Overland boring content - proposal so everyone is happy

xericdx · January 2021

Hello,

Returning old player, I have been out of ESO for a few reasons, one being that most of the content is just boringly easy, making NPC claims of these grave threats looking a bit ridiculous.

I will try to be short, hoping that you breathtaking people will read the post before commenting

Now, I am not in favor of

- Increasing overall difficulty (goes against new players)
- Creating separate zones (too complicate to implement for ZOS + divide players)
- Saying that you can just play "naked" to add extra challenge. Unless for very niche RP purposes, it is just not appalling to auto-limit oneself for no reason/reward
- Tie a new system to big rewards that makes it a "must"

So, I would propose :
- Introduce a set of craftable armor that will increase damage taken + reduce damage output, in exchange for some small rewards (eg: xp buff from kills, like the Training trait)
- It could be : 2 pieces : increase damage taken by 30%; 3pcs: decrease damage output by 15%; 4pcs: increase XP from kills by 15%; 5pcs: no idea. %s changing with mat quality so can be adapted to personal tastes
- Some fluff could be added justifying that it's a "sacrifice to X divinity" , etc.

What do you think? Alternatives could be a memento like during festivals introducing similar buffs/debuffs. Number are just thrown there, not sure what good %s could be. The idea would be to increase damage received more than decreasing dmg output ('cause, dmg sponges are not fun) and have a reward that does not make it a "must" but compensate for the extra time. With the new 3.600 caps, it could also be helpful in leveling up XP, something that has not been an issue for a couple of years but will be soon (see Update 29 discussions)....

This is not supposed to be perfect, just a compromise to improve the situation. A real and fun challenge would be with different/additional mechanics, not increase/decrease dmg. But ZOS will not re-invite all the overland for this, they are creating dungeons/trials for that.

Seems like a good compromise, no "must have rewards", some fluff to justify it, easy to implement for ZOS, do not go against any player : new/old/else.

----EDITS below to include some recommendations/discussions below

Other similar ideas with (my) commentaries. The main "con" of the armor set idea is that it reduces fun builds variety by "using" one set slot. As for the others
- System in the new CP trees; cons: one you might have to respect every time you enter group/difficult content (also in respect of other players, maybe these debuff should not be allowed in Dungeons?)
- With food Probably the best idea. You get the same concept without renouncing to build variety
- Simil-Tel Var sytem. sounds good indeed. But again, I really doubt that ZOS will dedicate much energy to a new system. A simpler one might have a bigger change but, in the end, it's ZOS deciding...The point is just to pass the message that we would like a solution.
- Mementos, main "con" is that you cannot scale it to various difficulties.

As for other ideas that will target the land and enemies, I see your point but I maintain my skepticism:
Looking at the history of the game and the direction it took, from making contents easier since after the Beta/beginning, to One Tamriel, and so on... I doubt that major reforms affecting all players and/or instancing difficulty modes will ever happen. Looking at some players' comments in other posts, maybe even for the better.

The only good fix I agree would be to make basic enemies mechanics more entertaining (not just thougher and more dmg) but again, that is linked to overall difficulty and ZOS resources on basic parts of the game. So, not much hope on that either.

I understand that some might feel that mine and others similar proposals are half cooked. But I think that we are shooting ourselves in the foot, signaling to ZOS that any small incremental change will be met with skepticism and with the "either change the game fully in the direction I like of **** off" attitude. Maybe I am wrong at being to pessimistic on major changes happening in the overland system but well, that remains my opinion.

Auberon1983 · January 2021

While not exactly ideal, that's definitely a realistic solution. Personally I'd love for a "hard/veteran" mode overland/quests, but for starters that wouldn't be as simple to introduce as it sounds, and I'd rather certain instabilities and issues be fixed before a major difficulty overhaul.

While your proposal wouldn't be my first choice, all the mechanics to introduce it are already there.

kargen27 · January 2021

I've advocated for food and drink that reduces instead of increases certain stats. Could be as diverse as the consumables we have now. Green would reduce slightly while a gold food or drink would really hinder whatever stats it targets.

Luke_Flamesword · January 2021

I have even better idea - with new CP system we can have slottable CP passive with same "bonuses". It's better beacuse with this you can still use your favourite gear and this is major part of fun. This passive can cost just 1 point to not drain us useful points and you can just slot or unslot it whenever you want. Or it have even a scale - for example 5 stages, each one for 1 point. With every stage you have stronger debuffs but also more XP.

There is just only one problem and this is probably kill the idea. Players always abuse what they can abuse, so they will group with no debuffed players to farm XP

But wait, maybe they can implement block being in group with players withou debuff and decrease shared XP (you get less XP if you killed enemy with non-debuffed player)

Faulgor · January 2021

There are so many ways a debuff like this could be applied, and there's no shortage of good suggestions that have been posted. Specific sets are an interesting approach, however part of the issue of low overland difficulty is that improving your gear and build is not really encouraged, and I don't think tying this new mode to specific gear can solve that.

XP is also not really a worthwhile reward, as most players that look for more of a challenge are effectively maxed out in that regard.

Personally I'm partial to transplanting the Tel Var system with a new currency into overland, with the difficulty increasing the more of said currency you carry - of course, with the additional risk of losing it upon death. The currency could then be traded in at specific merchants like Tel Vars, mostly for cosmetic fluff, crafting satchels, etc. Add in a few achievements with dyes and titles and I think most people would be content.

CP5 · January 2021

Overland content isn't boring because of the lack of 'challenge'. You can gimp yourself all you like, but at the end of the day the enemies you face can barely tie their own shoes, let alone fight back against a halfway decent player. See that guy with only a sword? He's going to walk up to you, wack you with the pommel of his sword, then back step for the rest of the fight while you kill his friends only to maybe throw a knife before his face ends up planted in the dirt.

New players learn nothing from these fights and experienced players have no interest in wasting their times with something so trivial. That is the core issue as it leaves new players no way to learn how to play since it ins't providing chances to learn and makes slogging through quest painful for people who just end up melting these worthless mobs at a single glance.

WiseSky · January 2021

So, I would propose :

Remove all CP
Remove all Attribute
Use EQ level 1
Only use 5 Skill points
Use an Useless Mundus Stone
Unbind Block
Unbind Roll Dodge
Unbind Bash
Remove all Glow and Telegraph of Mobs Attacks

lelink88 · January 2021

I think what you guy need is harder and more interesting bosses for solo content. And better reward for solo content. It might be mount, skin, unique outfit. Anything that worth your time and effort. No1 complain if you can kill 10 mob soo easy, but they will complain if the boss is soo "duh".

wolfie1.0. · January 2021

xericdx wrote: »

Hello,

Returning old player, I have been out of ESO for a few reasons, one being that most of the content is just boringly easy, making NPC claims of these grave threats looking a bit ridiculous.

I will try to be short, hoping that you breathtaking people will read the post before commenting

Now, I am not in favor of
- Increasing overall difficulty (goes against new players)
- Creating separate zones (too complicate to implement for ZOS + divide players)
- Saying that you can just play "naked" to add extra challenge. Unless for very niche RP purposes, it is just not appalling to auto-limit oneself for no reason/reward
- Tie a new system to big rewards that makes it a "must"

So, I would propose :
- Introduce a set of craftable armor that will increase damage taken + reduce damage output, in exchange for some small rewards (eg: xp buff from kills, like the Training trait)
- It could be : 2 pieces : increase damage taken by 30%; 3pcs: decrease damage output by 15%; 4pcs: increase XP from kills by 15%; 5pcs: no idea. %s changing with mat quality so can be adapted to personal tastes
- Some fluff could be added justifying that it's a "sacrifice to X divinity" , etc.

What do you think? Alternatives could be a memento like during festivals introducing similar buffs/debuffs. Number are just thrown there, not sure what good %s could be. The idea would be to increase damage received more than decreasing dmg output ('cause, dmg sponges are not fun) and have a reward that does not make it a "must" but compensate for the extra time. With the new 3.600 caps, it could also be helpful in the grinding....

This is not supposed to be perfect, just a compromise to improve the situation. A real and fun challenge would be with different/additional mechanics, not increase/decrease dmg. But ZOS will not re-invite all the overland for this, they are creating dungeons/trials for that.

Seems like a good compromise, no "must have rewards", some fluff to justify it, easy to implement for ZOS, do not go against any player : new/old/else.

(edits because I am stupid and misclicked, posting before it was finished).

Cant you already do this just by making you r gear level 1 with no set pieces and not investing in cp? And not applying attribute points until later? I mean it sounds like you want ZOS to do the work for you for harder content, but you can do that yourself by just making sub par build choices. There doesnt seem to be a value added proposition here.

wolfie1.0. · January 2021

CP5 wrote: »

Overland content isn't boring because of the lack of 'challenge'. You can gimp yourself all you like, but at the end of the day the enemies you face can barely tie their own shoes, let alone fight back against a halfway decent player. See that guy with only a sword? He's going to walk up to you, wack you with the pommel of his sword, then back step for the rest of the fight while you kill his friends only to maybe throw a knife before his face ends up planted in the dirt.

New players learn nothing from these fights and experienced players have no interest in wasting their times with something so trivial. That is the core issue as it leaves new players no way to learn how to play since it ins't providing chances to learn and makes slogging through quest painful for people who just end up melting these worthless mobs at a single glance.

I would say your post is more helpful than the OPs. The difference between a normal and vet dungeon is a joke. Imo there should be 5 difficulty levels for every dungeon, normal, progression, vet, vet hardmode, and impossible.

Normal = same as is now
Progression = harder than normal but not vet, vet mechanics are required to be done to down bosses and clear dungeon (ie teaches mechanics) final boss is same as standard veteran
Veteran = same as now except final boss is same as current veteran hardmode.
Veteran hardmode= all bosses are set to very high difficulty and trash mobs are harder to kill.
Impossible mode: everything is hard to kill, a group wipe resets the entire dungeon, you must kill every mob to progress to each boss. The dungeon is timed as well, when timer reaches 0 if you have not cleared the dungeon you are teleported to final boss along with every living boss/mob.

xericdx · January 2021

@kargen27 ; @Faulgor ; @Luke_Flamesword
...Yes indeed, some of your ideas are possibly even better.
- With the CP one you might have to respect every time you enter group/difficult content (also in respect of other players, maybe these debuff should not be allowed in Dungeons?
- With food it's probably the best. You get the same idea without renouncing to build variety (keeps 5 slots armor)
- Simil-Tel Var sounds good indeed. But again, I really doubt that ZOS will dedicate much energy to a new system. A simpler one might have a bigger change but, in the end, it's ZOS deciding...The point is just to pass the message that we would like a solution.

@CP5 : of course, I fully agree. Simply, as I said, I doubt that ZOS will invest time/energy to re-invent (or improve for future content) all overland combat mechanics. Hence, just trying to make the situation slightly less sad, with the least resource needed.

@wtlonewolf20 : Sure to disagree but I am not sure you actually read to the post. I specifically mentioned the "going naked option" and I am suggesting a reward-based system. As for the dungeon system, I think it has the same complexity problems, as it was discussed in other posts (resources needed by ZOS to implement, ground finding, etc.).

Iccotak · January 2021

CP5 wrote: »

Overland content isn't boring because of the lack of 'challenge'. You can gimp yourself all you like, but at the end of the day the enemies you face can barely tie their own shoes, let alone fight back against a halfway decent player. See that guy with only a sword? He's going to walk up to you, wack you with the pommel of his sword, then back step for the rest of the fight while you kill his friends only to maybe throw a knife before his face ends up planted in the dirt.

New players learn nothing from these fights and experienced players have no interest in wasting their times with something so trivial. That is the core issue as it leaves new players no way to learn how to play since it ins't providing chances to learn and makes slogging through quest painful for people who just end up melting these worthless mobs at a single glance.

THIS

too many enemies are basically "Bandit" level who are incapable AND only fight you in groups of three unless you accidently or deliberately draw more in. They basically are all equally hard. The gameplay is not engaging.

That's why in Skyrim
- 1) has a hierarchy of bad guys like Bandit, Highwayman, Plunderer, and Chief - each rank with more health and doing more damage than the last.
- 2) Enemies can see farther
- 3) Enemies of higher level or Rank can do more

Before we even discuss the idea of "veteran difficulty" or self imposed limits we need to address the elephant in the room which is that enemies in overland are just in general mechanically too weak and are only a threat when they get into groups of 4-6 or more.
Sure people have died to three scamps but I don't think the game has to cater to the lowest common denominator - dying or almost dying more often (not all the time - just more often) should be an indicator to get better at the game. It should encourage players to get better, because right now it kind of babies them too much.

If we really wanted to appeal to the lowest common denominator then all zones would be made as hard as Bleakrock and I don't think anyone really wants that.

@xericdx the problem with the set idea is that it is still choosing to limit yourself - that's not appealing, even with the reward, nor does it solve the problem. What makes a difficulty setting appealing isn't "You're weaker" the appeal is "They're way tougher"

Really ZOS should be looking at some of their design choices in dungeons and apply it more often in overland because the things I listed out about Skyrim are exactly what they often do with the mobs in Public and Group dungeons. So we know that ZOS can do it

xericdx · January 2021

@Iccotak As mentioned in the post above, I fully agree.

Problem is, I have seen many posts in the 6(?) years of ESO and it seems clear to me that ZOS does not want to increase difficulty complicate matters in main quests/overland, a) probably because it requires more resources to think about new mechanics for all contents, b) because they want/need to attract new players (for the oldies, there are the VDungeons, Trials, etc.) and thus simply do not want to make the content harder than it is now.

Would I personally like a completely different and more challenging overland experience? Yes. Is the gear/food/else idea not addressing the elephant in the room? Definitely. Alas, I'd rather take a small improvement than nothing. I am not even saying that it should be "difficult", just that I am not completely asleep and detached would be enough

Iccotak · January 2021

xericdx wrote: »

@Iccotak As mentioned in the post above, I fully agree.

Problem is, I have seen many posts in the 6(?) years of ESO and it seems clear to me that ZOS does not want to increase difficulty complicate matters in main quests/overland, a) probably because it requires more resources to think about new mechanics for all contents, b) because they want/need to attract new players (for the oldies, there are the VDungeons, Trials, etc.) and thus simply do not want to make the content harder than it is now.

Would I personally like a completely different and more challenging overland experience? Yes. Is the gear/food/else idea not addressing the elephant in the room? Definitely. Alas, I'd rather take a small improvement than nothing. I am not even saying that it should be "difficult", just that I am not completely asleep and detached would be enough

the problem though is that those kinds of solutions are band-aids at best but really only highlight the issue even more.

EDIT: I'd rather have an actual solution and not a Half-A** one

my problem is that ZOS seems to be pushing zones to be closer to Bleakrock levels of easy and that makes the game lose appeal FAST.

olsborg · January 2021

What would be cool...is if they made it possible to play overland and delve content on some sort of hardmode, like really hard. And the rewards would be much higher in said zone, like quest and delve rewards with gold tempers/dreugh wax and high-end resources etc. Id play that.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · January 2021

For those who weren't here at launch, I should perhaps explain exactly how overland was made so laughably easy. It's not just a matter of the "normal" player-dealt DPS increasing five-fold or more since launch, and it's not just the fact that they made the mobs have less HP and hit less hard. The nerf goes much deeper than that, and no simple debuffs or voluntary crippling of your build can fix it properly.

The problem is that they both dumbed down and slowed down the AI for all PvE enemies. Regular trash mobs used to employ jumps and dodges, they blocked your blows, they snared you, and they used combinations of abilities which you needed to counter properly to defeat them reliably. Combat with even a single trash mob could be engaging. Two was busy, three was a challenge. Telegraphs were shorter and easier to miss. This game used to be quite hard for a solo player. I am not saying it was better, because people rage quit over, say, not being able to progress in the main quest or kill the wretched Doshia in the Fighters' Guild quest. The changes they made to the game have very obviously made it survive.

In my personal opinion, I'm sad to see this challenge gone, but there is nothing that could bring back that for individual players without changing the experience for everyone else, except splitting the world into different instances depending on some "difficulty" toggle.

ke.sardenb14_ESO · January 2021

WiseSky wrote: »

So, I would propose :

Remove all CP
Remove all Attribute
Use EQ level 1
Only use 5 Skill points
Use an Useless Mundus Stone
Unbind Block
Unbind Roll Dodge
Unbind Bash
Remove all Glow and Telegraph of Mobs Attacks

[snip] no one should have to gimp themselves to get some kinda of challenge. It is a slap in the face to not be considered after spending the time to learn the game and farm gear

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

ke.sardenb14_ESO · January 2021

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

For those who weren't here at launch, I should perhaps explain exactly how overland was made so laughably easy. It's not just a matter of the "normal" player-dealt DPS increasing five-fold or more since launch, and it's not just the fact that they made the mobs have less HP and hit less hard. The nerf goes much deeper than that, and no simple debuffs or voluntary crippling of your build can fix it properly.

The problem is that they both dumbed down and slowed down the AI for all PvE enemies. Regular trash mobs used to employ jumps and dodges, they blocked your blows, they snared you, and they used combinations of abilities which you needed to counter properly to defeat them reliably. Combat with even a single trash mob could be engaging. Two was busy, three was a challenge. Telegraphs were shorter and easier to miss. This game used to be quite hard for a solo player. I am not saying it was better, because people rage quit over, say, not being able to progress in the main quest or kill the wretched Doshia in the Fighters' Guild quest. The changes they made to the game have very obviously made it survive.

In my personal opinion, I'm sad to see this challenge gone, but there is nothing that could bring back that for individual players without changing the experience for everyone else, except splitting the world into different instances depending on some "difficulty" toggle.

Now that you mention it I remember this, and I really loved it. I took a break from ESO pre one tamriel, and when I came back I thought why is this so easy and slow.

Iccotak · January 2021

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

For those who weren't here at launch, I should perhaps explain exactly how overland was made so laughably easy. It's not just a matter of the "normal" player-dealt DPS increasing five-fold or more since launch, and it's not just the fact that they made the mobs have less HP and hit less hard. The nerf goes much deeper than that, and no simple debuffs or voluntary crippling of your build can fix it properly.

The problem is that they both dumbed down and slowed down the AI for all PvE enemies. Regular trash mobs used to employ jumps and dodges, they blocked your blows, they snared you, and they used combinations of abilities which you needed to counter properly to defeat them reliably. Combat with even a single trash mob could be engaging. Two was busy, three was a challenge. Telegraphs were shorter and easier to miss. This game used to be quite hard for a solo player. I am not saying it was better, because people rage quit over, say, not being able to progress in the main quest or kill the wretched Doshia in the Fighters' Guild quest. The changes they made to the game have very obviously made it survive.

In my personal opinion, I'm sad to see this challenge gone, but there is nothing that could bring back that for individual players without changing the experience for everyone else, except splitting the world into different instances depending on some "difficulty" toggle.

EXACTLY

kargen27 · February 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

There are so many ways a debuff like this could be applied, and there's no shortage of good suggestions that have been posted. Specific sets are an interesting approach, however part of the issue of low overland difficulty is that improving your gear and build is not really encouraged, and I don't think tying this new mode to specific gear can solve that.

XP is also not really a worthwhile reward, as most players that look for more of a challenge are effectively maxed out in that regard.

Personally I'm partial to transplanting the Tel Var system with a new currency into overland, with the difficulty increasing the more of said currency you carry - of course, with the additional risk of losing it upon death. The currency could then be traded in at specific merchants like Tel Vars, mostly for cosmetic fluff, crafting satchels, etc. Add in a few achievements with dyes and titles and I think most people would be content.

I'm thinking you up the difficulty for fun. No extra rewards or incentive needed. If you want a more difficult fight then more (or I guess less) power to you but no need for getting extra goodies.

Hapexamendios · February 2021

You can already make yourself weaker for more challenge: take off armor, no food/drink/mundus, take off all your CP etc.

Iccotak · February 2021

Hapexamendios wrote: »

You can already make yourself weaker for more challenge: take off armor, no food/drink/mundus, take off all your CP etc.

That’s not challenging, it’s just tedious.

Like @stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO said, you make enemies tougher by making them more capable

Hapexamendios · February 2021

You ever tried fighting a world boss with no armor, weapons etc? It's pretty challenging.

kargen27 · February 2021

Hapexamendios wrote: »

You can already make yourself weaker for more challenge: take off armor, no food/drink/mundus, take off all your CP etc.

Not really the point though. Wouldn't it be better if instead of needing to do all that you could just eat a bit of food that weakens you? Changing out the CP costs gold and the rest takes time. Time is gold so every time you want to do something a bit more difficult you eat into your stash of shiny coins.

Hapexamendios · February 2021

The time and gold are minimal imo.

Iccotak · February 2021

Hapexamendios wrote: »

You ever tried fighting a world boss with no armor, weapons etc? It's pretty challenging.

world boss is one thing, that's like saying dungeons are harder with no gear - no dip, but we're talking about general questing and especially the Main Quest

zvavi · February 2021

I think momentos are the best way to go about it

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · February 2021

My previous post needs a TL;DR:

One big problem is that overland trash mobs now have a "stupid" AI. They were a lot smarter when the game launched, but they have now been made stupid to make the fights easy. This can not be fixed by simply scaling damage and health.

If you wear bad gear or use some kind of debuff (if one were to be implemented), you will only make the fight longer, not harder, until you hit a threshold and the fight becomes downright impossible because you are either one-shot through block or overwhelmed by sustained damage. What is needed is some kind of fight mechanic even for trash fights.

When I first played ESO back in 2014-2015, mobs were reasonably capable fighters with different combat styles. Some were quick on their feet, and many used several different abilities which you needed to counter. They had strengths and weaknesses depending on their type, and they had individuality. They were at least somewhat unpredictable, and that is what makes a fight challenging and fun, instead of just tedious.

Cireous · February 2021

I'd wear that 2 piece set.

xericdx · February 2021

Looking at the history of the game and the direction it took, from making contents easier since after the Beta/beginning, to One Tamriel, and so on... I doubt that major reforms affecting all players and/or instancing difficulty modes will ever happen. Looking at some players' comments in other posts, maybe even for the better.

The only good fix I agree would be to make basic enemies mechanics more entertaining (not just thougher and more dmg) but again, that is linked to overall difficulty and ZOS resources on basic parts of the game. So, not much hope on that either.

I understand that some might feel that mine and others similar proposals are half cooked. But I think that we are shooting ourselves in the foot, signaling to ZOS that any small incremental change will be met with skepticism and with the "either change the game fully in the direction I like of **** off" attitude. Maybe I am wrong at being to pessimistic on major changes happening in the overland system but well, that remains my opinion.

I'll try to make a summary/edit in the intial post, but otherwise cheers all!

Pyr0xyrecuprotite · February 2021

Faulgor wrote: »

XP is also not really a worthwhile reward, as most players that look for more of a challenge are effectively maxed out in that regard.

@Faulgor
Not true when Update 29 comes out. Another person recently posted that you need at least 2100 CP in the new system to really fill out the best damage-dealing passives. This means that players who are currently CP-capped will very likely need to grind XP again. (After 5 years of avoiding grinding, i'm only around cp1840 myself - there will be SOME players already above 2100CP, but very very few). So having bonus XP gained as an incentive seems viable to me.