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ETA on when healing is reverted in cyrodiil?

  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    Sandman929 wrote: »
    Sandman929 wrote: »
    What does this even mean? How are supports eliminated from cyro?.

    Did I write Cyro or very specifically
    AvAvA gameplay
    ?

    A = Alliance
    Alliance =/= a group of 12-24 people
    Idk if you were around before One Tamriel but the whole game used to be designed around the fight between the different factions -a concept which culminated in Cyro PvP and its epic, LotR style siege battles.

    The point of AvAvA was NOT for people to divide in groups of 12 (or less) and then battle each other. That's what Battlegrounds is for. In AvAvA everyone with your color is your ally (which is why the ability texts say "allied players" and not "players in your group"... smart, right?) and only if everyone in the faction worked together, the map can be played effectively (that's why it's so big and empty nowadays)

    Healers unable to heal/buff all members of their faction are excluded from this aspect of Cyro gameplay.

    Imagine a crucial keep under siege. You're on your way there, together with other people who saw the call in zone. There's an ambush: Enemy players want to cut off the reinforcements.
    If you only see your group as your allies, you'll keep riding. If you see all members of your alliance as your allies, you'll want to do something to get rid of the highwaymen.

    If you're a dps or tank you won't have to think twice about throwing yourself into the fight. What, however, can you do as a healer? Make sure the other players don't die, right?

    Well, you can't. :) Unless you quickly exit your group and get the 3 randos currently present to form a new one, your heals and buffs do *** all. Better just keep riding.

    Or, different scenario, a siege is set up, two 12 ppl groups are present. A bomber comes in, takes out most of your group mates. You used to be able to buff the other players, too. Now you just gotta sit tight, with all your quipped healing/buffs and full ult useless, until your group comes back.

    Maybe if one only plays smallscale PvP with coordinated groups situations like this just... don't happen, idk. But this was the kind of gameplay I sought out and enjoyed most as a support player. As a tank I can still help all people in my alliance, if and when they need it. As a healer I can not.
    That only works if you have 11 friends or less.

    The number of friends must be >= 1 && <= 11. Also, your schedule has to line up with them, they must be reasonably experienced but not so experienced that they don't need a healer anyway...

    It's wild how the supporters of this change seem to think there is one way to play this game -their way- and every differing playstyle is an oddity that deserves to be axed.

    Telling people to "just group up" is so easy as someone who
    a) plays solo (as in self-sufficiently) anyway and doesn't know what tf they're talking about
    b) mostly plays with rl friends and never actually has to look for a group
    c) has a guild and the free-time/lack of other commitments needed to stay in it
    d) interprets the support role in an AvAvA environment (we're talking Cyro, NOT BG) as a monogamous relationship between themselves and exactly 11 other, pre-determined players

    Note that in my comment I said
    barred from Cyro PvP unless they accept drastic QoL loss/gameplay restrictions
    because that's what this is unless you fit into the above categories -in which case: congrats.

    If I started playing this game yesterday and didn't know better I wouldn't care (because I would have logged into PvP, seen how it works and logged straight back out) but I've been playing ESO p much since launch. I know the options/freedom I had before this change. Even with MYM causing high pop and lots of PuG opportunities to go around, the loss of spontaneity is a deal-breaker.

    You don’t need to explain terms to me, I understand :smile:

    I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes. The majority of regular cyrodiil players are members of guilds... if, hypothetically, they had to choose between saving me or saving someone on their guild, I would be dead. And I’m fine with that :lol:

    Also this same excuse is brought up time and time again. That you need time and dedication to be in a guild. You really do not. Most of the casual pvp guilds with 300+ players only require you to log in once a month... And if for some reason you just don’t wanna join a guild, they run pug groups every single day which any player can join. They won’t kick you out of the group for being: low level, bad, inexperienced etc etc.

    Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo. It always has been. If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not. The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play. As a support player you NEED other players to support. People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group.

    Where do you get your facts? I play in a guild sometimes and other times solo. I play solo on all different kinds of character including support tanks and healers. I haven't conducted any polling of my own, but I have no idea what the majority of players do.

    I said “seem to” if I’m wrong then fair enough. But most regular cyrodiil players ARE in pvp guilds... they just are :lol: and u did not play solo. Just because you are ungrouped does not mean you are playing solo. A solo player is someone who goes to take resources on their own, tries to fight people on their own, as examples. It is impossible to do this as a “support tank and healer”. You literally NEED other players to support... I don’t get what people don’t understand about the term ‘solo’. If you are ungrouped and Zerg surfing and playing alongside other people you are not playing solo. And there is nothing wrong with that :lol: just don’t call it solo when it’s not.

    You clearly have a lot of your own definitions that you enjoy applying to everyone, but I guess by that definition, an ungrouped person oscillates between playing solo, and then not playing solo when someone else comes around.
    I also take resources all the time on support toons...so I do the impossible.

    But if you’re “oscillating between playing solo and not” who are u supporting? So you’re not a support in that time lol. This whole thing was about supports needing other people to actually support which is 100% true. Idk what you’re trying to argue 😂 if u wanna go support a resource go ahead.
  • NotTaylorSwift
    NotTaylorSwift
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    Hopefully, that explains some of our "strange reasons" for not wanting to be forced to group and then limited to only healing the 11 other players in our group. As well as, I hope you now understand, the dramatic impact that the healing changes had for ALL healers, not just the ones who preferred to play ungrouped.

    I am also a healer, I played healer in a zerg guild a few years ago and now I play healer in a small group. So it hasnt dramatically affected "all healers". I also know quite a few other healers who would have the same opinion as me. Its not that I don't understand everything you're saying, its just that I simply don't agree.

    imo these heal changes were a good thing and should definitely not be reverted for good.
  • superbiquette
    superbiquette
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    We get there , that true in a pvp area you don't play alone you have to deal with other players allies or ennemies ( grouped or ungrouped, seems have to precise ), and in reading other post it's more like you want a bg zone for 12v12v12 or same with 24 but not a pvp area because you ask that people from your alliance don't interfer with your group. That's what i understand sorry if it wasn't Nottaylor.
    That's first fact in second is a problem with the gameplay of healers , by considering it only a class of support , accepting of putting support spells for a group is just one way of playing ... a class. Healing spells are just a part of some classes , it have no reason to be restricted in a pvp area where people have to interact.
  • GreneBene
    GreneBene
    ✭✭
    Sandman929 wrote: »
    What does this even mean? How are supports eliminated from cyro?.

    Did I write Cyro or very specifically
    AvAvA gameplay
    ?

    A = Alliance
    Alliance =/= a group of 12-24 people
    Idk if you were around before One Tamriel but the whole game used to be designed around the fight between the different factions -a concept which culminated in Cyro PvP and its epic, LotR style siege battles.

    The point of AvAvA was NOT for people to divide in groups of 12 (or less) and then battle each other. That's what Battlegrounds is for. In AvAvA everyone with your color is your ally (which is why the ability texts say "allied players" and not "players in your group"... smart, right?) and only if everyone in the faction worked together, the map can be played effectively (that's why it's so big and empty nowadays)

    Healers unable to heal/buff all members of their faction are excluded from this aspect of Cyro gameplay.

    Imagine a crucial keep under siege. You're on your way there, together with other people who saw the call in zone. There's an ambush: Enemy players want to cut off the reinforcements.
    If you only see your group as your allies, you'll keep riding. If you see all members of your alliance as your allies, you'll want to do something to get rid of the highwaymen.

    If you're a dps or tank you won't have to think twice about throwing yourself into the fight. What, however, can you do as a healer? Make sure the other players don't die, right?

    Well, you can't. :) Unless you quickly exit your group and get the 3 randos currently present to form a new one, your heals and buffs do *** all. Better just keep riding.

    Or, different scenario, a siege is set up, two 12 ppl groups are present. A bomber comes in, takes out most of your group mates. You used to be able to buff the other players, too. Now you just gotta sit tight, with all your quipped healing/buffs and full ult useless, until your group comes back.

    Maybe if one only plays smallscale PvP with coordinated groups situations like this just... don't happen, idk. But this was the kind of gameplay I sought out and enjoyed most as a support player. As a tank I can still help all people in my alliance, if and when they need it. As a healer I can not.
    That only works if you have 11 friends or less.

    The number of friends must be >= 1 && <= 11. Also, your schedule has to line up with them, they must be reasonably experienced but not so experienced that they don't need a healer anyway...

    It's wild how the supporters of this change seem to think there is one way to play this game -their way- and every differing playstyle is an oddity that deserves to be axed.

    Telling people to "just group up" is so easy as someone who
    a) plays solo (as in self-sufficiently) anyway and doesn't know what tf they're talking about
    b) mostly plays with rl friends and never actually has to look for a group
    c) has a guild and the free-time/lack of other commitments needed to stay in it
    d) interprets the support role in an AvAvA environment (we're talking Cyro, NOT BG) as a monogamous relationship between themselves and exactly 11 other, pre-determined players

    Note that in my comment I said
    barred from Cyro PvP unless they accept drastic QoL loss/gameplay restrictions
    because that's what this is unless you fit into the above categories -in which case: congrats.

    If I started playing this game yesterday and didn't know better I wouldn't care (because I would have logged into PvP, seen how it works and logged straight back out) but I've been playing ESO p much since launch. I know the options/freedom I had before this change. Even with MYM causing high pop and lots of PuG opportunities to go around, the loss of spontaneity is a deal-breaker.

    You don’t need to explain terms to me, I understand :smile:

    I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes. The majority of regular cyrodiil players are members of guilds... if, hypothetically, they had to choose between saving me or saving someone on their guild, I would be dead. And I’m fine with that :lol:

    Also this same excuse is brought up time and time again. That you need time and dedication to be in a guild. You really do not. Most of the casual pvp guilds with 300+ players only require you to log in once a month... And if for some reason you just don’t wanna join a guild, they run pug groups every single day which any player can join. They won’t kick you out of the group for being: low level, bad, inexperienced etc etc.

    Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo. It always has been. If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not. The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play. As a support player you NEED other players to support. People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group.

    Where do you get your facts? I play in a guild sometimes and other times solo. I play solo on all different kinds of character including support tanks and healers. I haven't conducted any polling of my own, but I have no idea what the majority of players do.

    I said “seem to” if I’m wrong then fair enough. But most regular cyrodiil players ARE in pvp guilds... they just are :lol: and u did not play solo. Just because you are ungrouped does not mean you are playing solo. A solo player is someone who goes to take resources on their own, tries to fight people on their own, as examples. It is impossible to do this as a “support tank and healer”. You literally NEED other players to support... I don’t get what people don’t understand about the term ‘solo’. If you are ungrouped and Zerg surfing and playing alongside other people you are not playing solo. And there is nothing wrong with that :lol: just don’t call it solo when it’s not.

    Its times like this when I sigh, because we've had so many threads over this topic where someone shows up with the "gotcha!" of "But "solo healers" aren't really solo."

    Like we explain every time it comes up: No. We aren't alone. We just weren't grouped. Before the change, no one had to group up to heal or be healed by their alliance members.

    With as many times as this has come up in other threads on the same topic and been answered, it feels disingenuous to see "but you aren't really solo" still being brought up. But perhaps I'm too quick to judge, and this is your first time participating in one of these threads?


    In which case, let's do a little review of the topic.

    You say:
    "Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo."
    Congratulations! Now you understand the problem that formerly ungrouped healers had with the healing changes! If you don't group up, its impossible to heal anyone!

    You say:
    "If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not."
    Yes. Is this a problem? Every other build in Cyrodiil could still zergsurf...except healers.

    "The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play."
    No. Just no. That's very incorrect, as a moment's thought should suffice to make clear. If your gameplay doesn't change when you group up, why did you group up? (Or as my PVP raid lead would say, "If you aren't on Crown, why are you in group?")
    Its especially incorrect for healers, but I'll get to that in the next bit.

    "As a support player you NEED other players to support."
    Yes. Its just that prior to the change, we weren't force to group up with them. Huge change to healer play.
    Oh! And we could support everyone on our faction too, not just 11 other people! That was a huge change to ALL healers' gameplay!
    This meant we used to be able to choose who to support, instead of tying ourselves to a specific 12-man group who might be charging the breach (good!) Or might be skirmishing in the field while our faction is losing the siege (bad!).

    "People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group."
    Look, after the many threads on the topic it feels like you've preemptively dismissed our reasons as "strange", but maybe this is your first one. So here goes my list of examples of why healers might prefer to not be forced into groups to heal only their 11 group members:
    (The "we" and "they" used is general, and examples taken from my experience and from the various threads on this subject. Others may have more to add.)
    1. We're not very good - Did you know that new players were often advised to grab a resto staff and zergsurf to get their AP for Vigor/Caltrops/WarHorn/Barrier? Yeah, that doesn't happen now and yes, between that and the smaller group size, new players have less chances to get into good PUG raids so they can learn.
    2. We've got social anxiety
    3. We have limited playtime. Or their normal group isn't on at that hour. Lots of times, when my PVP guild isn't on, I would jump in for a quick battle and jump back out as time allowed.
    4. They want to jump into healing the big fights instead of waiting for an LFG group to pick them up. I liked to answer calls for help in zone chat, now I'd have to LFG up to do anything.
    5. We don't want to deal with toxic groupmates
    6. We don't want to deal with slow groupmates who make us miss fights.
    7. We don't want to deal with incompetent groupmates who scatter, or don't bring siege, or are off doing their own thing
    8. We don't want to deal with a toxic, incompetent, slow, or scatter-brained Crown.
    9.We DO want the freedom to heal whoever needs it instead of focusing purely on 12 players in our group.
    10. We DO want to heal every player around us.
    11. We DO want to heal that ungrouped guy next to us repairing the same wall, because if he get ambushed with Vicious Death, we'll take damage if he dies.
    12.. We DO want to heal everyone on a ram even if they aren't in our group, because otherwise we might lose the fight.
    13. We DO want to heal the random ungrouped guy we see get ganked.
    14. We DO want to heal the other groups of PUGs tangling with the ball group farmers, because when they go down, we're next on the menu.
    15. We DO want to heal the other ungrouped players tangling with a pair of tower farmers, because when they go down, we're next on the menu.
    16. We DO want to pick which fights are most important to us. If my factions PUGs are taking Aleswell and a home keep flags, I want to have the freedom to go help defenders save the home keep
    17. We DO want to support our whole faction, not one measly 12-player group.


    After all, this is what we're playing. "I can only support my 12-player group" just doesn't compare to the support we used to provide to everyone on our faction.
    elder_scrolls_online_pvp_low-level-590x334.png

    Hopefully, that explains some of our "strange reasons" for not wanting to be forced to group and then limited to only healing the 11 other players in our group. As well as, I hope you now understand, the dramatic impact that the healing changes had for ALL healers, not just the ones who preferred to play ungrouped.

    Thank you, this is pretty much my thoughts as a healer main who can't heal anymore. I have a PvP guild but a lot of times I can join raids. OTR other factors. Being able to heal pugs was something I looked forward to.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).

    Thank you for clarifying! That's been a big point of confusion and its great to know for sure that the healing changes are reverted outside of the tests!
  • FantasticFreddie
    FantasticFreddie
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    Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).

    O hooray, this makes me so happy. I hope you keep it for good
  • JkahrrRadnar
    JkahrrRadnar
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    The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play.

    I have given two concrete examples of how it changes my playing experience. I have also specified what I mean with "solo" play
    plays solo (as in self-sufficiently)
    and, since this does not apply to a healer, have not referred to myself as such.

    At this point I'll assume you're being deliberately obtuse regarding this issue, so it's not worth furthering the chain of arguments.

    To pick up the other part of your post though:
    I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes.

    Well, if this were the case I'd have expected
    a) a decrease of zerg/rando-related complaints in the zone chat
    b) less actual zergs/randos in-game

    ...and perhaps a target audience shift for ESO as a whole. ESO, the MMO which markets itself as being essentially single player suddenly having an influx of players who WANT to group? Wowowow this year is full of surprises

    But alright, maybe I'm a dinosaur bemoaning the good old times. (February 2020?)

    So how is the PvP playerbase faring? Has it grown over the last 3 years? Has it grown since the healing/group change was made? If the patch was such a marked gameplay improvement for the masses AND yielded the desired performance increase, surely there are more people playing than ever! :love:

    Unlike you, who appears to have conducted thorough, scientific surveys, I can only judge outward appearances:

    - under 50 has been dead for at least 2 years
    - pop caps are significantly lower than they were at launch, yet the number of campaign instances has remained roughly the same
    - pop locks are only reached during events and primetime and not consistently on all campaigns
    - queue time for a pop locked Ravenwatch EU during non-event primetime is minimal
    - there is no active/recently made thread on the english forums requesting higher pop/new instances, just a whole lot of complaining about performance and balance
    - the german Cyro PvP forums have seen only 15 new threads since 2019

    That is to say: The outward appearance of ESO PvP (EU) is that it's either heavily stagnating or actively dying.

    Strange. It's almost as if the healing/group change had no real impact on the miserable state of PvP in ESO, at least not in a way that would have lead to a noticeable uptick in player engagement

    Here's another thought:

    - Cyro PvP has an incredibly steep learning curve no matter what you do
    - pressure on the individual player grows with reduced group size because no small group can afford to carry more than one incompetent fool
    - inexperienced & casual players will instinctively gravitate to larger/loosely coupled groups because it provides safety but doesn't require them to out themselves as incompetent fools
    - solo or small-scale PvP in organized groups is a playstyle generally favoured by experienced/long-time players

    Sounds logical? Okay.

    Now the point: If "the majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now" it could be

    a natural shift in preferences
    OR
    a symptom of a decaying player base in which the scrub-to-hardcore ratio is starting to tip towards the latter

    From a gameplay standpoint, you can see the endstage of such a development in under 50. From a financial standpoint, it shouldn't need explaining that a subscription model depends on appealing to a wide audience, attracting them as players and getting them to stick around long enough to become paying customers.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Edited by JkahrrRadnar on February 5, 2021 11:03PM
  • JkahrrRadnar
    JkahrrRadnar
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    Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).

    Awesome, thank you! :D
  • Orpheaus
    Orpheaus
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    Welp it was fun while it lasted. Now all the casual zerg surfers who are too incompetent to press "LFG" can go back to spamming radiating regen to leech points. Carry on.
  • Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
    Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO
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    Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).

    @ZOS_GinaBruno Thanks for the clarification :) looking forward to see the list of sets which aren't affected.

    Any chance this will go up on PTS so that we can confirm it works before it is pushed live?
    @Solar_Breeze
    NA ~ Izanerys: Dracarys (Videos | Dracast Podcast)
    EU ~ Izanagi: Roleplay Circle (AOE Rats/ Zerg Squad / Banana Squad)
  • Stensaxpannk
    Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).

    Thanks for answer gina :blush:
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