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The best way to remove META:
AyaDark
✭✭✭✭✭
First of all lets say what is META:
Best possible gear for some player and situation.
Some players can show better results in different gear.
As example some traits do more dps if you need move more, others are good on target that do not move.
If you have bad ping - your dps in meta gear will be worse than in some other sets.
Just as example:
My DPS is 4 k+- different depending on when i check it.
At 8 AM it is good at 8 PM it is bad, becouse server delays in prime time.
The game is really different even in different time you play it !!!
Some players are hard to press something in movment, some builds do not work if target move.
And you have to understand that if some good party did something, they base tacticks on people they play, not on some perfect situation.
May be with other people it is possible to do another way and more effectively.
Situation where you only hit target that do not move is different from real fights.
So META for dummy can be different from META for real situations.
And the best way to remove META is:
1) Just understand that META is not Most Effective.
META now is MOST EMPTY THOUGHTS Aviable - (Just a stupid builds) - nothing more.
2) The most toxic and bad players try to copy this game style from some really top groups. You are not the TOP - so all you need is just a really good group for yourself. And may be you become top like you like to play. Just try it ! May be your way is better.
You will not get any good time with toxic groups. And short way do not make you play better. Just try your own way and look where will you get with it.
3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
4) Do not limit people who can do their job.
Do not ask others for sets, just for work they have to do. Just a tasks to do. Not a way, that they must do it. Do not give advices.
5) If PL do not kick toxic players from the group just go away, do not use your time to them. If good people start just to go away next time PL will just kick toxic one. Or you find a good group with out them.
6) META now is just some Toxic players - that do not let others try something they want and new. Do not waste your time with them. Let them be META on forum and wipe in dunguans and trials for million times. Just try your own and make it better. Do your builds, try to get better DPS in it.
Do not waste your time with META toxic groups. They exist not becouse they are good.
They exist becouse you are good and they take your time to exist.
7) There are a lot of good no META players. People who close content hundreds of time on ALTs, they do not like. Becouse there "META" party did not take their main character - "It was not META, so just do NB or necr for us".
And they can easely do the same on their no META main, and will by happy.
Just try to understand it.
All this toxic neta thing exist it is becouse you support it with your time.
META ? Sorry do not go your raid. Just try to find good group that do not ask me for sets and do all they get success.
Will not support some narcissism toxic people with my time.
And just believe me, META will go away, becouse they will not get enough good players to do anything.
Becouse the real power is players. And you as a good player have to decide wich way to play.
Most toxic "effective" way with noobs ot just play good and do not care.
Best possible gear for some player and situation.
Some players can show better results in different gear.
As example some traits do more dps if you need move more, others are good on target that do not move.
If you have bad ping - your dps in meta gear will be worse than in some other sets.
Just as example:
My DPS is 4 k+- different depending on when i check it.
At 8 AM it is good at 8 PM it is bad, becouse server delays in prime time.
The game is really different even in different time you play it !!!
Some players are hard to press something in movment, some builds do not work if target move.
And you have to understand that if some good party did something, they base tacticks on people they play, not on some perfect situation.
May be with other people it is possible to do another way and more effectively.
Situation where you only hit target that do not move is different from real fights.
So META for dummy can be different from META for real situations.
And the best way to remove META is:
1) Just understand that META is not Most Effective.
META now is MOST EMPTY THOUGHTS Aviable - (Just a stupid builds) - nothing more.
2) The most toxic and bad players try to copy this game style from some really top groups. You are not the TOP - so all you need is just a really good group for yourself. And may be you become top like you like to play. Just try it ! May be your way is better.
You will not get any good time with toxic groups. And short way do not make you play better. Just try your own way and look where will you get with it.
3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
4) Do not limit people who can do their job.
Do not ask others for sets, just for work they have to do. Just a tasks to do. Not a way, that they must do it. Do not give advices.
5) If PL do not kick toxic players from the group just go away, do not use your time to them. If good people start just to go away next time PL will just kick toxic one. Or you find a good group with out them.
6) META now is just some Toxic players - that do not let others try something they want and new. Do not waste your time with them. Let them be META on forum and wipe in dunguans and trials for million times. Just try your own and make it better. Do your builds, try to get better DPS in it.
Do not waste your time with META toxic groups. They exist not becouse they are good.
They exist becouse you are good and they take your time to exist.
7) There are a lot of good no META players. People who close content hundreds of time on ALTs, they do not like. Becouse there "META" party did not take their main character - "It was not META, so just do NB or necr for us".
And they can easely do the same on their no META main, and will by happy.
Just try to understand it.
All this toxic neta thing exist it is becouse you support it with your time.
META ? Sorry do not go your raid. Just try to find good group that do not ask me for sets and do all they get success.
Will not support some narcissism toxic people with my time.
And just believe me, META will go away, becouse they will not get enough good players to do anything.
Becouse the real power is players. And you as a good player have to decide wich way to play.
Most toxic "effective" way with noobs ot just play good and do not care.
2
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KhajiitLivesMatter✭✭✭✭3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
if there is a better tactic than the "META" isnt the "META" cause "META" is always to most effiecnt way avialebl7 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
if there is a better tactic than the "META" isnt the "META" cause "META" is always to most effiecnt way avialebl
No it is not.
If it is 2 tacticks one is funny and takes 18 minutes and the other is not and take 16 what is better ?
You save 2 minutes in second tacticks.
But the same way you lose 16 minutes of your live in it, becouse it is not fun.
And on the first one you lose nothing.
--- --- ---
May be it is more effective for some party, but why are you sure that it will be good for your group ?2 -
Aiphaton✭✭✭✭Someone seems pretty butthurt about "Meta" - your Argumentation shows that you dont understand what Meta is nor that you actually know whats it about.
You are more about play how you want and how you have fun. Yeah thats works if you dont want to have progress. But certain things also known as Tripple etc. has to be done with "meta".
Eso allready allows you to play mostly how you want.And the best way to remove META is:- Meta is the most effective Build for the current situation - if you cant play the rotation or dont know how certain mechanics work or you miss movment then the build doesnt help you.
1) Just understand that META is not Most Effective.
META now is MOST EMPTY THOUGHTS Aviable - (Just a stupid builds) - nothing more.
- But its the most effective one, when you have a basic knowledge about the game. LA- Skill, Dodge, Block Aoes, Avoid Aoes) 2. The most toxic and bad players try to copy this game style from some really top groups. You are not the TOP - so all you need is just a really good group for yourself. And may be you become top like you like to play. Just try it ! May be your way is better.
You will not get any good time with toxic groups. And short way do not make you play better. Just try your own way and look where will you get with it.
- Did someone kicked you to often out of the dungeon, cause they dont wanted a healer with heavy armor spamming Breath of Life while support sets are avaible. I love my Pugs in Random Vet Runs - but some of them arent "survivable".
-
Thats why meta is sometimes atleast important.
- Most of the pugs - even if you try to be friendly explain the mechanics dont care what you say:3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.- So im toxic, cause i have basic knowledge about the game and play better then a average player ? Your argument sucks and just shows that you are butthurt.4) Do not limit people who can do their job.- Aight throw the healer and tanks into a trial without explaination. Enjoy wiping. Cause giving a brief what will hapen is toxic.
Do not ask others for sets, just for work they have to do. Just a tasks to do. Not a way, that they must do it. Do not give advices.
- Also it makes no sense to put two healer on Spellpowercure - effects are not stacking so give them a certain brief about who should wear which sets etc.5) If PL do not kick toxic players from the group just go away, do not use your time to them. If good people start just to go away next time PL will just kick toxic one. Or you find a good group with out them.- Do you even know what toxic is ? I really doubt it. - Take a look here:
- https://scienceofpeople.com/toxic-people/
- Bla Bla Bla, you cant get better Dps then certain builds no matter what you try - show me a parse where you reach with Dw Mag Dk with 64 Points in Health and Stam Regen Food in heavy armor above 70k dps.
6) META now is just some Toxic players - that do not let others try something they want and new. Do not waste your time with them. Let them be META on forum and wipe in dunguans and trials for million times. Just try your own and make it better. Do your builds, try to get better DPS in it.
Do not waste your time with META toxic groups. They exist not becouse they are good.
- Wait isnt possible, but yeah sure im gonna take you happly to my godslayer group, cause you opend my eyes for the game.7) There are a lot of good no META players. People who close content hundreds of time on ALTs, they do not like. Becouse there "META" party did not take their main character - "It was not META, so just do NB or necr for us".- Main Chas are for Rplers. The only reason to have a maincha is archivments - which should be accountwide then people would stop stating such nonsense.
META ? Sorry do not go your raid. Just try to find good group that do not ask me for sets and do all they get success.
- Sorry you are butthurt, have no clue about what you talking. Just went to the forum cause you got kicked from your dungeon.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on March 1, 2021 4:08PM22 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Simple: just don't play meta
My characters are my own. Nobody else has any business telling me how to build and play my own character. I'll build my characters how I want.
Also, don't let anyone tell you meta is mandatory. It is not. Maybe you need it for leaderboard runs or something, but you can clear all vet content in the game off meta with 30k-ish DPS. Anybody saying you need 50k, 60k, 70k, 80k mins is just ego boosting.
I have 0 meta builds, including some wildly off-meta builds. I have never been prevented from clearing any vet content in the game due to my builds. You need an intentional build to complete vet content for sure. But you don't need meta.
I routinely top combat metrics in my vet dungeon groups with my Aegis Caller / Unleashed / Domihaus stam Nightblade or my Phoenix / False God's / Zaan vampire necro frenzy bomber with a resto staff back bar.
I can tank literally any content in the game on my Breton vampire mag Necro tank in Crimson Twilight / Grave Guardian / Lord Warden with a resto back bar and no Minor Maim.
I have tanked tons of vet content - including vet trials - on my Wood Elf Warden tank in Brands Of Imperium / Combat Physician / Chokethorn
I've never used Alkosh or Yolna on either of my tanks at any point. I've tanked my way into being my guild's trial tank vet raid leader.
I have a Dark Elf Sorc healer in Spell Power / Hiti's / Symphony that can heal any content in the game. My High Elf necro healer in Worm Cult / Hollowfang / Earthgore has actually been complimented by PUG groups and credited with "carries" due to how well my healing pulled the group through vet DLC content. Never touched Z'en's in my life.
In addition, 0 of my gear on any of my characters is golded out. Most of my characters don't even have fully optimized traits yet, or glyphs. I'll get around to it eventually I guess.
I've got no use for meta. I'll build my own characters based on what I like and whats fun for me, and it's nobody else's business what my sets or builds are. I will do my job, and I will do it well.Edited by amm7sb14_ESO on March 1, 2021 8:48AM3 -
Raegwyr✭✭✭✭KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.
if there is a better tactic than the "META" isnt the "META" cause "META" is always to most effiecnt way avialebl
No it is not.
If it is 2 tacticks one is funny and takes 18 minutes and the other is not and take 16 what is better ?
You save 2 minutes in second tacticks.
But the same way you lose 16 minutes of your live in it, becouse it is not fun.
And on the first one you lose nothing.
--- --- ---
May be it is more effective for some party, but why are you sure that it will be good for your group ?
What is fun? For some doing things as fast as they can and pushing boundries is the definition of fun.
Not all of players should play the meta as it often requires special mindset. But OP clearly misunderstood what meta is.
You cannot kill the meta, it will only shift to different classes, skills, sets and playstyles. What you can do to have more healthy game is introduce different meta for different classes and buff the playstyles that underlerforms by a lot when comparing to the meta.
Like wardens and necros are meta in cyro for years now. Often one of the base game classes is in S tier with them too (currently magsorc but we had the time when it was dk, templar or stamblade). It is okay to have classes that are etter at certain content but difference between weakest (currently magblade) and strongest (probably stamden) is way too much to be called healthy4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Someone seems pretty butthurt about "Meta" - your Argumentation shows that you dont understand what Meta is nor that you actually know whats it about.
You are more about play how you want and how you have fun. Yeah thats works if you dont want to have progress. But certain things also known as Tripple etc. has to be done with "meta".
Eso allready allows you to play mostly how you want.And the best way to remove META is:- Meta is the most effective Build for the current situation - if you cant play the rotation or dont know how certain mechanics work or you miss movment then the build doesnt help you.
1) Just understand that META is not Most Effective.
META now is MOST EMPTY THOUGHTS Aviable - (Just a stupid builds) - nothing more.
- But its the most effective one, when you have a basic knowledge about the game. LA- Skill, Dodge, Block Aoes, Avoid Aoes) 2. The most toxic and bad players try to copy this game style from some really top groups. You are not the TOP - so all you need is just a really good group for yourself. And may be you become top like you like to play. Just try it ! May be your way is better.
You will not get any good time with toxic groups. And short way do not make you play better. Just try your own way and look where will you get with it.
- Did someone kicked you to often out of the dungeon, cause they dont wanted a healer with heavy armor spamming Breath of Life while support sets are avaible. I love my Pugs in Random Vet Runs - but some of them arent "survivable".
-
Thats why meta is sometimes atleast important.
- Most of the pugs - even if you try to be friendly explain the mechanics dont care what you say:3) Do not walk with "META" players. Try to show better tactics, more funny ways, good builds for that. If players say you about Most Effective way - well, most effective way is not take such people in group. Let them play with most effective, play just a good groups. Do not take such toxic people.- So im toxic, cause i have basic knowledge about the game and play better then a average player ? Your argument sucks and just shows that you are butthurt.4) Do not limit people who can do their job.- Aight throw the healer and tanks into a trial without explaination. Enjoy wiping. Cause giving a brief what will hapen is toxic.
Do not ask others for sets, just for work they have to do. Just a tasks to do. Not a way, that they must do it. Do not give advices.
- Also it makes no sense to put two healer on Spellpowercure - effects are not stacking so give them a certain brief about who should wear which sets etc.5) If PL do not kick toxic players from the group just go away, do not use your time to them. If good people start just to go away next time PL will just kick toxic one. Or you find a good group with out them.- Do you even know what toxic is ? I really doubt it. - Take a look here:
- https://scienceofpeople.com/toxic-people/
- Bla Bla Bla, you cant get better Dps then certain builds no matter what you try - show me a parse where you reach with Dw Mag Dk with 64 Points in Health and Stam Regen Food in heavy armor above 70k dps.
6) META now is just some Toxic players - that do not let others try something they want and new. Do not waste your time with them. Let them be META on forum and wipe in dunguans and trials for million times. Just try your own and make it better. Do your builds, try to get better DPS in it.
Do not waste your time with META toxic groups. They exist not becouse they are good.
- Wait isnt possible, but yeah sure im gonna take you happly to my godslayer group, cause you opend my eyes for the game.7) There are a lot of good no META players. People who close content hundreds of time on ALTs, they do not like. Becouse there "META" party did not take their main character - "It was not META, so just do NB or necr for us".- Main Chas are for Rplers. The only reason to have a maincha is archivments - which should be accountwide then people would stop stating such nonsense.
META ? Sorry do not go your raid. Just try to find good group that do not ask me for sets and do all they get success.
- Sorry you are butthurt, have no clue about what you talking. Just went to the forum cause you got kicked from your dungeon.
Enjoy your day and stay a special snowflake
Why are you shure that if for some player some thing is good in some situation it will be good for you ?
When you will be in such situation it first of all will be different.
You not him will be in this situation.
And situation will be different.
So you try to copy some other players exp for different situation.
You do not try to do best for situation.
You try to copy other players way of his situation for other situation you are in.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭And you even do not try to change situation to make other build be better in it.
Who check is it better or not.
It is just on paper thoughts of some one who do not play, when he wright it.
May be others will just play it and get a good results. But they do not wright it.Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 8:49AM0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭And as you all see it is now topic about:
How people like to play.
1) One of them like to think by their own.
2) Others like to copy.
Copy from the best do not make you best you know. It even do not make you unique.
Who think becomes unique.
Unique is not always best.
But best is always unique.0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 9:00AMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭And on paper it really is some thing that is better.
But in reality - paper is just a paper.
It is not some thing perfect at all. Not an ideal you need to follow or some thing best.
May be it is even some thing you can not do by your own and you will get better on other way.0 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭Parsing tests your damage ceiling, under best possible circumstances. That's it. You can run 100+ parses, wait for your best crit luck, clip it, that's your DPS.
The game skill and knowledge needed to get an exceptional parse translates directly to trial effectiveness - which is the point.3 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.1 -
Trapasaurus_Rex✭✭✭No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
Make Nightblade Great Again4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
If some player walk more often in some content in some gear, it do not make gear better. It just show that some players walk and play in it now in some content. May be some good players who like play like that.
It may be 30 runs of only him in it.
And other player may be run not as much.
With the same results you will have statistics that 1 gear is 30 times better even if they are the same, just becouse 1 man run 30 times more ?0 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off OR, in PoE, when new season with patches drops. So no one takes this fun from anyone there, do not worry. HERE, in ESO, no one can agree on what meta is. You read the guides, then in the game people tell you that they are really bad and there is such a way to make it even better.Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 10:28AMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.1 -
amm7sb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
You just answered your own question.
People like you wanting to gate keep content behind meta is exactly why people like myself hate it and will never touch it. While completing the content you say I can't complete without it.3 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?0 -
Blue_Radium✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Okay:
Let's break it down into player score, and gear score, scale from 1 to 10, 10 being "meta" for both. Player score is weaving, rotation, positioning, movement. Gear score is proper equipment, champion point allocation, consumable, etc, for the content being run.
If a 10 player uses 9 gear, then their effectiveness score is 90, 10×9=90.
If a 7 player uses 10 "meta" gear, they're a 70.
A 10 player using 9 gear will always be 10 points worse than a 10 player using 10 gear.
Here's the important part: just because a 10 player is only comfortable with 8 gear, doesn't mean that 10 gear is worse if the player becomes a 7 when they try and use it. The effectiveness score goes from 80 to 70, but the gear is still a 10. Once the player learns to use it, they'll be a 100 instead of an 80.
The "meta" of each patch is whatever 10×10 is, which is always changing.Edited by Blue_Radium on March 1, 2021 9:21AM1 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
I am just an anonimouse so i do not think even if i do something, it will.
If people do not see something i hope it will newer be popular
So it will newer be meta.
And some one will do it better one day, just by do it another way
Not by 1000 trys of the same.Edited by AyaDark on March 1, 2021 9:13AM0 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭I'm not particularly a lemming that follows metas to the "T" because there's a thing called "playstyle" that often drives my own decisions to suit me.
Meta will always be a constant in the game, or for any game to be truthful. As mentioned numerous times, ZOS moved the game away from classes to gear setups and proc set configurations. The key problem resonates by the persistent ignoring that classes have been outdated, altered to meet the "me too" crowd, and forcibly driven into item or proc set configuration model that generates the "meta" model. There is no common lexicon that defines the definition of each class identity.
That's the unadulterated truth.
They drove this "meta" cash cow forward with each release, as new sets gap-fill class defects or boost damage, healing or buffs/debuffs where the power scale is active on Live. They set the "meta" standard, players adapted to the direction their given. Unfortunately, the cash cow caused a viral state of affairs where their still facing the same question: how do we fix the mess without reworking class skill kits from ground up... because that's the near-state of the mess when people complain about imbalances. It's not the "meta" but the framework they're forced into that limits effective build diversity.
This climate of the game brought forward the mentality where you must have XYZ or parse a minimum or be benched in Trial group guilds. This also applies to PVP where massive damage landing in mere seconds forced players into Heavy Armor, and now stacking health when proc sets will off-set class, weapon, etc. skill based damage.
When you apply some retrospection, you'll maybe understand the perspective explained hereEdited by Sahidom on March 1, 2021 9:25AM1 -
LashanW✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I don't think the person you quoted was talking about simply clearing a vet trial. They are not the hardest things in the game. Hardest things would be trifecta runs. Achievements like godslayer. These require a certain level of group dps. Content like that requires exceptionally high performance from players and that's where meta setups becomes a necessity.amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
You just answered your own question.Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
People like you wanting to gate keep content behind meta is exactly why people like myself hate it and will never touch it. While completing the content you say I can't complete without it.---No longer active in ESO---
Platform: PC-EU
CP: 2500+Trial Achievements
Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, Tick-Tock Tormentor, Immortal Redeemer, Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, vMoL no death
Arena Achievements
vMA Flawless, vVH Spirit Slayer
DLC Dungeon Trifectas
Scalecaller Peak, Fang Lair, Depths of Malatar, Icereach4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭
I don't think the person you quoted was talking about simply clearing a vet trial. They are not the hardest things in the game. Hardest things would be trifecta runs. Achievements like godslayer. These require a certain level of group dps. Content like that requires exceptionally high performance from players and that's where meta setups becomes a necessity.amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
You just answered your own question.Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
People like you wanting to gate keep content behind meta is exactly why people like myself hate it and will never touch it. While completing the content you say I can't complete without it.
In no death runs survive is as important as do DPS so pass it in more comfortable gear player play may be will by more easy.
Some times DPS can by exchanged for surviveability.
So may be it will be even bettar if some member who dies more and do more dps will have less dps but more hp0 -
SgtNuttzmeg✭✭✭✭Playing the Meta is fine and whether a player uses it or not is completely independent of if they are toxic or not. Most endgame players the ones that really ride the meta are some of the chillest players. The people that seem to be the most toxic are usually the ones that don't understand the game and build off meta builds.Legions of Mordor Core
Cold0neFTBs8 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭My two cents...
If a hi-end trial guild asks for meta builds, and impose the sets you wanna wear, it's their rights.
Their guild, their rules to enforce as they see fits. For them, score pushing and attaining the lowest possible time of completion is absolute fun. Who might you be to infringe on their idea of fun? Is their fun not as good as yours?
If you just wanna pug/run in a little progression guild, no one will hound you for "meta". It never happened to me.
So, yeah. Play according to your aims, but don't expect to succeed everytime in you don't like disciplined groups.7 -
Spawniaq✭✭✭
I don't think the person you quoted was talking about simply clearing a vet trial. They are not the hardest things in the game. Hardest things would be trifecta runs. Achievements like godslayer. These require a certain level of group dps. Content like that requires exceptionally high performance from players and that's where meta setups becomes a necessity.amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
You just answered your own question.Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
People like you wanting to gate keep content behind meta is exactly why people like myself hate it and will never touch it. While completing the content you say I can't complete without it.
In no death runs survive is as important as do DPS so pass it in more comfortable gear player play may be will by more easy.
Some times DPS can by exchanged for surviveability.
So may be it will be even bettar if some member who dies more and do more dps will have less dps but more hp
brooo, are you sure that you are playing Elder Scrolls Online? if tank has the taunt and the team knows the mechs you don´t even need shield skills. People out there please don`t do jumping and shield skill spamming in the dungeons or trials. Bosses don´t die if you go defensive
you only lose recources and time
just ask people how to make your dps better , dont be shy . i had 15k dps 3 years ago now i am pushing 85k dps all contents are doable :d you are not the first who has troubles with learning the game, if you think it is fun having no dps and running around in the dungeons or trials like hours; try the clearing hard achievements after learning the correct setup and mechanics... believe me real fun is not what you are doing Edited by Spawniaq on March 1, 2021 10:06AMPs4 / Eu2 -
Spawniaq✭✭✭SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »Playing the Meta is fine and whether a player uses it or not is completely independent of if they are toxic or not. Most endgame players the ones that really ride the meta are some of the chillest players. The people that seem to be the most toxic are usually the ones that don't understand the game and build off meta builds.
Totally!Ps4 / Eu3 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
EDIT: in 10 casts, not 10 seconds, my bad.Edited by Scardan on March 1, 2021 10:37AMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.0 -
orion_1981usub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I really feel this is a troll thread and anyone who has taken it seriously has been absolutely trolled. The arguments are contrary to the game mechanics, the demands are beyond woke and the spelling is atrocious. Please don't feed forum trolls. Meta exist, always will exist so long as multiple options are available.
A good analogy of the complaint against meta is a teenager complaining that they have to grow up and take responsibility for their lives... but they want to lounge around and eat garbage under their parents roof for ever... and its toxic to tell them to develop skills that are required for work. Then when they are 30, the post on life forums about how mean everyone is because they have no job.
Meta = logical deduction of risk vs benefits in regards to its problem solving capacity. Those against it are literally telling people not to think.6 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭
I don't think the person you quoted was talking about simply clearing a vet trial. They are not the hardest things in the game. Hardest things would be trifecta runs. Achievements like godslayer. These require a certain level of group dps. Content like that requires exceptionally high performance from players and that's where meta setups becomes a necessity.amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »
You just answered your own question.Trapasaurus_Rex wrote: »No matter how you put it, you cant "remove" meta, you can only change what it is. Meta is literally just what is statistically the best set up for that certain class/content. Every game has a meta, ESO is no different. Yes, lesser experienced players will not perform like more experienced players with the same gear, however, that does not change the fact that at the top level, that particular set up has the highest potential output.
For some reason recently, meta has been like a boogieman phrase, people hear it and get super uptight. If you don't want to play what is the technically the best, that is fine. Just don't expect to be able to do the hardest things in the game.
People like you wanting to gate keep content behind meta is exactly why people like myself hate it and will never touch it. While completing the content you say I can't complete without it.
In no death runs survive is as important as do DPS so pass it in more comfortable gear player play may be will by more easy.
Some times DPS can by exchanged for surviveability.
So may be it will be even bettar if some member who dies more and do more dps will have less dps but more hp
brooo, are you sure that you are playing Elder Scrolls Online? if tank has the taunt and the team knows the mechs you don´t even need shield skills. People out there please don`t do jumping and shield skill spamming in the dungeons or trials. Bosses don´t die if you go defensiveyou only lose recources and time
just ask people how to make your dps better , dont be shy . i had 15k dps 3 years ago now i am pushing 85k dps all contents are doable :d you are not the first who has troubles with learning the game, if you think it is fun having no dps and running around in the dungeons or trials like hours; try the clearing hard achievements after learning the correct setup and mechanics... believe me real fun is not what you are doing
Learning the game lol - why do you think you play better ?)) Just some thoughts with no real evidence ? ))
It is a little arrogance you know ?
Do DPS to dummy on numbers do not show your skills.
Do you have the same DPS on dummy as in Veteshrain as example ? No ?
I think no - becouse you need to live and more strict rotation is some times more good than hard with more numbers in just stand dummy.
And more fun i get about people with - Shields skill - that in their opinion will defend them.
First of all - have some one enough skill to use it ? Will it come from blind spot or ? Will it just press ?
The difference in skilled people and just "forum skilled players" - is about understanding, that game can not react on your actions.
And if i know that i can avoid 99 from 100 attacks by skills and if the game do not work good only 9 from 10 - i will beter do HP more - to not die on 10s attack that i will not avoid not becouse shield not save me - becouse shield would save me if it will cast))
And i newer had only 15 k dps to start with. I start with 30+k dps on DD.
But i have 10 k+ on tank - it really help me to pass some times, even solo.I am against removing meta. I wish we had BiS gear that would be BiS in Trials, Solo etc, without need to calculate over 999999 sets for every situation. I heard that score pushers micromanage their gear between fights, that sounds like hell to me. With BiS gear for everything that would not happen and people could play the game instead of swapping sets with third party programms or what.
I simply wish we had best gear, instead of 99999 options with pros and cons.
Same with builds, I am fed up with doing math for my character because of so many options. I do not care anymore. xD
So META for you is just a short way - becouse you do not want calculate.
Others do like. And make some thing own that is good and best for them.
Why do they need just copy like you ?
Good gear and builds are always good.
But gear itself is not best.
Player+Gear is.
And good player always know what is better for him. Not for other good players.
Yeah, I am former Diablo 2 and PoE player. There is always BiS choice, calculated by many and confirmed by many, working for everything, so you always calculate only for non meta builds you do for fun and show off. HERE, in ESO, meta is focused only on the group end game content, there are differences within the same class, the builds must be rechecked yourself. At the same time, everything is not boiled down with one set, some skills and so on.
Any gear you wear is good. If you do your task.
Untill you start say that it is the best becouse some other guy run in it, and he is good - so we must all run it - do not make it META for me, so i have no problems to run with such people.
Untill they start to say some META like thingth they always do, so what is a problem to copy some gear with some DPS and other values in some situations ? If you just like to test it yourself ?
No, I always argue with math.
I sit yesterday and calculated the damage of Ricochet Skull spam vs Ele Weapon spam. Just raw damage number with 2k spell strength and 50k magicka. On paper, Ele Weapon does ca 3k more damage because of orb passive in 10 second window. No one "meta" guide puts Ele Weapon on magcro for some reason, but Channeled Acceleration and Orb passive, despite the fact that Channeled Acceleration has 12 seconds on speed buff and over 20 or 30 on crit buff, so Orb passive is not triggered at all. So, even meta guides have mistakes.
I can understand that skull is less awkward to use than Ele Weapon, this is why necroes go with Skull. But it should be mentioned in guides IMHO.
The most big problem with math is - that it will not press buttons on character.
In math a lot of sets are perfect, but when i try to use it i start get freez - my PS start slow down and fps drop to 2.
So some sets can be good for people with god like PC - and if some one with worse one will be there - he just get 0 fps and can do nothing
Or may be even god like PC start like do not know - have just normal one.
And you calculate some thing for situation.
In another strategy it will be another calculations.
And some times thingth go not the way we plan - so it is better to be prepared to it.
And even if in some situation some thing is better, but in another situation some thing is not - is not it rude to say people how to play ?
In some situations they can be better - so it is not about skill. It is about abusing cofmortable conditions for you - not for them.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭Blue_Radium wrote: »Parsing tests your damage ceiling, under best possible circumstances. That's it. You can run 100+ parses, wait for your best crit luck, clip it, that's your DPS.
The game skill and knowledge needed to get an exceptional parse translates directly to trial effectiveness - which is the point.
Some people will not test some sets and combination becouse all want play META.
If it is some thing better - but people just can not learn it and combine it it will newer be better.
To get better you need to get EXP.
To get EXP you need walk to some where.
So to learn some thing in not standart way - you need to practice it.
If you not have enough people and practice you can not be better. Even with better idea and sets on paper.
So it can by even more effective - but not enough people to use it.
People just do not think that way.
May be they just thing that it is more effective - becouse god make it ?
No - just people train a lot and walk that way. If they do different way - may be a lot of different results will be and may be even better.0
This discussion has been closed.