NOCP PVP Healing Is Oppressively Strong on PTS Compared to LIVE

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2021

Overly strong heals make the game slow paced and boring, and make dots/pressure damage nearly worthless compared to burst. Although the update looks great overall, I think healing is one area that has gotten by the dev testing. Live is already a tank/heal/proc meta (particularly in premade group battlegrounds); which almost always reach the time limit and end with as little as 5 kills per team in a match (when three good teams with healers play against each other).

The new base stats are an awesome addition to the game and should improve nocp PVP particularly except for one oversight: nocp healing got boosted tremendously compared to live. The new base stats give an average nocp character roughly 25-30% more skill damage and healing (assuming heals scale the same as damage), 10% more health, and 10% reduced damage taken. This translates to skills doing about 15-20% more damage than live, and procs doing 10% less damage than live. However healing got 25-30% stronger on the PTS in nocp than on live.

The net effect here is that nocp is going to play more like CP now, and the unkillable tank/heal meta only got worse. Nobody is going to die in BGs with healers unless the battle spirit healing penalty is put back to 60% (which would only be an 11.1% reduction compared to battle spirit at 55%). This alone wouldn't even be enough to prevent extremely slow paced heal/tank gameplay with this update. Many of my friends in this game are healers and even they agree that the game is incredibly boring when nobody dies or it takes several minutes to kill a single person.

Dracane · February 2021

Healing is crazy on pts without cp.
I am unsure what to do about it though. Reducing Battle Spirit seems an easy step, but it won't change that overperforming self heals remain very strong and already weaker heals get even weaker. My dark deal heal seems more and more outdated with each patch where all healing gets stronger but dark deal remains a static value.

Kurat · February 2021

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

Moloch1514 · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

Agreed.

Vevvev · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

I don't know about that as my DPS/healer has been getting away with a lot she really shouldn't. There is so much healing in this game you might as well not have a dedicated healer.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

I can't say for sure whether or not I think healing needs tweaks before the next update goes live, but I certainly don't think it needs any broad nerfs on the current live servers. Certain abilities may need to be tweaked a bit, but another Battlespirit healing nerf would leave some Magicka Classes without any real survivability. We can't dodge or block nearly as much as Stam can, there are a lot of calls for Mist Form nerfs (which is already expensive for those who don't abuse cost reduction enchants), and those of us that are forced into using procs for offense have pretty bad healing numbers already.

As I said in Discord the other night, I don't think we should ever really expect full premade 4v4v4 Deathmatch games to end with one team getting 510 points, unless two of the premades are really weak compared to the third. Because if it's possible to get the 34 kills necessary to achieve that score in less than 15 minutes, even if every team has a dedicated healer, what happens in solo queued games when it's fairly likely that most teams won't have a healer? It would probably just be a long chain of near-1-shots with the game ending extremely early, and probably not being all that fun for most players - especially those with lesser experience.

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

It's a two-way street, you know, as PvP is frequently negatively effected by changes that are centered around PvE. Or, as is the case with my Magicka Necromancer, our class toolkit stays on the trash heap probably due to fears that buffs necessary for PvP would cause a lot of PvE players to get upset. That said, it's hard to see how a change to Battlespirit, as suggested in the OP, would have any impact whatsoever on PvE.

And I've said it before, but PvP balance should absolutely take precedence over PvE balance, since it's far more likely to actually change the outcome of gameplay. I've been around MMOs for a while, and unless the gap between classes in PvE gets quite large, it's really not that big of a deal. The overwhelming majority of the time someone points to some imbalance in PvE, even if they're 100% correct in their analysis, the only resulting casualty is some egos. This is even more true for ESO than most other MMOs, since there aren't critical debuffs being locked behind specific classes (like Everquest 1 way back in the day, for example, where trying to tank anything without a Shaman slowing the boss was virtually impossible).

sabresandiego_ESO · February 2021

Wheem: Healing is 25% stronger on PTS in nocp than on live because of the added base stats. Damage from skills is only 15% stronger on PTS in nocp because of the 10% damage reduction, and damage from procs is 10% weaker on PTS nocp because of the 10% damage reduction. This means that the gap between heals and skills is 10% in healings favor for skills, and 35% in healings favor against procs - compared to nocp on live.

This is going to translate to extremely boring nocp gameplay where nobody dies outside of pure burst. Dots will be nearly useless and healers will make games endless stalemates. The game becomes a burst/heal/tank meta where the matches will be extremely low scoring and the few deaths which happen will be due to massive unhealable burst lining up. Pressure builds and dot builds will be next to worthless.

echo2omega · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

What is PVE?

It's PVP vs and AI controlled opponent.

So the real thing they should do is balance everything for PVP and then update/upgrade the opponent AI then PVE might actually be interesting and challenging to play rather than the same fight every time.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Wheem: Healing is 25% stronger on PTS in nocp than on live because of the added base stats. Damage from skills is only 15% stronger on PTS in nocp because of the 10% damage reduction, and damage from procs is 10% weaker on PTS nocp because of the 10% damage reduction. This means that the gap between heals and skills is 10% in healings favor for skills, and 35% in healings favor against procs - compared to nocp on live.

This is going to translate to extremely boring nocp gameplay where nobody dies outside of pure burst. Dots will be nearly useless and healers will make games endless stalemates. The game becomes a burst/heal/tank meta where the matches will be extremely low scoring and the few deaths which happen will be due to massive unhealable burst lining up. Pressure builds and dot builds will be next to worthless.

Like I said above, I can't say for sure whether or not I think healing for the next update needs to be nerfed, since "real" PvP on the PTS is hard to come by. CP-enabled duels are by no means representative of Battlegrounds or Cyrodiil (especially no-CP), but if we can get enough people to run some games on the PTS I might be able to make more of a judgment call.

Qbiken · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

Tanks can sustain and survive without a healer, PvE community don't care.

PvE tanks gets nerfed so that a healer is needed to keep them alive and they all lose their mind.

And seeing how PvE gets sets like Arkasis and Dead-Water's Guile nerfed (just to name two examples of sets that got nerfed 100% because of PvE), I'd say adjustments goes both ways.

And why do I get the feeling that everytime sabre makes a thread it's always to cause a change that benefits his/hers very specific playstye in BG's?

Teeba_Shei · February 2021

So people are gaining damage, but you think 10% more healing is completely over the top? Why don't you test it before making posts about how no cp pvp will be too slow. People tend to instantly explode in no cp right now if they aren't running 40k HP.

Olupajmibanan · February 2021

Qbiken wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

PvE tanks gets nerfed so that a healer is needed to keep them alive and they all lose their mind.

Why are we asking to nerf heals in this thread then?

Let me answer that, because of PvP whiners. The only way to nerf heals in PvP without the nerf leaking to PvE is to rework Battle Spirit. Just an increase in Battle Spirit healing reduction is not a solution and would cause more harm than good. COMPLETE REWORK OF BATTLE SPIRIT IS NEEDED, so they can properly balance PvP without affecting PvE.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Qbiken wrote: »

And seeing how PvE gets sets like Arkasis and Dead-Water's Guile nerfed (just to name two examples of sets that got nerfed 100% because of PvE), I'd say adjustments goes both ways.

Also looks like all the nerfs to things like Elf-Bane and 7th Legion are 100% PvE related, due to people trying to cheese a few extra points on some "score" metric by using sets and swapping them with addons before engaging a boss fight. It seems so silly, but now PvP has to pay a price for it.

Larcomar · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Wheem: Healing is 25% stronger on PTS in nocp than on live because of the added base stats. Damage from skills is only 15% stronger on PTS in nocp because of the 10% damage reduction, and damage from procs is 10% weaker on PTS nocp because of the 10% damage reduction. This means that the gap between heals and skills is 10% in healings favor for skills, and 35% in healings favor against procs - compared to nocp on live.

This is going to translate to extremely boring nocp gameplay where nobody dies outside of pure burst. Dots will be nearly useless and healers will make games endless stalemates. The game becomes a burst/heal/tank meta where the matches will be extremely low scoring and the few deaths which happen will be due to massive unhealable burst lining up. Pressure builds and dot builds will be next to worthless.

You forgot the bit where they're going to "test" removing any proc sets or sets with a conditional ability from the game. I think it's actually going to be quite funny watching a bunch of extremely tanky people with buffed stats, strong heals and no damage slapping each other repeatedly with the proverbial equivalent of a stick of soggy celery.... Maybe not classic pvp but top comedy value.... for the first hour or two of the fight at least

CaperGuy · February 2021

They could probably test undoing the Major/Minor Defile nerfs or just tweak the numbers, and they could always look at tweaking the amounts of heal absorption stuff like soldier of anguish proc, traumatic poisons, and time stop.

Bucky_13 · February 2021

Kurat wrote: »

They cant just nerf everything because PVPers complain. Pve tanks got shafted because of pvp again, healers are already not needed for most content so let's nerf them even more?
Pvp should be separated or removed from the game. It's only small part of the game but it doesn't make sense why they let it dictate the majority of the game.

One of the the things mentioned in the OP is battle spirit, which is the best way to deal with this as it will only apply to PvP and thus leave PvE alone. This would solve the issues for PvP players, and also your issue here since you wouldn't be affected whatsoever.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

Krulzuk wrote: »

They could probably test undoing the Major/Minor Defile nerfs or just tweak the numbers, and they could always look at tweaking the amounts of heal absorption stuff like soldier of anguish proc, traumatic poisons, and time stop.

The only way they should ever consider buffing defile, even by a little bit, is if it's made equally available to every single class - both Magicka and Stamina.

katorga · February 2021

Healing bonuses in warfare cp total 15% and are all passive, not slottable (unless I have the outdated spreadsheet).

Make the 10% healing CP slottable, and now you have to choose between damage, mitigation or healing.

UntouchableHunter · February 2021

From the pvp perspective classe like magdk are dead next patch.

How can you using dots, with no execute kill and bad mobility kill another player with crazy heal, crazy mobility, crazy armor and crazy health recovery?

Vevvev · February 2021

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

From the pvp perspective classe like magdk are dead next patch.

How can you using dots, with no execute kill and bad mobility kill another player with crazy heal, crazy mobility, crazy armor and crazy health recovery?

As a magDK already struggling with this the answer is simple... You don't.

Massacre_Wurm · February 2021

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

From the pvp perspective classe like magdk are dead next patch.

How can you using dots, with no execute kill and bad mobility kill another player with crazy heal, crazy mobility, crazy armor and crazy health recovery?

Why should you ? if i invest in "crazy" armor and health recovery is should be able to survive at least 1v1 regardless of your class and damage. Proc sets is the problem not health recovery , armor , ect.

ExistingRug61 · February 2021

katorga wrote: »

Healing bonuses in warfare cp total 15% and are all passive, not slottable (unless I have the outdated spreadsheet).

Make the 10% healing CP slottable, and now you have to choose between damage, mitigation or healing.

@katorga
This was changed in 6.3.2, for exactly the reason you stated (plus it reduces vertical progression a bit, which is nice)

From the patch notes:

The following skills are now slotted rather than passive to better mirror the other specific bonus type mechanics, such as damage done or damage taken:
Focused Mending
Soothing Tide
Swift Renewal

Plus Blessed (the passive general healing done star) was one of the many stars to be reduced to only 4 stages max, so 4% instead of 5%.

Given players in pvp will likely favour the dps slottables over the healing ones, this probably means that in 6.3.2 healing is going to be about 10% weaker than it was in 6.3.0.

But this only applies to the CP environment.

As far as I can tell OP is correct in the assessment that heals are relatively speaking stronger when compared to damage in no-cp due to the added base stats and mitigation.

Edit:
Thinking about this a bit more it should be noted that this effect of stronger heals only applies to heals that scale with damage/max resource and not health scaling heals. Health scaling heals will only be slightly stronger in no-cp as the extra base health is slightly more than the loss of the battle spirit health (removed in 6.3.2). Also getting lesser benefit are heals that heal from damage done (ie: Swallow Soul, sweeps etc.).

Given this disproportionate effect I am not sure that something like a change to battle spirit would be a good idea, as this would mean classes that rely primarily on heals from damage and health heals, ie: dark cloak MagNB, would actually be worse off.

Canned_Apples · February 2021

Synapsis123 wrote: »

So people are gaining damage, but you think 10% more healing is completely over the top? Why don't you test it before making posts about how no cp pvp will be too slow. People tend to instantly explode in no cp right now if they aren't running 40k HP.

Light attack- proc- proc- proc- heal- light attack- proc- proc- proc- proc- proc- proc- proc
@ZOS_BrianWheeler ’s meta.

milllaurie · February 2021

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Krulzuk wrote: »

They could probably test undoing the Major/Minor Defile nerfs or just tweak the numbers, and they could always look at tweaking the amounts of heal absorption stuff like soldier of anguish proc, traumatic poisons, and time stop.

The only way they should ever consider buffing defile, even by a little bit, is if it's made equally available to every single class - both Magicka and Stamina.

Yeah make everything available for both specs. Make dodging cost magicka bcuz everythin must be equal. Make magica fury (oh, it exists already), make stamina haunting curse, make stam whip, make mag dizzy. Stam streak would also be nice, while you are at it, give us stam arctic blast. I mean, just get rid of magicka and stamina attributes whatsoever. Let us all spec into health and run proc sets. Oh wait.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

milllaurie wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Krulzuk wrote: »

They could probably test undoing the Major/Minor Defile nerfs or just tweak the numbers, and they could always look at tweaking the amounts of heal absorption stuff like soldier of anguish proc, traumatic poisons, and time stop.

The only way they should ever consider buffing defile, even by a little bit, is if it's made equally available to every single class - both Magicka and Stamina.

Yeah make everything available for both specs. Make dodging cost magicka bcuz everythin must be equal. Make magica fury (oh, it exists already), make stamina haunting curse, make stam whip, make mag dizzy. Stam streak would also be nice, while you are at it, give us stam arctic blast. I mean, just get rid of magicka and stamina attributes whatsoever. Let us all spec into health and run proc sets. Oh wait.

The old defile was simply too powerful and game changing to be something that isn't available to everyone, and arguments about supposed homogenization being bad don't change that simple fact.

Ocelot9x · February 2021

So basically now the proc fest of NoCp is a little bit more enjoyable? More stat damage+more heals means proc sets are now not so strong, i quite like it

Lughlongarm · February 2021

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Overly strong heals make the game slow paced and boring, and make dots/pressure damage nearly worthless compared to burst. Although the update looks great overall, I think healing is one area that has gotten by the dev testing. Live is already a tank/heal/proc meta (particularly in premade group battlegrounds); which almost always reach the time limit and end with as little as 5 kills per team in a match (when three good teams with healers play against each other).

The new base stats are an awesome addition to the game and should improve nocp PVP particularly except for one oversight: nocp healing got boosted tremendously compared to live. The new base stats give an average nocp character roughly 25-30% more skill damage and healing (assuming heals scale the same as damage), 10% more health, and 10% reduced damage taken. This translates to skills doing about 15-20% more damage than live, and procs doing 10% less damage than live. However healing got 25-30% stronger on the PTS in nocp than on live.

The net effect here is that nocp is going to play more like CP now, and the unkillable tank/heal meta only got worse. Nobody is going to die in BGs with healers unless the battle spirit healing penalty is put back to 60% (which would only be an 11.1% reduction compared to battle spirit at 55%). This alone wouldn't even be enough to prevent extremely slow paced heal/tank gameplay with this update. Many of my friends in this game are healers and even they agree that the game is incredibly boring when nobody dies or it takes several minutes to kill a single person.

Base crit resist should be gone. The only change needed.

Jsmalls · February 2021

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

From the pvp perspective classe like magdk are dead next patch.

How can you using dots, with no execute kill and bad mobility kill another player with crazy heal, crazy mobility, crazy armor and crazy health recovery?

Why should you ? if i invest in "crazy" armor and health recovery is should be able to survive at least 1v1 regardless of your class and damage. Proc sets is the problem not health recovery , armor , ect.

@Massacre_Wurm

In that same sense, if I invest in "crazy" damage then I should be able to kill in a 1v1 to counteract that tankiness.

I strongly dislike the PvP "tank" meta, just use your active defenses, die if you don't counter well, and respawn. Its not that serious.

the1andonlyskwex · February 2021

I welcome a buff to noCP PvP healing. On live, healing is way too weak (at least in solo BGs). Part of the current tank meta is the fact that heals aren't strong enough to be useful on anyone who doesn't have huge mitigation.

That said, there is a fine line between healing being too weak and healing being too strong.

Luede · February 2021

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I welcome a buff to noCP PvP healing. On live, healing is way too weak (at least in solo BGs). Part of the current tank meta is the fact that heals aren't strong enough to be useful on anyone who doesn't have huge mitigation.

That said, there is a fine line between healing being too weak and healing being too strong.

dont know what game u play, but atm noncp healing is to strong.

Massacre_Wurm · February 2021

Luede wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I welcome a buff to noCP PvP healing. On live, healing is way too weak (at least in solo BGs). Part of the current tank meta is the fact that heals aren't strong enough to be useful on anyone who doesn't have huge mitigation.

That said, there is a fine line between healing being too weak and healing being too strong.

dont know what game u play, but atm noncp healing is to strong.

Dont know what game you play but in no cp healing is too weak. You can be bursted almost instantly in full tank+healing setup.