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New CP's system promotes P2W and this is why...
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Mythreindeer✭✭✭✭✭
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
If you believe this game is operated unethically why would you continue to play?
You stated in the 1st post you did not have the money for the pay-for-convenience items you deem as P2W, but if you did would you buy them?1 -
Jaxious79✭✭✭✭This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*
I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.
What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
Everything is part of the "P2W spectrum" to those who claim everything is P2W. You cant have a discussion with these people because they always move the goal post or expand their "spectrum". Nothing in ESO is P2W its that simple, you don't get to define P2W every time you don't like a system or game.
P2W is simple: buying an item that is ONLY available in a cash store and CAN NOT BE OBTAINED INGAME that gains an advantage. That is P2W nothing in ESO meets that threshold, no matter how much you move the goal post or expand your "spectrum" ESO is NOT P2W in any shape or form. Very few MMOs are.
I will never understand most those who falsely accuse an MMO of being P2W also accuse the company of being unethical yet still play the game. If I found a company unethical you can be sure I wouldnt not be playing or doing business with that company anymore. Just another example of these P2W people not having a leg to stand on with their baseless accusations.Edited by Jaxious79 on February 11, 2021 5:47PM2 -
dcam86b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭People are going to find ways around any system in any game.
None of the content in ESO is hard unless you're making dumb choices.0 -
Villanelf✭✭TwiceBornStar wrote: »
There will always be people ahead of you. Just don't forget about the people who are behind you?
That’s deep 👍
Edited by Villanelf on February 11, 2021 5:58PM0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*
I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.
What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
Everything is part of the "P2W spectrum" to those who claim everything is P2W. You cant have a discussion with these people because they always move the goal post or expand their "spectrum". Nothing in ESO is P2W its that simple, you don't get to define P2W every time you don't like a system or game.
P2W is simple: buying an item that is ONLY available in a cash store and CAN NOT BE OBTAINED INGAME that gains an advantage. That is P2W nothing in ESO meets that threshold, no matter how much you move the goal post or expand your "spectrum" ESO is NOT P2W in any shape or form. Very few MMOs are.
I will never understand most those who falsely accuse an MMO of being P2W also accuse the company of being unethical yet still play the game. If I found a company unethical you can be sure I wouldnt not be playing or doing business with that company anymore. Just another example of these P2W people not having a leg to stand on with their baseless accusations.
*sigh*
This sort of response is why I usually don't use the phrase "pay-to-win" when discussing the problems of monetization in the video game industry today. Too many customers get hung up on the words used instead of paying attention to what is going on and how monetization models today are not good from a customer standpoint. I don't think the OP highlights that particularly well, but to say that these industry trends are baseless or not a problem is simply false unless you don't value your own time or money. We are not being given a good deal as customers and there is little reason for any of us to play the role of corporate apologist. If we want things to change - if we want to force developers to go back to respecting our time and money instead of constantly nickel and diming us for things - it is important to cry foul when foul is being done. Otherwise, they can and will (and already have) continue to make the deal worse and worse for us as customers.
To be clear - none of this means you can't (or shouldn't) play a game with bad monetization or support it in the ways you feel are acceptable. We are all here because we enjoy playing video games and want to see them be wonderful and amazing. I want them to be wonderful and amazing without taking the customer's wallet for a ride. I want our time and money to be respected, not to be manipulated into addiction and overspending. That's not a big ask and not hard to achieve.1 -
Vanya✭✭✭✭✭"P2W" is a relative term
Two groups of people either those who have huge amount to burn in real life either need to work hard in RL
or spend massive amount of time playing game, you dont get millions of gold in eso over night. Unless we talk about those who milk cash from their parents,relatives.
Time-Money. plus you have current 1600 CP and you speak of "Normal grinding" 1600 CP is so extremely rare to see. I am on 218.
People who execute what you stated payed price of embracing no life to put it mildly. Why would trouble you about CP and what people do as long when It does not disrupt your game play or privacy,abuse related etc.
These people do pay a price,everything has a price.
Edited by Vanya on February 11, 2021 7:01PM0 -
Jaxious79✭✭✭✭This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*
I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.
What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
Everything is part of the "P2W spectrum" to those who claim everything is P2W. You cant have a discussion with these people because they always move the goal post or expand their "spectrum". Nothing in ESO is P2W its that simple, you don't get to define P2W every time you don't like a system or game.
P2W is simple: buying an item that is ONLY available in a cash store and CAN NOT BE OBTAINED INGAME that gains an advantage. That is P2W nothing in ESO meets that threshold, no matter how much you move the goal post or expand your "spectrum" ESO is NOT P2W in any shape or form. Very few MMOs are.
I will never understand most those who falsely accuse an MMO of being P2W also accuse the company of being unethical yet still play the game. If I found a company unethical you can be sure I wouldnt not be playing or doing business with that company anymore. Just another example of these P2W people not having a leg to stand on with their baseless accusations.
*sigh*
This sort of response is why I usually don't use the phrase "pay-to-win" when discussing the problems of monetization in the video game industry today. Too many customers get hung up on the words used instead of paying attention to what is going on and how monetization models today are not good from a customer standpoint. I don't think the OP highlights that particularly well, but to say that these industry trends are baseless or not a problem is simply false unless you don't value your own time or money. We are not being given a good deal as customers and there is little reason for any of us to play the role of corporate apologist. If we want things to change - if we want to force developers to go back to respecting our time and money instead of constantly nickel and diming us for things - it is important to cry foul when foul is being done. Otherwise, they can and will (and already have) continue to make the deal worse and worse for us as customers.
To be clear - none of this means you can't (or shouldn't) play a game with bad monetization or support it in the ways you feel are acceptable. We are all here because we enjoy playing video games and want to see them be wonderful and amazing. I want them to be wonderful and amazing without taking the customer's wallet for a ride. I want our time and money to be respected, not to be manipulated into addiction and overspending. That's not a big ask and not hard to achieve.
I pay $15/month to play this game. I get 1500 or whatever crowns. If I want to spend another $50/month on extra crowns that is $65/month. Most months that I sub I can put in well over 15 hours. That is less than $1/hr of entertainment, even with that extra $50 I probably still hit $1/hr of entertainment a month.
ZOS is not out to get me or anyone, their monetization is not hidden its open for everyone to see. You decide what you want to spend I will decide what I want to spend and everyone else can decided for themselves. Its no up to you or anyone else to determine what others want to and enjoy spending their money on.
ZOS is not here to pat people on the back and telling them good boy/girl for playing. They are not a charity, they need to make money and offering NON P2W items in a store is NOT deceitful or unethical its a business decision and one that in no way states they don't respect their players.
Once sports open up again I can easily spend $200 for 3 hours of entertainment out with friends, paying $1/hr for entertainment is the best bargain in entertainment, trying to make these developers the bad guy or evil needs to end. I am not "corporate apologist" I am a gamer who understands the difference between a charity and business.Edited by Jaxious79 on February 11, 2021 7:17PM2 -
ThorianB✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I am sorry, but you don't get to redefine what P2W means so that your argument carries more weight. Nothing in ESO is remotely pay 2 win. It isn't even " Pay 2 skip". There are no "pay 2 skip" items you can get in the crown store that you can't also get with gold.
*sigh*
This sort of response is why I usually don't use the phrase "pay-to-win" when discussing the problems of monetization in the video game industry today.
To many customers choose to use "bad words" for things they don't like in order to garner support for their position. Those models you speak of are actually really good for customers and i'm going to tell you why...Too many customers get hung up on the words used instead of paying attention to what is going on and how monetization models today are not good from a customer standpoint.
1. The average price of a B2P game has not went up in 30 years. Games for the SNES cost $40-$60 at release.
2. The price of a subscription has never increased. It has always been $15.
3. The cost of everything else has went up. A $40 game today is the same as a $19.04 game in 1990 when you figure inflation. Games have not increased in price because players refuse to pay more for games even though games today cost a lot more to develop and players expect more from their games.
4. Developers have had to come up with creative ways to make any profit off what is a risky market anyway. They do this with MT stores. Players can then pay a base cost for the game content and then spend as much as they want to spend on extras.
5. This system works out well because people with money can cover people who don't have money. While the people who don't have money can help populate the game and make it enjoyable for the people who do. So each get something out of this deal and so does the developer...they get to stay in business.
6. Video games are the cheapest form of paid entertainment you can possibly invest in, at least in developed countries. You get the most "bang for the buck" out of video games. It is vital to those games that MT stores can bring in the extra sales needed to keep the game running and teams of developers creating and fixing content.
If you think this is nickle and dime-ing you, this game probably wouldn't even exist without the MT store. They simply could not afford to keep it online. It is whales and people who love cosmetics and people who have ESO plus and people who sell crowns for gold because they are to busy to make gold in game... it is those people that makes sure you can login to this game every single day and play. They are the ones that pay the bills around here and they do so 100% willingly so everyone can enjoy this game no matter how poor you are.
Sure the developer wants to make a profit...that isn't greedy. A businesses entire purpose is to make profit, if it doesn't it has no purpose. That isn't evil or shady or manipulative. It is just a business trying to turn a profit while taking risks. Those risks don't always pay off. Look at Fallout 76. I have not heard great things about that game. They might not even ever recover their investment in that game and if they do it may take years to see a profit. Some of their games have to be profitable so they can afford to make new ones.
Is the company greedy? No, it is just trying to be a business not a charity. You can either support that business if you like what it has to offer or not support it if you don't. ESO is not P2W or P2S but someone has to keep the lights on around here.1 -
smittyhd60Soul ShrivenBasically, anything that has been added or changed in the game, someone has said it is P2W or P2Skip (as someone above said). I can imagine how many people complained about the change from Vet ranks to CP 1.0. How about this one, once you have made it to CP level and you start a new toon you get to use all your CP points. And add insult to injury, once you make it to level 50, that toon goes all the way to your CP level, no grind, so P2Skip!
I have 14 toons now and on the 13 new toons, I have happily used all my CP points that I had available. And I must say, I really enjoyed the grind to level 50. As many of you know, there can be some down side to this feature of the game. Going from level 49 to 50 CP 810+ in one jump can be problematic. Not having to do the grind with this toon, in some cases, I did not completely learn the class, have the right CP 160 gear or even have all the skills and passives leveled up. There is PvE content that proved to me what I was lacking! LoL I will say after a number of years playing ESO, I appreciate how the Dev's set this up.
My original toon is my crafter. I chose not to do the crafting grind on any of my 13 other toons. I have earned writs and I have purchased writs. And if that is what you like to do the more power to you. PvP, PvE, Solo or Group, I like ithat the game is diverse and most anyone can find something they like to do.0 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*
I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.
What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
Everything is part of the "P2W spectrum" to those who claim everything is P2W. You cant have a discussion with these people because they always move the goal post or expand their "spectrum". Nothing in ESO is P2W its that simple, you don't get to define P2W every time you don't like a system or game.
P2W is simple: buying an item that is ONLY available in a cash store and CAN NOT BE OBTAINED INGAME that gains an advantage. That is P2W nothing in ESO meets that threshold, no matter how much you move the goal post or expand your "spectrum" ESO is NOT P2W in any shape or form. Very few MMOs are.
I will never understand most those who falsely accuse an MMO of being P2W also accuse the company of being unethical yet still play the game. If I found a company unethical you can be sure I wouldnt not be playing or doing business with that company anymore. Just another example of these P2W people not having a leg to stand on with their baseless accusations.
*sigh*
This sort of response is why I usually don't use the phrase "pay-to-win" when discussing the problems of monetization in the video game industry today. Too many customers get hung up on the words used instead of paying attention to what is going on and how monetization models today are not good from a customer standpoint. I don't think the OP highlights that particularly well, but to say that these industry trends are baseless or not a problem is simply false unless you don't value your own time or money. We are not being given a good deal as customers and there is little reason for any of us to play the role of corporate apologist. If we want things to change - if we want to force developers to go back to respecting our time and money instead of constantly nickel and diming us for things - it is important to cry foul when foul is being done. Otherwise, they can and will (and already have) continue to make the deal worse and worse for us as customers.
To be clear - none of this means you can't (or shouldn't) play a game with bad monetization or support it in the ways you feel are acceptable. We are all here because we enjoy playing video games and want to see them be wonderful and amazing. I want them to be wonderful and amazing without taking the customer's wallet for a ride. I want our time and money to be respected, not to be manipulated into addiction and overspending. That's not a big ask and not hard to achieve.
I pay $15/month to play this game. I get 1500 or whatever crowns. If I want to spend another $50/month on extra crowns that is $65/month. Most months that I sub I can put in well over 15 hours. That is less than $1/hr of entertainment, even with that extra $50 I probably still hit $1/hr of entertainment a month.
ZOS is not out to get me or anyone, their monetization is not hidden its open for everyone to see. You decide what you want to spend I will decide what I want to spend and everyone else can decided for themselves. Its no up to you or anyone else to determine what others want to and enjoy spending their money on.
ZOS is not here to pat people on the back and telling them good boy/girl for playing. They are not a charity, they need to make money and offering NON P2W items in a store is NOT deceitful or unethical its a business decision and one that in no way states they don't respect their players.
Once sports open up again I can easily spend $200 for 3 hours of entertainment out with friends, paying $1/hr for entertainment is the best bargain in entertainment, trying to make these developers the bad guy or evil needs to end. I am not "corporate apologist" I am a gamer who understands the difference between a charity and business.
I used to believe these things too, so I understand where you're coming from on this. As I started to learn more about industry trends, I came to realize I was wrong. That's probably because I was gaming back before GaaS existed. I remember how gaming used to work, and what it used to be like, as a matter of course. I used to say things like "oh, I'm getting good entertainment per hour" and then remembered "oh wait... didn't I used to just pay a flat, one-time sum for a game and get basically the same thing?" Oh. Ooooh.... oh no.
It used to be developers just made games and released finished products. That was the business model. It was a good one. It worked, and it was fair to the customer, and developers were successful too. Some games even got expansions made after the game was complete called DLCs. Those were fair to the customer too and net the developer more income for doing awesome job. Then, some developers got the idea of "what if we just cut content out of the game and sell it back later for more profit?" It happened - we started seeing day 1 DLCs. There was outrage about this at the time. Now, people barely remember this was something the industry chose to do that was bad for us as customers. And things have only escalated from there. Features that used to just be standard features in games have been taken out and converted to endless microtransactions. Developers design progression blockers and inconvenience so customers pay for the solution. None of this is good for game development or the customer.
It is hard to do and uncomfortable, but do a bit of research on the history of game design and game monetization. Be an informed customer. As mentioned, none of this means customer can't spend how they want, but it is important to be aware of how game design and monetization has changed over the past decade. It has not changed in directions that are good for the customer. Be informed and aware of this fact, especially if suffering from mental health challenges or addiction because the design really targets that sometimes. I wish this was not serious or a joke, but... it sadly is not.
0 -
tplink3r1✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can also p2w by buying gear with that money, so why not address the root of the issue, which is selling crowns for gold?VR16 Templar
VR3 Sorcerer0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends cash to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines (the in game equivalent), and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago. It left port once the crownstore started selling items that went beyond cosmetics, and crown sales were the winds that took it out to sea.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 11, 2021 9:14PM1 -
Jaxious79✭✭✭✭This game has been on the spectrum of pay-to-win for a long time, @Judgedread101071 - that's not anything new. And you're right - changing the XP progression for CP adds another dimension to that spectrum. Or rather, it extends an already existing dimension of that spectrum. As someone who is very harshly critical of ZoS's predatory monetization of this game, I'm not that worried about this. Though granted, the reason I'm not worried about this is because the pay-to-win skips are already so bad in this game this new extension really doesn't significantly change the picture. We're going from customers being able to pay for XP boosters to... still being able to pay for XP boosters. And skill lines. And skill points. *sigh*
I will go easy please explain ONE P2W element in ESO. I will wait.
What you described at the end of your post are all conveniences nothing to do with P2W.
Paying for convenience (pay-to-skip) is part of the pay-to-win spectrum. It grants a clear gameplay advantage in terms of time saved or invested (they say "time is money" after all), especially in a game that has no real win conditions like a GaaS (and MMOs are a type of GaaS).
If you have a problem calling it pay-to-win, then don't. What we call it doesn't matter - the fact that this is not a pro-customer way of approaching game design doesn't change with the label. Developers of GaaS deliberately create impediments to gameplay and then sell customers the solution instead of just... changing the game design or not selling these boosters in the first place. It's an addiction/money trap, deliberately designed as such, and the ethics of that are dubious at best.
Everything is part of the "P2W spectrum" to those who claim everything is P2W. You cant have a discussion with these people because they always move the goal post or expand their "spectrum". Nothing in ESO is P2W its that simple, you don't get to define P2W every time you don't like a system or game.
P2W is simple: buying an item that is ONLY available in a cash store and CAN NOT BE OBTAINED INGAME that gains an advantage. That is P2W nothing in ESO meets that threshold, no matter how much you move the goal post or expand your "spectrum" ESO is NOT P2W in any shape or form. Very few MMOs are.
I will never understand most those who falsely accuse an MMO of being P2W also accuse the company of being unethical yet still play the game. If I found a company unethical you can be sure I wouldnt not be playing or doing business with that company anymore. Just another example of these P2W people not having a leg to stand on with their baseless accusations.
*sigh*
This sort of response is why I usually don't use the phrase "pay-to-win" when discussing the problems of monetization in the video game industry today. Too many customers get hung up on the words used instead of paying attention to what is going on and how monetization models today are not good from a customer standpoint. I don't think the OP highlights that particularly well, but to say that these industry trends are baseless or not a problem is simply false unless you don't value your own time or money. We are not being given a good deal as customers and there is little reason for any of us to play the role of corporate apologist. If we want things to change - if we want to force developers to go back to respecting our time and money instead of constantly nickel and diming us for things - it is important to cry foul when foul is being done. Otherwise, they can and will (and already have) continue to make the deal worse and worse for us as customers.
To be clear - none of this means you can't (or shouldn't) play a game with bad monetization or support it in the ways you feel are acceptable. We are all here because we enjoy playing video games and want to see them be wonderful and amazing. I want them to be wonderful and amazing without taking the customer's wallet for a ride. I want our time and money to be respected, not to be manipulated into addiction and overspending. That's not a big ask and not hard to achieve.
I pay $15/month to play this game. I get 1500 or whatever crowns. If I want to spend another $50/month on extra crowns that is $65/month. Most months that I sub I can put in well over 15 hours. That is less than $1/hr of entertainment, even with that extra $50 I probably still hit $1/hr of entertainment a month.
ZOS is not out to get me or anyone, their monetization is not hidden its open for everyone to see. You decide what you want to spend I will decide what I want to spend and everyone else can decided for themselves. Its no up to you or anyone else to determine what others want to and enjoy spending their money on.
ZOS is not here to pat people on the back and telling them good boy/girl for playing. They are not a charity, they need to make money and offering NON P2W items in a store is NOT deceitful or unethical its a business decision and one that in no way states they don't respect their players.
Once sports open up again I can easily spend $200 for 3 hours of entertainment out with friends, paying $1/hr for entertainment is the best bargain in entertainment, trying to make these developers the bad guy or evil needs to end. I am not "corporate apologist" I am a gamer who understands the difference between a charity and business.
I used to believe these things too, so I understand where you're coming from on this. As I started to learn more about industry trends, I came to realize I was wrong. That's probably because I was gaming back before GaaS existed. I remember how gaming used to work, and what it used to be like, as a matter of course. I used to say things like "oh, I'm getting good entertainment per hour" and then remembered "oh wait... didn't I used to just pay a flat, one-time sum for a game and get basically the same thing?" Oh. Ooooh.... oh no.
It used to be developers just made games and released finished products. That was the business model. It was a good one. It worked, and it was fair to the customer, and developers were successful too. Some games even got expansions made after the game was complete called DLCs. Those were fair to the customer too and net the developer more income for doing awesome job. Then, some developers got the idea of "what if we just cut content out of the game and sell it back later for more profit?" It happened - we started seeing day 1 DLCs. There was outrage about this at the time. Now, people barely remember this was something the industry chose to do that was bad for us as customers. And things have only escalated from there. Features that used to just be standard features in games have been taken out and converted to endless microtransactions. Developers design progression blockers and inconvenience so customers pay for the solution. None of this is good for game development or the customer.
It is hard to do and uncomfortable, but do a bit of research on the history of game design and game monetization. Be an informed customer. As mentioned, none of this means customer can't spend how they want, but it is important to be aware of how game design and monetization has changed over the past decade. It has not changed in directions that are good for the customer. Be informed and aware of this fact, especially if suffering from mental health challenges or addiction because the design really targets that sometimes. I wish this was not serious or a joke, but... it sadly is not.
They are not out to get you. I am an informed customer and I have no issues with how I spend my money. $1/hr of entertainment is fair, I accept the conditions presented to me when I play these games I don't need to any more research especially if it will make me turn into some sorry victim.
There are far worse things in this world than a crown store the way some of you act about it is really strange.2 -
Jaxious79✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends gold to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines, and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago.
Its amazing how you guys parrot each other in an effort to push this fake non existent P2W stuff. Your ideas of P2W are so far from reality you guys now need to add the special term "spectrum" in order for it to fit.
ESO and almost every other major western MMO are NOT P2W. LIke someone else said go play and real P2W game and come back here.Edited by Jaxious79 on February 11, 2021 9:06PM2 -
bmnoble✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Even if you had hundreds of millions of gold which would take selling a hell of a lot of crowns more money wasted than most normal people would ever be able to spend on the game.
You would never be able to hunt down enough of the easy master writs in a month let alone a week, to reach CP3600, since there is always a limited supply created from daily writs, some players are hoarding there's now, the cheap writs are hunted down by re sellers especially now when the demand is about to shoot through the roof, some are selling right away other are hoarding to sell once the CP rework goes live or the first double XP event after it goes live.
Quite a few rich or well off players gold wise who plan to level that way are already keeping an eye out to buy the cheap ones when they browse traders.
The required mats both to level the craft skills required and do the actual writs are not going to be cheap either.
That and all the CP levels in the world are not going to make a player a god at the game, they win nothing, if they level without bothering to learn their class or how to use their skills properly, seen this plenty of times with people who rushed to CP810 and thought they would dominate either in PVP or suddenly become top tier DPS in PVE only to end up dying frequently or be kicked from groups for low damage dealing.
That and the new CP system does not let you use everything at once quite a few of the bonuses need to be slotted in limited slots like are skill bars, even at max they won't be able to use it all and will have to wait until they are out of combat to switch.1 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They are not out to get you. I am an informed customer and I have no issues with how I spend my money. $1/hr of entertainment is fair, I accept the conditions presented to me when I play these games I don't need to any more research especially if it will make me turn into some sorry victim.
There are far worse things in this world than a crown store the way some of you act about it is really strange.
The problems of video game monetization are reflective of far larger issues that we cannot discuss on these forums. It's not so strange when placed in that broader context. It's also not so strange when considering the deep love and affection many have for gaming and particular IPs.
In any case, research won't turn you into a "sorry victim" - it helps you understand industry trends and make more informed choices. Major publishers - the ones often called AAA developers - have trended in directions that are not pro-customer (or "out to get us" if you prefer that language). From half finished and broken launches to games full of microtransactions with no upper spending limit, getting a good deal as a gamer isn't as simple as it used to be. Just be saavy, and good luck.
And if you're me, call out industry BS when you see it for the love of gaming.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends gold to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines, and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago.
Its amazing how you guys parrot each other in an effort to push this fake non existent P2W stuff. Your ideas of P2W are so far from reality you guys now need to add the special term "spectrum" in order for it to fit.
ESO and almost every other major western MMO are NOT P2W. LIke someone else said go play and real P2W game and come back here.
It's amazing to me how you believe you have the definitive definition on a nebulous concept. Attempt to refute my logic or my arguments if you want, but saying I am right and you are wrong does not prove any kind of point. I think you mean, go play a P2W game that is higher on the spectrum. I have and I stopped. I also stated that I dont think eso is particularly high on the spectrum, but I do believe it is there. If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W. I would be interested in hearing how you personally win in an MMO.
Also, see the part in my post about heads exploding. Dont slip in the mess...0 -
Jaxious79✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends gold to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines, and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago.
Its amazing how you guys parrot each other in an effort to push this fake non existent P2W stuff. Your ideas of P2W are so far from reality you guys now need to add the special term "spectrum" in order for it to fit.
ESO and almost every other major western MMO are NOT P2W. LIke someone else said go play and real P2W game and come back here.
It's amazing to me how you believe you have the definitive definition on a nebulous concept. Attempt to refute my logic or my arguments if you want, but saying I am right and you are wrong does not prove any kind of point. I think you mean, go play a P2W game that is higher on the spectrum. I have and I stopped. I also stated that I dont think eso is particularly high on the spectrum, but I do believe it is there. If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W. I would be interested in hearing how you personally win in an MMO.
Also, see the part in my post about heads exploding. Dont slip in the mess...
Thats the point there is nothing to "Win" you guys who falsely claim its P2W are the ones who can't actually articulate what you are winning in this P2W scheme of a game.
Every MMO right now that launches a new feature has a few that run with this P2W nonsense it gets old and it kills time at work informing those who claim games like ESO are P2W that they are not. There is no P2W spectrum you don't just get to make up some fancy term so you can wiggle your way around the issue, that is not how things work.
In video games there is P2W (which is rare) and there is NOT P2W which most modern MMOs fall into.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even if you had hundreds of millions of gold which would take selling a hell of a lot of crowns more money wasted than most normal people would ever be able to spend on the game.
You would never be able to hunt down enough of the easy master writs in a month let alone a week, to reach CP3600, since there is always a limited supply created from daily writs, some players are hoarding there's now, the cheap writs are hunted down by re sellers especially now when the demand is about to shoot through the roof, some are selling right away other are hoarding to sell once the CP rework goes live or the first double XP event after it goes live.
Quite a few rich or well off players gold wise who plan to level that way are already keeping an eye out to buy the cheap ones when they browse traders.
The required mats both to level the craft skills required and do the actual writs are not going to be cheap either.
That and all the CP levels in the world are not going to make a player a god at the game, they win nothing, if they level without bothering to learn their class or how to use their skills properly, seen this plenty of times with people who rushed to CP810 and thought they would dominate either in PVP or suddenly become top tier DPS in PVE only to end up dying frequently or be kicked from groups for low damage dealing.
That and the new CP system does not let you use everything at once quite a few of the bonuses need to be slotted in limited slots like are skill bars, even at max they won't be able to use it all and will have to wait until they are out of combat to switch.
Ahh... But if you truly have deep pockets, you can buy the over priced ones. In theory, you can even move the market. Wouldn't be the first time that happened in ESO.
I assure you, if I started spamming in zone chat "Buying all Provisioning Writs for X, send COD" where X is 5 times the current market rate, I am going to get a LOT of them in the mail. I don't disagree that its not quite as trivial as OP makes it sounds to use cash to grind to 3600, but it would definitely be doable with a bit of time and effort. And certainly, if your goal was to race to 3600, you can do it way faster with unlimited cash than someone that does it by the book..
I also agree with the second bolded part, but that said, if two players are of equal skill and go head to head, the one with the higher CP up to a point (and that point is about to move) will have the advantage. I dont think there is a more clear cut definition of winning than two players engaging in a duel.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on February 11, 2021 10:18PM1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends gold to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines, and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago.
Its amazing how you guys parrot each other in an effort to push this fake non existent P2W stuff. Your ideas of P2W are so far from reality you guys now need to add the special term "spectrum" in order for it to fit.
ESO and almost every other major western MMO are NOT P2W. LIke someone else said go play and real P2W game and come back here.
It's amazing to me how you believe you have the definitive definition on a nebulous concept. Attempt to refute my logic or my arguments if you want, but saying I am right and you are wrong does not prove any kind of point. I think you mean, go play a P2W game that is higher on the spectrum. I have and I stopped. I also stated that I dont think eso is particularly high on the spectrum, but I do believe it is there. If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W. I would be interested in hearing how you personally win in an MMO.
Also, see the part in my post about heads exploding. Dont slip in the mess...
Thats the point there is nothing to "Win" you guys who falsely claim its P2W are the ones who can't actually articulate what you are winning in this P2W scheme of a game.
Every MMO right now that launches a new feature has a few that run with this P2W nonsense it gets old and it kills time at work informing those who claim games like ESO are P2W that they are not. There is no P2W spectrum you don't just get to make up some fancy term so you can wiggle your way around the issue, that is not how things work.
In video games there is P2W (which is rare) and there is NOT P2W which most modern MMOs fall into.
Hard disagree. Plenty of ways to win in ESO.
-I duel another player and kill him, I won.
-My group holds the world record for a trial, we won.
-I set the VMA world record, again, I won.
-My guild holds a housing contest, someone won that day, probably wasnt me. lol.
End of the day, I believe people take this stuff personally because they dont agree with P2W and therefore refuse to acknowledge that they may actually be participating in and contributing to a game that on some level practices it.
Lets put it this way. If ESO put a staff in the crownstore tomorrow that gave you 1000 spell damage. It was not available anywhere in game. Would that be pay 2 win? The next logical questions, how and why, if as you state, you cant win in an MMO?
0 -
Jeffrey530✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »This game has been on the P2W spectrum since crown gifting was introduced. P2W is not black and white. Some things are simply higher on the spectrum than others. I dont think ESO is particularly high on the P2W spectrum, but its certainly on it.
The same phenomenon that you are describing is already present today. If I want to join a godslayer group, I need to be at 810CP currently or nobody will take me seriously. Currently I can use cash, buy crowns, sell crowns, buy writs, and rapidly level. You can absolutely use cash in the current system to get yourself to the cap, which is certainly somewhere on the pay to win spectrum.
Is this new system that moved and blurred the finish line going to perhaps incentivize a lot more players to do the above, yep it will.
Will you see heads start exploding on the forums when you suggest ESO is P2W, yep you will. For some people, anything short of an uber powerful item that can only be paid for with cash is not P2W, but I believe that is a very narrow definition for a very broad concept.
Everyone thinks their definition of pay to win is correct. The reality is that most of them are wrong because they fail to follow the logic. We all know way "Pay" means, but "Winning" simply does not have the same definition for everyone in an MMO, and that is where you need to start. Something can be P2W for one person and not for another, but that doesnt make your personal definition correct.
You can absolutely pay cash to get a competitive edge in ESO, depending on the competition in question, whether its winning your guilds housing contest, or being the first to get a trifecta on patch day.
Hypothetical: Let's say a new trial and class are released on the same day. The two best raid groups are trying to be the world first on getting a trifecta. They are both evenly matched in terms of skill. The new class is also Meta for DPS. Raid group one spends gold to buy mages guild and psijic skill lines on patch day which are needed for optimal DPS/group comp and they clear it that evening. Raid 2 spends patch day furiously grinding skilllines, and clears it the following day. Group 1 won by any definition of the term, and paying helped their cause. That Hypothetical aint all the hypothetical, and its just one example.
Now that we have a softer cap on what it takes to truly maximize a build, and now that that cap is higher than it has been in years, people are going to use cash to ease the journey. I dont see how that is not somewhere on the p2w spectrum, but this game has been there for a while and its not the new CP system in it of itself that put it there. That ship sailed a while ago.
Its amazing how you guys parrot each other in an effort to push this fake non existent P2W stuff. Your ideas of P2W are so far from reality you guys now need to add the special term "spectrum" in order for it to fit.
ESO and almost every other major western MMO are NOT P2W. LIke someone else said go play and real P2W game and come back here.
It's amazing to me how you believe you have the definitive definition on a nebulous concept. Attempt to refute my logic or my arguments if you want, but saying I am right and you are wrong does not prove any kind of point. I think you mean, go play a P2W game that is higher on the spectrum. I have and I stopped. I also stated that I dont think eso is particularly high on the spectrum, but I do believe it is there. If you want to define P2W, you have to define the W. I would be interested in hearing how you personally win in an MMO.
Also, see the part in my post about heads exploding. Dont slip in the mess...
Thats the point there is nothing to "Win" you guys who falsely claim its P2W are the ones who can't actually articulate what you are winning in this P2W scheme of a game.
Every MMO right now that launches a new feature has a few that run with this P2W nonsense it gets old and it kills time at work informing those who claim games like ESO are P2W that they are not. There is no P2W spectrum you don't just get to make up some fancy term so you can wiggle your way around the issue, that is not how things work.
In video games there is P2W (which is rare) and there is NOT P2W which most modern MMOs fall into.
Hard disagree. Plenty of ways to win in ESO.
-I duel another player and kill him, I won.
-My group holds the world record for a trial, we won.
-I set the VMA world record, again, I won.
-My guild holds a housing contest, someone won that day, probably wasnt me. lol.
End of the day, I believe people take this stuff personally because they dont agree with P2W and therefore refuse to acknowledge that they may actually be participating in and contributing to a game that on some level practices it.
Lets put it this way. If ESO put a staff in the crownstore tomorrow that gave you 1000 spell damage. It was not available anywhere in game. Would that be pay 2 win? The next logical questions, how and why, if as you state, you cant win in an MMO?
That will be the most accurate description of pay2win because you can't obtain it in game and it increases your power directly. That isn't what's happening in eso though, eso is at most pay for convenience, and in this case it isn't even that, since I cannot see converting crowns to gold and using it to buy ingame items as remotely similar to anything p2w, because we can all earn that gold and do the same right? moreover, as many people said, worried abt cp in pvp? go nocp. In pve honestly I can't grasp the concept of winning against others, arent everyone working towards a common goal.
We contribute and participate in this business format because we accepted the fact that companies are't charities and mmos require a huge amount of money just to maintain, and why are we faulting companies that try to profit as much as possible right?
I sincerely hope some of you will develop and grow a mmo of similar content and quality and only make it buy to play for play without any other ways to earn more money.1 -
Psiion✭✭✭✭Greetings all,
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