Mistform and HPregen?

olsborg · February 2021

Can we please nerf this into smithereens? Having 3-4k+ hp regen while mistforming is the most broken and stupid thing in the game atm imo, can we please make this patch address that before it hits live? I can mistform and then kite around a rock for 5 seconds and my hp is basicly back to full.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

Fawn4287 · February 2021

Mist form as a whole is overperforming, 75% mitigation (often coupled with undying) is just far too much considering what major and minor protection now offer. builds can perma mist form in live, the ability to cycle mist form and block cast heals in CP PvP is just easy mode survival, especially considering you can do this with a fairly high damage build, sitting in mistform whilst your DOTs and proc sets eat away at someone, turn, toggle and burn then go back in to basically being impervious to damage is just easy mode survival.

amir412 · February 2021

This is the most broken mechanics to ever introduced into this game.
75% dmg reduction, with high hp regen, cost nothing, can't be snared or cc - it's basically god mode.
Totally broken.

Massacre_Wurm · February 2021

amir412 wrote: »

This is the most broken mechanics to ever introduced into this game.
75% dmg reduction, with high hp regen, cost nothing, can't be snared or cc - it's basically god mode.
Totally broken.

Last time i checked hp regen and cc immunity cant kill anyone. So much for "god mode".
Proc sets is the problem not mistform. Stop trying to make vampire even more useless.

dcmgti · February 2021

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it. And HP is really nice on some classes but you have to give up damage to get it.

Have you seen the amount of cc's in open world? Or cc break doesn't work, cc immunity doesn't work snares stack almost everyone has a snare of some kind.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

olsborg · February 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it.

I get your point of view. But things need and do get nerfed alot of the time because of the specific builds that somehow take advantage of something that ends up being broken/overperforming/unbalanced, why should mist form be any different?

If something has the potential to be "exploited" to the point where it overperforms so much that it basically carries people through hardships in pvp that otherwise would/should not be possible...take action. Thx.

Maggusemm · February 2021

Mistform should be only possible to use in a vampire stage that reduces health regeneration to zero.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

olsborg wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it.

I get your point of view. But things need and do get nerfed alot of the time because of the specific builds that somehow take advantage of something that ends up being broken/overperforming/unbalanced, why should mist form be any different?

If something has the potential to be "exploited" to the point where it overperforms so much that it basically carries people through hardships in pvp that otherwise would/should not be possible...take action. Thx.

There are ways to stop the "abuse" of Mist Form without making it worthless for everyone else.

Maggusemm wrote: »

Mistform should be only possible to use in a vampire stage that reduces health regeneration to zero.

Or, alternatively, Mist Form itself could reduce health regeneration to 0 (or some other non-maximum amount) while transformed. Being forced into going Stage 4 just to use the one worthwhile Vampire skill isn't a good idea IMO, especially since it would be possible for your stage to drop down at an inopportune time, greying out a potentially critical skill. Most players would simply ditch Vampirism all together and switch to Race Against Time.

Josira · February 2021

make mistform not give health regen. change blood frenzy into something that at least 'ticks a single box if any as to what it means to be a vampire' update the animations for the spamable to not look like a silly slap,and change blood scion to not be a reskinned ult,making it an actual seperate transformation,with claw attacks,and a unique look that doesnt scream "ive been hitting the skooma for the past 50 years...no not that weak shite....the double strength balmora blue"
heck even keep it as a reskin and make it into a bat-like creature and I'll actually want to use it for more then a more fitting time to play clown music then trying to theorycraft a non proctank build in the current meta
Fixed mistform. and fixed vampire.
yes I did just list the entirety of my complaints into a thread that is largely unrelated. yes I will likely regret doing so. yes I am in a sleep deprived frenzy.

Jaxaxo · February 2021

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

Um, there is quite big diffrence, while kiting u still can be stunned, hit by aoe/dots/etc while in mist u get 75% dmg mitigation and cant be stunned? Also the cost of this is basically nonexistent (due to how mag cost reduction works on mist). And that "even higher hp rec" is basically 10% more, are u aware?

dcmgti wrote: »

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it. And HP is really nice on some classes but you have to give up damage to get it.

Have you seen the amount of cc's in open world? Or cc break doesn't work, cc immunity doesn't work snares stack almost everyone has a snare of some kind.

why completely useless? Just make it like @Qbiken suggested in other thread. % mitigation depends on stage of the vampire, that way it would balance itself with hp rec, easy fix of current problem

amir412 · February 2021

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

This is the most broken mechanics to ever introduced into this game.
75% dmg reduction, with high hp regen, cost nothing, can't be snared or cc - it's basically god mode.
Totally broken.

Last time i checked hp regen and cc immunity cant kill anyone. So much for "god mode".
Proc sets is the problem not mistform. Stop trying to make vampire even more useless.

Clearly you haven't faced such cheese builds.

Merllow · February 2021

amir412 wrote: »

This is the most broken mechanics to ever introduced into this game.
75% dmg reduction, with high hp regen, cost nothing, can't be snared or cc - it's basically god mode.
Totally broken.

first you need to overclock the regen, losing in damage. And for some reason Rolldodge with 100% mitigation is a normal thing). I do not use myst form, but the game is full of unfairness

Merllow · February 2021

Jaxaxo wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

Um, there is quite big diffrence, while kiting u still can be stunned, hit by aoe/dots/etc while in mist u get 75% dmg mitigation and cant be stunned? Also the cost of this is basically nonexistent (due to how mag cost reduction works on mist). And that "even higher hp rec" is basically 10% more, are u aware?

dcmgti wrote: »

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it. And HP is really nice on some classes but you have to give up damage to get it.

Have you seen the amount of cc's in open world? Or cc break doesn't work, cc immunity doesn't work snares stack almost everyone has a snare of some kind.

why completely useless? Just make it like @Qbiken suggested in other thread. % mitigation depends on stage of the vampire, that way it would balance itself with hp rec, easy fix of current problem

this ability is used by assembly mana, because they cannot use rolldodge and breakfree, as well as stamina classes

Sephyr · February 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

Wow another one? All this whining about mist form and it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it. And HP is really nice on some classes but you have to give up damage to get it.

Have you seen the amount of cc's in open world? Or cc break doesn't work, cc immunity doesn't work snares stack almost everyone has a snare of some kind.

Yep, another one that again ignores all the actual problems and solely focuses on the ability itself.

Merllow · February 2021

Josira wrote: »

make mistform not give health regen. change blood frenzy into something that at least 'ticks a single box if any as to what it means to be a vampire' update the animations for the spamable to not look like a silly slap,and change blood scion to not be a reskinned ult,making it an actual seperate transformation,with claw attacks,and a unique look that doesnt scream "ive been hitting the skooma for the past 50 years...no not that weak shite....the double strength balmora blue"
heck even keep it as a reskin and make it into a bat-like creature and I'll actually want to use it for more then a more fitting time to play clown music then trying to theorycraft a non proctank build in the current meta
Fixed mistform. and fixed vampire.
yes I did just list the entirety of my complaints into a thread that is largely unrelated. yes I will likely regret doing so. yes I am in a sleep deprived frenzy.

yes you are right, vampires are worse than werewolves in everything. What is the overall increase in ability cost, increased damage taken, kill health regeneration

Jaxaxo · February 2021

Merllow wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

Um, there is quite big diffrence, while kiting u still can be stunned, hit by aoe/dots/etc while in mist u get 75% dmg mitigation and cant be stunned? Also the cost of this is basically nonexistent (due to how mag cost reduction works on mist). And that "even higher hp rec" is basically 10% more, are u aware?

dcmgti wrote: »

[snip] it will end up completely useless to players who dont cheese it. And HP is really nice on some classes but you have to give up damage to get it.

Have you seen the amount of cc's in open world? Or cc break doesn't work, cc immunity doesn't work snares stack almost everyone has a snare of some kind.

why completely useless? Just make it like @Qbiken suggested in other thread. % mitigation depends on stage of the vampire, that way it would balance itself with hp rec, easy fix of current problem

this ability is used by assembly mana, because they cannot use rolldodge and breakfree, as well as stamina classes

there was reason why reduce stamina cost was "fixed" and doesnt work on roll dodge or break free. Atm mist form is overperforming for same reason as defensive mechanic. For non existent cost. But tbh that's not the issue with it. Just nerf the hp rec in it, i doubt ppl talking about mist have problems with anything else.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Um, there is quite big diffrence, while kiting u still can be stunned, hit by aoe/dots/etc while in mist u get 75% dmg mitigation and cant be stunned? Also the cost of this is basically nonexistent (due to how mag cost reduction works on mist). And that "even higher hp rec" is basically 10% more, are u aware?

You just touched on the real, central problem to all of these complaints that have been popping up on the forums lately - the interaction between cost reduction enchants and Mist Form. I've mentioned this so many times in other threads, yet everyone keeps asking for nerfs that would basically ruin Mist Form entirely, even for those of us that aren't "abusing" it.

Can anyone think of another skill, especially one that sees any widespread use, that would be impacted if cost reduction enchants only applied to the initial cast of a spell? Or if there were some %-based cap on how much one could reduce the cost of any given ability? Altering the glyphs, including in ways that wouldn't be much/any of a nerf to them outside of the interaction with Mist Form, seems like a much better way to handle these niche builds.

Also, that 10% health regen can add up to a fairly substantial amount when looking at the numbers that some people are getting now. Which, again, is an issue all on its own. It seems some people only care about ridiculous health regen numbers when it applies to someone in Mist Form, since in theory they might get stunned and die if they're on a Stamina build and not using immovability potions. The fact that someone in Mist Form is going to get stunned the instant they exit it and try to go back on the offensive is never mentioned. Nor are Stamina's other myriad advantages over Magicka. Nor are the problems associated with using Mist Form in other scenarios, like fighting with/against organized groups.

Jaxaxo wrote: »

why completely useless? Just make it like @Qbiken suggested in other thread. % mitigation depends on stage of the vampire, that way it would balance itself with hp rec, easy fix of current problem

I've already addressed that suggestion in another thread, and yes it would kill Mist Form for the vast majority of builds. And wouldn't even address the problem of it being "free," that so many people are upset about.

relentless_turnip · February 2021

I still think it should be reverted to an upfront cost with a time limit or a ramping cost beyond 4 secs or if it just used another 4k magicka to stay in it.

It was a lot more balanced before it was changed to a toggle. You had to make choice as it cost you a lot to use. Now you can duck in and out of it without penalty.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I still think it should be reverted to an upfront cost with a time limit or a ramping cost beyond 4 secs or if it just used another 4k magicka to stay in it.

It was a lot more balanced before it was changed to a toggle. You had to make choice as it cost you a lot to use. Now you can duck in and out of it without penalty.

Once the ability to keep Major Expedition when canceling it early went away, that iteration of Mist Form became pretty rare in BGs. That version of the ability, plus the other drawbacks of Vampirism, causes it to fall too far behind Race Against Time, IMO (especially if the Malacath Ring ever gets nerfed).

Decimus · February 2021

On live it is absolutely necessary in its current form to preserve any fun in PvP - otherwise you just die no matter what the moment a few skilless players decide to spam gap closer on you with proc sets as the damage over times outdamage heal over times no matter the build.

It's literally a mathematical impossibility to survive adequately in current meta without mist form, unless you're a sorc and manage to streak out fast enough for example or play a 100% troll tank build (i.e. 3+ defensive sets).

Next patch (this PTS) is different however with the 10% nerf to proc sets & significant buff to healing (+1k weapon/spell dmg), as well as various new passives that increase block mitigation - it's again viable to survive without mist form and this alone is likely going to reduce the amount of mist forms we'll see.

Based on the current healing/mitigation numbers on PTS I'd say it's fine as it is (remember, you can't have any of the buffed vigors/rapid regens etc while in mist).

Vevvev · February 2021

Josira wrote: »

make mistform not give health regen. change blood frenzy into something that at least 'ticks a single box if any as to what it means to be a vampire' update the animations for the spamable to not look like a silly slap,and change blood scion to not be a reskinned ult,making it an actual seperate transformation,with claw attacks,and a unique look that doesnt scream "ive been hitting the skooma for the past 50 years...no not that weak shite....the double strength balmora blue"
heck even keep it as a reskin and make it into a bat-like creature and I'll actually want to use it for more then a more fitting time to play clown music then trying to theorycraft a non proctank build in the current meta
Fixed mistform. and fixed vampire.
yes I did just list the entirety of my complaints into a thread that is largely unrelated. yes I will likely regret doing so. yes I am in a sleep deprived frenzy.

^ this. Please do this ZOS.

Wing · February 2021

no healing in mist form, of any kind, except from the singular morph itself.

dcmgti · February 2021

Wing wrote: »

no healing in mist form, of any kind, except from the singular morph itself.

Tanks can heal, buff/debuff, chain, troll, apply procs, heal with procs and keep 15-20 people people busy. And if that tank is wearing the cheesy Harbinger set then its guaranteed that some of those attackers will die.

Werewolves can time fear with Crimson, spam fear(which is extremely hard to break for some reason), have insane health recovery, have insane resistances, apply defile, stay in WW form forever, not die and then run around and troll people. If you so much as light attacked that WW then you're stuck in combat for an eternity.

I see this stuff in Cyrodiil every single day. I have yet to see someone just chilling in mist form.

Fawn4287 · February 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

no healing in mist form, of any kind, except from the singular morph itself.

Tanks can heal, buff/debuff, chain, troll, apply procs, heal with procs and keep 15-20 people people busy. And if that tank is wearing the cheesy Harbinger set then its guaranteed that some of those attackers will die.

Werewolves can time fear with Crimson, spam fear(which is extremely hard to break for some reason), have insane health recovery, have insane resistances, apply defile, stay in WW form forever, not die and then run around and troll people. If you so much as light attacked that WW then you're stuck in combat for an eternity.

I see this stuff in Cyrodiil every single day. I have yet to see someone just chilling in mist form.

An anecdotal approach to an argument whilst presenting irrelevant information helps no one. Maybe if you played some small vs large scale you would see how frustrating it is when you wipe a large group only for those 1 or 2 templars turn on turtle mode and kite around a rock in mist form for 10 minutes with absolutely 0 real world options to kill them, When playing as a solo or duo its as though I can slot some hyper specific poison to deal with this or glyph to deal with that. Its not like their a thews or a troll tank that is specced purely in to survival either, they are usually some dot proc set build in heavy rocking a vat destro and grothdar doing damage for 0 cost then mist form for a near 0 cost.

Canned_Apples · February 2021

amir412 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

This is the most broken mechanics to ever introduced into this game.
75% dmg reduction, with high hp regen, cost nothing, can't be snared or cc - it's basically god mode.
Totally broken.

Last time i checked hp regen and cc immunity cant kill anyone. So much for "god mode".
Proc sets is the problem not mistform. Stop trying to make vampire even more useless.

Clearly you haven't faced such cheese builds.

People rarely complained about mist form until @ZOS_BrianWheeler introduced the cheese build meta. They are also possible with and without mist form and will not be leaving anytime soon because @ZOS_BrianWheeler clearly favors them over actual combat.

On the off off off off off, hell has frozen over, chance that they get rid of the proc meta, the complaints of mist form will go back to normal.
....but they still think the dot meta was a success....so........,,..,,,,

dcmgti · February 2021

Fawn4287 wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

no healing in mist form, of any kind, except from the singular morph itself.

Tanks can heal, buff/debuff, chain, troll, apply procs, heal with procs and keep 15-20 people people busy. And if that tank is wearing the cheesy Harbinger set then its guaranteed that some of those attackers will die.

Werewolves can time fear with Crimson, spam fear(which is extremely hard to break for some reason), have insane health recovery, have insane resistances, apply defile, stay in WW form forever, not die and then run around and troll people. If you so much as light attacked that WW then you're stuck in combat for an eternity.

I see this stuff in Cyrodiil every single day. I have yet to see someone just chilling in mist form.

An anecdotal approach to an argument whilst presenting irrelevant information helps no one. Maybe if you played some small vs large scale you would see how frustrating it is when you wipe a large group only for those 1 or 2 templars turn on turtle mode and kite around a rock in mist form for 10 minutes with absolutely 0 real world options to kill them, When playing as a solo or duo its as though I can slot some hyper specific poison to deal with this or glyph to deal with that. Its not like their a thews or a troll tank that is specced purely in to survival either, they are usually some dot proc set build in heavy rocking a vat destro and grothdar doing damage for 0 cost then mist form for a near 0 cost.

Edited for my own conscious.

Ok you win. Glad to know you know exactly how I play in Cyrodiil.

People say mist form is "unkillable", I mentioned the others because those are "unkillable" unless they get zerged down, even then sometimes they still don't die.

YandereGirlfriend · February 2021

I would take a base movement speed increase for Mist Form in exchange for disabling Health Regen when in the form.

MentalxHammer · February 2021

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

The problem is absolutely not hp regen. The problem is clearly infinite mistform uptime.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

MentalxHammer wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

The problem is absolutely not hp regen. The problem is clearly infinite mistform uptime.

I've been in numerous threads, including this one (read post #18 above), pointing out the problem with how Mist Form's channel and cost reduction enchants interact.

But HP regen itself is also a problem when people build for it, though that is in no way limited to Mist Form...which is what I was trying to point out to the OP. He seems to think that it's a problem for someone with Mist Form to have multiple thousands of HP regen, but not a problem when Stamina builds have that same amount, plus hundreds more (thanks to not being Vampires) healing them up during dodge roll spam and sprinting around LOS (and don't forget the Vigor ticks going on at the same time).

Wing · February 2021

wheem_ESO wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

While I don't disagree, I think the real problem is HP regen itself, rather than anything specific to Mist Form. I don't see why it would be so unacceptable to spend 5 seconds kiting in Mist Form with high HP regen, yet totally fine to Stam-kite (dodge roll, sprint, maybe brief blocking in some cases) with even higher HP regen than the Vampire has, while also having Vigor's HOT ticking at the same time. Not to mention the ability to re-buff and whatnot at the same time.

Reducing, or even outright negating, HP regen in Mist Form isn't necessarily a terrible idea IMO, but that only addresses one relatively small facet of the larger problem.

The problem is absolutely not hp regen. The problem is clearly infinite mistform uptime.

I've been in numerous threads, including this one (read post #18 above), pointing out the problem with how Mist Form's channel and cost reduction enchants interact.

But HP regen itself is also a problem when people build for it, though that is in no way limited to Mist Form...which is what I was trying to point out to the OP. He seems to think that it's a problem for someone with Mist Form to have multiple thousands of HP regen, but not a problem when Stamina builds have that same amount, plus hundreds more (thanks to not being Vampires) healing them up during dodge roll spam and sprinting around LOS (and don't forget the Vigor ticks going on at the same time).

the difference is effect and counterplay.

dodge roll spam can still be hit with aoe and channeled damage, can still be effected by unblockable and undodgeable stuns, can be snared, and dodge roll itself has an associated cost increase to rapid successive uses.

mist form has none of that, there is no counterplay, nothing you can do to stop it unless the user itself shuts it off or runs out of magicka, both of those options being under their knowledge and control.

im sure you can comprehend how people might not care about health regen all that much until you stack 75% damage reduction and complete CC immunity on top of it, that might push it into the realm of being a bit of a problem.

thats near as quadrupling the effective health regen of the user on top of CC immunity.