group. Did they Had "fun"? Who knows but they were the most effective at their Job. That definse Meta.
Dont really get how ppl can even discuss this obvious thing.
How do you check that there are 12 players of the same skill ?
Do they use the same tactics ?
I said dungeon so actually 8 ppl to compare.
When one group is in full PvE meta Gear and the other one is some Light Armor ice roleplay tank that taunts exclusivly with icestaff, the healer in an heavy armor sword and board templar that only spams bol cause of his paladin playstyle, then we have the usual assassin sniper in the back rotating cloak and snipe cause He is a bow Build and at last we have our sorc with 48263 per that only has a barslot for crystal fragment Spam.
Then yes, i am 100% sure the PvE meta group with BiS gear and meta Rotation will complete the dungeon faster ans more efficent.
It is some good points in your post.
But as example - did you run vCastle Thorn HM ?
You will not do full dummy like rotation there as example. It is hard and it is ranged boss.
But build who can only - LA snipe, LA snipe and do 40 k to 3 kk dummy is not bad there.
But full 100 k no sustain 10 k hp melee build from atro will be really bad.
Becouse it us harder. So even for skilled people it is not so simple.
For less skilled people withsuch rotation it will be a problem.
But if he can do 40 k with simple rotation it will be more easy to pass !
Yes he will not do 100 k on atro, but he will pass. And the 100 k DPS dummy man will not !
Only if he is really exp, ordinary player will more easely passwithLA snipe, than with this hard rotation.
To exp for really hard player you need time.
As example youcan close content on 1000 hours of play or on 4000 k of play.
What is better ?
4k player will close on better numbers, but on 2 k hours play he will not close, and that 1 button man will.
What do you need - better numbers after 4 k Hours play or pass after 1 hour of play ?
Just as example ?
You can go there with spell strategist instead of siroria and you will perform there great with trial rotation on any mag class. With stam classes you don't even need to change anything, this boss is pretty easy even for melee. Only change from iron atro parse is food.
You can even go with no healer/no sustain food and no sustain sets there with just consuming trap and you will be good. Your statement is just wrong in so many places i don't know where to start.
You don't understand what meta means. Meta means the most effective build. Not the easiest to master.
If you are a bad player who just copy meta build you will not perform good as your build lacks two things: experience and knowledge.
You are not playing meta in that case, you just pretend you do so.
In high end pve nobody will force you to play one exact setup if you can show same or better results on different one (we compare your results to high end standard which is known for most end game raiders).
If you are semi competent there is no way a bad player who knows only snipe build and do 40k on iron atro will perform better then you. If you are bad then sure, bad build can outperform you no matter what gear and skills you have.
I talk about 40 k on 3 kk dummy.
I really do not know how to do LA snipe, to get only 40 on atro by the way.
May be it even really need some skill.
Skill of "not doing damage".
And ok, you do your 100 k dps rotation on Atro.
Remove trap. Other food.
Long range fight. More sustin is needed. More stamina and some thing to survive.
It will be already another build - can you do the same 100 k to atro ? Do not think so.
Why do all the test are like that ?0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭And the sets like all the same but gives 300 or 400 wpd/spw really is easy to calculate and understand.
But proc VS stat set is much harder.
On atro crit trait on weapon is better for me.
But in dunguans i use infused.
I can show better number on dummy,but i will not use in in vDLC run, so what is the point of such effectivness ?
If we talk about effectivness, let us check sets that atro gives us for our dps. Just limit it by number. The values will already be different.
To do 100 k on dummy needs skill.
But you can go in better build that do less on atro but is better in dunguan.
If you run dunguan you get skill for it.
It is strange to decide skill on dummy for that dunguan.
And yes sirorria is good if you stand. If you run, i do not know, to many different conditions.0 -
wazzz56✭✭✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »Blue_Radium wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »SshadowSscale wrote: »So according to op logic if I wear 2 earthgore 5 beekeeper and 5 grace of gloom with all max health encants on armor and all health recovery on jewelry with healthy traits on jewelry and sturdy on my armor while wielding a resoration staff with a powered trait and all attributes into stamina and all my abilites scaling of magicka.... I can go into a vet hardmode dungeon as a dps because according to me my build is good even if it is not meta it is good because I decided it is good.... then if we wipe I have to kick everyone else in group who is in meta or close to meta gear because it is their fault that we keep wiping not mine because my build of 2k dps is good?????..... aight OP you do you just don't complain if I kick you from group because I would rather have someone who can pull their own weight..... btw I am not asking for you to do 70k plus dps.... I am asking for 30k ish because it's really not hard to get that....
It is according to your own logick. Just as your META is
The Meta is tested by multiple people to find what works best.... so yes it logical to look at the Meta as the best due to the amount of testing that has gone into it.... anyways I am out.... not gonna contribute to this thread anymore so that it can die out as it should.
And how did they test it ? If only one type of gameplay is hardly promoted?
Think it comes down to, as long as you stay out of "challenging" content, your attitude is fine, and you aren't hurting anyone. It'd only be problematic if you try and force your opinion on others, and cause them to not clear content because of it.
Play however you find it fun, insofar as your definition of fun doesn't keep others from completing content.
Ok, but in my way i play i can do content. Do not need to much of DPS for it too.
All who "keep others from completing content" is exactly those who needs sets from others to pass. And it is exactly "META people".
And as i said before :
I do not talk about a little amount of Score runners.
I say about "just like score runners copy like people".
Meta setups are based on a concensus of players - it's like a peer-reviewed scientific study, a group effort where everyone tests each other's ideas, calls them out when they are wrong, makes changes, until the community as a whole works together to discover what works best. Thinking of it as simple copying isn't right - it's shared expertise, bouncing back and forth, for the betterment of all parties involved.
I do not see my ideas was tested anywhere.
As an ideas of a lot of players.
May be we can even test it our selfs, not for some random guys whoes play we do not like ?
It is hard to argue with math....quick question just for context, how much cp do you have? I only ask for the scope of getting an idea of how experienced you are.GM Tig Ole Critties ps5 NA small scale PvP guild
"After a hard week of farming, or a long night of being nagged by your wife, there is nothing better than going out for a bit of a fish."1 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This conversation is not what I expected it to be...
Best way to remove "the meta" is not have something be the best in all situations. To some degree the combat team is already trying to address it, but max DPS seems to solve all problems, so "the meta" in this game is *mostly* to maximize DPS and burn through a boss so you don't have to deal with as many mechanics. There are some bosses in DLC dungeons that you either can't "stack and burn" on or where more DPS causes more mechanics to stack and will cause your group to get overwhelmed and die.
A couple examples of fights that are intended to be broken by too much DPS:
- Moon Hunter Keep final boss - Werewolves come out at health %s so burning too fast gets you a lot of werewolves to deal with.
- Scalecaller Peak 2nd boss (Dolymesh) - Kill him too fast and you can get overwhelmed with adds and spheres
The problem IMO is when mechanics are fight duration based. This encourages players to try to burn off as much health as possible before the duration ends and hopefully end the encounter before having to deal with the duration based mechanic any more times then they have to (e.g. final boss of VDSA). There is also the other issue of when a health % mechanic and a duration mechanic happen at the same time so if you are unlucky and have a specific amount of DPS then you can stack mechanics and make the fight even harder (the solution is still generally adding more DPS).
Then finally the last issue is "speed run" achievements that require your group to have enough DPS. Some people like to get these. Some are required to get super special mounts (godslayer) or skins in DLC dungeons. Most 4 person dungeon speed runs are possible with a decent amount of DPS and group coordination, but the trial ones require a lot more of both. The solution to getting these is always more DPS (and don't stand in some of the red circles).
I was hoping the discussion was going to be along this line, and addressing bad mechanics that encourage a high DPS meta. Not some players bashing others for optimizing their builds and other players bashing them for being too casual with their builds.Edited by kojou on March 1, 2021 2:55PMPlaying since beta...0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 2:59PM0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.Edited by tmbrinks on March 1, 2021 3:03PMThe Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points2 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
I'm just gonna stop here cause I'm pretty sure there is an extreme language barrier here. You seem to not understand what everyone else is talking about, and just reiterating the same points that do not make any sense. Gonna assume that English is not your native tongue or one you are used to using, and I mean no offense by that, I just mean that it seems that a proper discussion cannot be had.1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say that they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 3:18PM0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say thet they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.
Then play with other players. Obviously class matters as well, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.
Determining the "META" is always an important task. It will help players see what can happen in the best of situations, give them a starting point, something to strive for.
Also, this game doesn't have an inspect feature, so how does anybody know what you're running, unless it has a visual effect
I have no clue what your "If you can fly - you can go to the sea" even means. Stay on topic, stop with the analogies. It'll make your point come across better. Because right now, it's a wall of text, filled with random analogies that draw away from any coherent point.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say thet they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.
Then play with other players. Obviously class matters as well, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.
Determining the "META" is always an important task. It will help players see what can happen in the best of situations, give them a starting point, something to strive for.
Also, this game doesn't have an inspect feature, so how does anybody know what you're running, unless it has a visual effect
I have no clue what your "If you can fly - you can go to the sea" even means. Stay on topic, stop with the analogies. It'll make your point come across better. Because right now, it's a wall of text, filled with random analogies that draw away from any coherent point.
Do you learn MATH with start from integrals ?
No, you start it from A+B ... .
What is good in start point where people can not pass ?
You are new player:
You come in game. Will you do on 160 CP 30 k damage ? In mother sorrow and something else ?
But you do need damage for runs. Some thing more simple.
You need something to easely do damage to farm and learn.
I see learning group for nCR. One of the needed sets to healer to get in it was set from it !
But if you already have it,what kind of learning group is it ?
That how it start already work.
Is it more understandable now on such example not on some "off topic" situation ?Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 3:31PM0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This conversation is not what I expected it to be...
Best way to remove "the meta" is not have something be the best in all situations. To some degree the combat team is already trying to address it, but max DPS seems to solve all problems, so "the meta" in this game is *mostly* to maximize DPS and burn through a boss so you don't have to deal with as many mechanics. There are some bosses in DLC dungeons that you either can't "stack and burn" on or where more DPS causes more mechanics to stack and will cause your group to get overwhelmed and die.
A couple examples of fights that are intended to be broken by too much DPS:
- Moon Hunter Keep final boss - Werewolves come out at health %s so burning too fast gets you a lot of werewolves to deal with.
- Scalecaller Peak 2nd boss (Dolymesh) - Kill him too fast and you can get overwhelmed with adds and spheres
The problem IMO is when mechanics are fight duration based. This encourages players to try to burn off as much health as possible before the duration ends and hopefully end the encounter before having to deal with the duration based mechanic any more times then they have to (e.g. final boss of VDSA). There is also the other issue of when a health % mechanic and a duration mechanic happen at the same time so if you are unlucky and have a specific amount of DPS then you can stack mechanics and make the fight even harder (the solution is still generally adding more DPS).
Then finally the last issue is "speed run" achievements that require your group to have enough DPS. Some people like to get these. Some are required to get super special mounts (godslayer) or skins in DLC dungeons. Most 4 person dungeon speed runs are possible with a decent amount of DPS and group coordination, but the trial ones require a lot more of both. The solution to getting these is always more DPS (and don't stand in some of the red circles).
I was hoping the discussion was going to be along this line, and addressing bad mechanics that encourage a high DPS meta. Not some players bashing others for optimizing their builds and other players bashing them for being too casual with their builds.
@kojou
I too prefer Health based mechanics. Not only are they easier to predict and teach, but as you said duration based mechanics due push everyone for higher DPS to avoid them. Its why we have guilds with names like "what mechanics"(not intended to be a bash on the name, actually love it and great satirical remark on current design choices), where they are making the point that with enough DPS you will never see some bosses mechanics. And the opposite is true, with too low DPS you get overburdened with certain mechanics. I would rather have slower fights with a more steady flow of mechanics then having them be ignored.
I mean, it must be sad for the dungeons and trial designers to see their work be ignored like that. Some bosses have really cool mechanics and it adds too the fight. Even in the overworld quests I always stop and see if the "bosses" have any cool mechanics, see what could have been a cool fight if overworld was actually challenging. But instead it gets steamrolled over in less than 5seconds by most average players. And take something like last boss in Maw of Lorkhaj, there are some groups with so much DPS that they can kill him in HM on third platform skipping all other mechanics of that fight. Even back when MoL was new, having Rakkath make a complete circuit around the room was seen as a failure, cause we couldn't handle the Mechanics of it and DPSing to ignore was the goal.
Having less duration based mechanics and less DPS check makes more content accessible to more players and the focus can go from DPS to raid awareness and mechanical knowledge.1 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say thet they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.
Then play with other players. Obviously class matters as well, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.
Determining the "META" is always an important task. It will help players see what can happen in the best of situations, give them a starting point, something to strive for.
Also, this game doesn't have an inspect feature, so how does anybody know what you're running, unless it has a visual effect
I have no clue what your "If you can fly - you can go to the sea" even means. Stay on topic, stop with the analogies. It'll make your point come across better. Because right now, it's a wall of text, filled with random analogies that draw away from any coherent point.
Do you learn MATH with start from integrals ?
No, you start it from A+B ... .
What is good in start point where people can not pass ?
You are new player:
You come in game. Will you do on 160 CP 30 k damage ? In mother sorrow and something else ?
But you do need damage for runs. Some thing more simple.
You need something to easely do damage to farm and learn.
I see learning group for vCR. One of the needed sets to healer to get in it was set from it !
But if you already have it,what kind of learning group is it ?
That how it start already work.
Is it more understandable now on such example not on some "off topic" situation ?
Then run NORMAL Cloudrest to get it
Yes, you can do 30k DPS in MS/Julianos, which are accessible to any player. Julianos is only like 5% below the "META" and won't affect your group's ability to clear content (unless, of course, you are going for score-pushing, trifecta type content)
Then you have the "META" as something for you to strive for.
I GUARANTEE, I could take my raid group, put everybody in a combination of crafted and overland gear (so can be made or bought) and we can clear ANY content in the game (again, not for score-pushing or trifecta, but simply to clear)The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Xalvakka's Scourge - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - The Brilliant - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger71,345 achievement points1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say thet they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.
Then play with other players. Obviously class matters as well, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.
Determining the "META" is always an important task. It will help players see what can happen in the best of situations, give them a starting point, something to strive for.
Also, this game doesn't have an inspect feature, so how does anybody know what you're running, unless it has a visual effect
I have no clue what your "If you can fly - you can go to the sea" even means. Stay on topic, stop with the analogies. It'll make your point come across better. Because right now, it's a wall of text, filled with random analogies that draw away from any coherent point.
Do you learn MATH with start from integrals ?
No, you start it from A+B ... .
What is good in start point where people can not pass ?
You are new player:
You come in game. Will you do on 160 CP 30 k damage ? In mother sorrow and something else ?
But you do need damage for runs. Some thing more simple.
You need something to easely do damage to farm and learn.
I see learning group for vCR. One of the needed sets to healer to get in it was set from it !
But if you already have it,what kind of learning group is it ?
That how it start already work.
Is it more understandable now on such example not on some "off topic" situation ?
Then run NORMAL Cloudrest to get it
Yes, you can do 30k DPS in MS/Julianos, which are accessible to any player. Julianos is only like 5% below the "META" and won't affect your group's ability to clear content (unless, of course, you are going for score-pushing, trifecta type content)
Then you have the "META" as something for you to strive for.
I GUARANTEE, I could take my raid group, put everybody in a combination of crafted and overland gear (so can be made or bought) and we can clear ANY content in the game (again, not for score-pushing or trifecta, but simply to clear)
My mistake.
For vCR yes - he need go and farm nCR sets sorry.
nCR - not vCR.
Sets for nCR from nCR in learning group.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Nice, two threads about removing meta. @Aiphaton already summed things up really well but let me just add.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation. META changes from instance to instance, from trash mobs to boss fight. As a way to simplify that so we don't have to swap everything around the community has a whole focuses on one thing, average single target boss DPS. We don't care about what instance it its and we don't in most cases care if there are more than one boss. Single target is the easiest standard to follow. Is that right? Probably not. Is it easier to measure? Sure is. Do we always know what the TRUE META is? Probably not.
We might not always know the TRUE META and the META always changes, however, just because you do not use it and you refuse to play with people that do, does not "remove the META" or "kill the META". It doesn't care what you think, its an abstract concept not an individual with thoughts and feelings, it just exists. You can play OFF-META all you like and think those that play it is Toxic, but by claiming all people who play using META builds are bad players or toxic players, you are not exactly showing people that OFF-META players are any different at all. If you want to play OFF-META, then do so and move along, if someone wants to play META, then let them and move along. You cannot kill the meta and if what you want to do is change the culture around the META, then my friend you are going around this the wrong way. You can't change an internet culture by simply claiming it to be toxic and bad, even most people that play OFF-META builds to enjoy the game their way won't side with you when your stance is this aggressive.
In short. Can't kill what is not alive, and the internet does not like being talked down too.
META: Most effective Tactics Available. The mathematically perfect character build for a specific situation.
Most effective tacticks aviable only works if you know a lot of different tactics and chouse one.
Not if you only know one and calculate for it in the first place.
If people will not test different tactics they will newer learn to play. Becouse they will not know a lot of different methods.
The mathematical perfect is on paper. In reality it only works if exist players who can use it.
All you need to do to kill META is a little change conditions. So to make it work you need to try for a lot of times.
And the only reason becouse it exist is its promotion.
A lot of people try it for a million times.
If just show people that they can get all theyneed in more simple way - what will happen ?
They will get it and will not play META. So ... with not enough number of people to support this idea it will just fall.
You can have perfect on papersolution - but if people not interested, theyget all they want - why will they do it ?
Thats why META people are so agressive to others. If they lose there promotion and lose peoples mind - they stop exist.
It is just simple.
Some one try 5 years and have good results. But i close from second run, and do not even care. May be some one try to close it 4 years by the same way.
What do people need ? Do they need score run ? Or just 3 in 1 or skin ?
All 3 of this can be achived faster in different ways. From new players.
He do not need try hard 4 years to close on score with you.
He need skin,he do not need score run.
He can easely get it in different gear.
For a few month of play.
What will happen to META raids ?
No one want to do what you want from them. They can easely close with not META group with a lot of fun.
What is the point to work on some toxic players ambitions ?
Want to close vSS ? It is easy to make on 500+ CPgroup. But with no META builds.
Full 810 CP group will close it faster in time. But they played a lot of hours for it.
It is not effective. You play to long for something that can be get more easy way.
For score runs - ok may be META sets will be better, but to much score runners ?
"First of all become a good player, than learn how to do better DPS - just my opinion."
You did not understand a single word I wrote did you? Did I say you needed the META to play the game? To get achievements or get skins? I said that the existence of the META as a concept will always be there since you cannot kill a concept. As well, the fact that you think that OFF-META builds will make it easier to get certain skins is just not true. It is true that becoming a better player will make your success go up with whatever build you might have, but the key parts to that is this. 1. Situation awareness. 2. Understanding Mechanics. 3. ROTATION. The biggest difference to any players DPS is their rotation. Gear will not change the fact that you are spamming Snipe and only Snipe on vSS HM bosses. What will change that is learning how to rotate through your skills, applying buffs, DoTs, HoTs and support skills. Farming for OFF-META gear vs Farming for META gear will not change things as much as changing your rotation and as you said, becoming a better player. So if becoming a better player is the key, and the key to that is not gear, then why farm for OFF-META gear to begin with? Why claim that people should not do it cause its toxic to do so? Sure there are some OFF-META stuff that is more fun to play with, and knock yourself out, play how you want. Unless you are joining a group of 11 other people that do not what to have to carry you.
There is an expectation when joining Trials, and some dungeons. That you will be able to pull your own weight in there and contribute your part. If you run OFF-META sets that still get you within acceptable DPS range for the content, no one will bat and eye except for those that are indeed toxic elitists. However, if you do not pull acceptable DPS and you are hindering the group with low contribution or failure to adhere to mechanics and raid set ups, then you will be removed. There are groups that will teach, and have patience, but those will often advertise themselves as that before starting so everyone is on the same page on the groups, again, expectations. And even they will probably try and teach you what the META is to improve your performance, or show you videos on weaving and rotation set ups, and if you ignore their advice and refuse to learn, they too will eventually kick you out and not run with you. Know what is expected of you by your fellow players when running team content, its not just your time but everyone else's too.
Again, you can play OFF-META all you want, have fun doing it, but please do not try and claim it to make things easier or better for people to do it, and don't try to claim those that run Trial and expect you to actually pull your weight in team content to be toxic, by doing so you are the one putting out the most toxic of claims.
Why i need to read you, if you do not read me ?
I talk about not concept.
I do not talk about paper.
I do not even talk about score runs.
It can be better on it.
But is is not good for new players to learn.
All progressive groups try to copy paste it.
How do end game 100 players play i even really do not care.
I care about other millions do.
A lot of players think that if some of that 100 players close in it, it will be more easy for them to close the same way, with not enough exp they have.
"This" have to be stopped.
The META you talk about do not even really exist.
Some times skills press that bad, that procs can do more damage.
So we need META for time of the day you play.
It is a joke but not that far from real situation.
There are not only score runners in game.
People have to know that a lot of their goals can be achived in a lot of different more easy ways.
All they get - is META sets they can not even do normal dps in to start with.
And it is like garbage everywhere.
You can not find any other information becouse of it.
You will get 100 meta like links on 1 real link that will help you to pass.
Your META is like spam already.
Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job.
If you're in an "end-game, score pushing, trifecta seeking" group, then yes, I would expect you to follow the "META" and do the absolute best for your role in that situation (which is going to change based on player/mechanics, and even support sets).
If you're just trying to clear the content, nobody cares. Certainly not enough to make multiple threads every month about it.
But there is no denying the math of the situation. There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. The trick is figuring out what that is.
"Nobody cares what gear you wear as long as you can do your role and your job."
Unfortunatly they do. If they do not, it even will not by any problem at all.
And it is hard to say that it is not like:
"There will always be some combination of gear/skills that are the absolute best in any situation. "
But one important thing is that it will be for :
Class, player, not only situation. Based on their current exp.
And what ?
Will it help other million of players ?
If you can fly - you can go to the sea.
Others need air plain for that.
This information do not help them. Do you understand that ? Just think about it the way like i will say:
You walk and see hundreds of players that just jump becouse they think they can fly and say thet they are super man.
It is silly !
But it is current in game situation.
May be if you play years in the same statick group you really do not see it.
Then play with other players. Obviously class matters as well, so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated.
Determining the "META" is always an important task. It will help players see what can happen in the best of situations, give them a starting point, something to strive for.
Also, this game doesn't have an inspect feature, so how does anybody know what you're running, unless it has a visual effect
I have no clue what your "If you can fly - you can go to the sea" even means. Stay on topic, stop with the analogies. It'll make your point come across better. Because right now, it's a wall of text, filled with random analogies that draw away from any coherent point.
Do you learn MATH with start from integrals ?
No, you start it from A+B ... .
What is good in start point where people can not pass ?
You are new player:
You come in game. Will you do on 160 CP 30 k damage ? In mother sorrow and something else ?
But you do need damage for runs. Some thing more simple.
You need something to easely do damage to farm and learn.
I see learning group for vCR. One of the needed sets to healer to get in it was set from it !
But if you already have it,what kind of learning group is it ?
That how it start already work.
Is it more understandable now on such example not on some "off topic" situation ?
Then run NORMAL Cloudrest to get it
Yes, you can do 30k DPS in MS/Julianos, which are accessible to any player. Julianos is only like 5% below the "META" and won't affect your group's ability to clear content (unless, of course, you are going for score-pushing, trifecta type content)
Then you have the "META" as something for you to strive for.
I GUARANTEE, I could take my raid group, put everybody in a combination of crafted and overland gear (so can be made or bought) and we can clear ANY content in the game (again, not for score-pushing or trifecta, but simply to clear)
The next question is - if you can easely do good DPS much more simple, what is the point to do less DPS in hard way ?
For score runs ok. More DPS.
But ordinary player will not do even same damage in meta like he can do in no meta sets.
Some people can have bad ping, fps and etc.
You can more easely pass in different combination of sets if you are not top DPS group.
What is the point to copy META game style in such condition ?1 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is always going to be a META combination. The goal shouldn't be to remove the META, it should be to close the gap between the META and all of the other builds so that the difference between the meta and a competitive non-meta set up is more or less negligible.3 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »There is always going to be a META combination. The goal shouldn't be to remove the META, it should be to close the gap between the META and all of the other builds so that the difference between the meta and a competitive non-meta set up is more or less negligible.
Better combination is OK.
Problem is that people try to copy it with no thinking.
It is not always better. It is better on condition.
All people think is:
META is always better. It is not true.
Better on condition is OK.
But all i see even hear is talk about most effective tratata.
It is not most effective by itself.
People have to understand that.0
This discussion has been closed.