PTS Update 29 - UNofficial Feedback Thread for Race changes

Wuerstal · January 2021

Since there is no official Feedback Thread for this topic I thought I might as well create one myself.
Feel free to make your points here. I know there are already some Threads about racial passive changes but they mostly focus on one race.

My Oppinion:

Things I like: The change of the bosmer passives.

Most things I don't have a strong oppinion about because who cares if dunmer get 35 max magicka and stamina tbh.

Things I dislike: Orc, Altmer, Argonian, Redguard. For different reasons:

Lets start of with

Redguard: as it is the most cut and dry: They need a buff. They are in a really bad place and the change of racial passives would be a nice time to give them some love.

Altmer: I don't get why they now also need to get weapon dmg. I don't mind it that much but I can't see the reason? Now altmer are better stam-pds than most of the stamina based races, i.e. Redguard, Nord, (arguably Bosmer too). So we have the strongest magicka race that is now also a pretty strong stamina race. Why? In my oppinion overtuned.

Orc: The same logic as with altmer applies here. You have the stronges stamina race that is now better at magicka useage than other magicka races, i.e. Argonians, Bretons.
Sure they got 1k stam taken from them, but honestly? That will change very little.

Argonians: Now this is where it gets juicy.
Argonians got 1k stam extra. well... nice? I guess? Don't really know why I would want that on an argonian but I'll take what I can get.
Nerf to potion passive is just uncalled for. Its some burst resource return that you can do every 45 seconds, which is nice but alot of people have done the math behind it and its actually worse now than the flat recovery bonuses of a khajiit. Sure it comes in bursts but did anyone really call for a nerf on that? I don't think so. Because it was literaly the only thing argonians had going for them. And that is because:

They did not touch the "grants 6% healing done" passive what so ever. Its a horrible passive to have. Why? for 6% healing done to actually mean anything you already need a good amount of spell/weapon dmg that only dps really get to. Lets go over the different roles a character can have and check what argonians are good at:
Stam-Dps: No, choose a stam race.
Mag-Dps: No, choose any other magicka race.
Tank: yeah kinda.. but you could just go for any other race for a tank tbh. doesn't matter that much.
Healer: No, choose: Breton, Altmer, Dunmer, or just play an ORC. Even orcs are better healers than argonians because 256 spell damage scale your healing higher at low levels of spell damage than 6% more healing done.

Tl;dr:
Orcs are powerfull for everything, same with altmer.
Redguard and Argonians aren't even good in the field they are designed for.

Give Redguard some dmg or maxstat related buffs, give argonians some spell/weapon dmg. Doesn't need to be as much as 256, but just some bonus to offset the subpar passives. maybe half.

Ratzkifal · January 2021

Bosmer have been described as stealthy in ever game's description since Arena. That's 25 years of being stealthy. Their most famous poem is called "One Thousand Benefits of Hiding", they have something called "The Rite of Theft" where they steal something and then offer the original owner a trade for whatever they stole - the more difficult to steal or the more prestige it holds the better, not necessarily monetary value.
Back when Bosmer still had stealth they were not competitively viable, so anyone who made their Bosmer made it for stealth (or to be cute, or because it was the only stamina race available to them because they dislike Khajiit).

Racial passives are meant to reflect the lore and/or culture of your race. Detection has no lore support for it. The only race described to be perceptive are Orcs, specifically Woodorcs, who have to deal with sneaky Bosmer stealing from their strongholds.

Detection is also detrimental if you are a stealth character yourself. Here is evidence of that.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Basically recreating/reposting my old post, because I can't quote it thanks to the thread being locked.

Test1: No medium Armor on both, the one with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye.

Without wearing any armor, the "danger" indicator is nonexistant for the person being revealed. You go from completely hidden straight to full reveal. However there is some very wonky behavior as I am constantly going "hidden" again since no combat is happening, only to be immediately detected as soon as the indicator goes to "hidden" without any of us moving. This is when sneaking face toward face. The fennec fox pet was friendly enough to not go into stealth, so you can still tell where my sneaking Bosmer friend is. Note that he is not standing on top of the flag but slightly behind it (there is room for about another crouching Bosmer between him and the flag).

Test2: One has full medium armor with passives, the other with the red orbs has 3/3 Hunter's Eye

This time the Bosmer without the Hunter's Eye passive put on 7 pieces of medium armor, none of which interact with detection nor stealth beyond the medium armor passive. As you can clearly see, the Bosmer without Hunter's Eye is made aware of a nearby enemy through the "danger" indicator - the half opened eye. The Bosmer with Hunter's eye is still hidden and has no idea an enemy even exists in the area. This time the helpful fox behaved and went properly into hiding. The duel flag is touching the Hunter's Eye Bosmer's heel this time.

In Imperial City you will often find yourself in situations where both players are sneaking, so exactly this scenario.

Since you are somewhat stuck with your racial passives, any passive that could be detrimental to a certain playstyle should not be baked into an unflexible system like racial passives. Rather players should make the conscious decision to get detection if they so choose after they picked their race and class. As a reminder, the new Champion Points have a star that offers 3m of Detection in Fitness that does not need to be slotted.

Edit for clarity: I wanna make it clear that I very much like the permanent movement speed and penetration that was added. Although this might not put Bosmer near the top, it does help close the gap.

Cundu_Ertur · January 2021

R, you may wanna update your first post to note that you like the Bosmer changes that were made, but still find the lack of a bonus to hiding inexcusable (or pick your own adjective. I suggest 'stupid, moronic, asinine, unforgivable,' or 'utterly contrary to all the laws of nature, man and God'). As it stands now, it sounds like you are just peachy with the new passives, when we both know you have always expected Bosmer to be stealthy. Those who haven't tracked this issue since it first came up may misunderstand your meaning.

Cundu_Ertur · January 2021

I was thinking about Redguards, would expanding their 8% cost reduction to all stamina abilities, not just weapons abilities, help address some of their weakness or is that just putting icing on a crap-cake?

JobooAGS · January 2021

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I was thinking about Redguards, would expanding their 8% cost reduction to all stamina abilities, not just weapons abilities, help address some of their weakness or is that just putting icing on a crap-cake?

Considering how stam sustain is so easy to come by, it is more so putting “icing on a crap cake” better to give them more damage even if it means losing some of its sustain (eg. Changing martial knowledge from cost reduction to damage)

Ratzkifal · January 2021

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I was thinking about Redguards, would expanding their 8% cost reduction to all stamina abilities, not just weapons abilities, help address some of their weakness or is that just putting icing on a crap-cake?

It would "help". The issue is that stamina costs are already lower than magicka costs and 8% of nothing isn't much. Adding to that, in trial situations sustain is plenty. You have synergies and sets that restore stamina to the damage dealers so all the "sustain races" automatically fall behind. If we consider that with the new CP system everyone can run parse food now sustain has become even more accessible.

What I think Redguards could use is a variable passive similar to Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons that offers stats depending on the type of weapon they have equipped. If this extends to bows and staves this opens up Redguard to more specs which is something ZOS seems to be wanting this patch if we look at Orc, Argonians and Altmer changes.

Lumenn · January 2021

Orcs made out pretty good. One glyph of stamina was taken(and flung argonians way like it helps) and they get max magicka dmg(laughing at said argonian as they now heal better) and a 2k heal every 4 seconds. I mean wow.....

So many have done the math on argonian potion passives vs normal regen, even regeneration gear beating argonian even with maxed potion reduction. Healing done was never adjusted. At this point it feels like trolling.

Bosmer. I actually don't hate this. I want stealth back. Lore says it, but lore also says they have talent with magicka(spinners) and that's been ignored(either through bonus or regeneration)

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

My observations (so far) regarding Argonian racial changes:

- In general - Argonian racial passives feels... underwhelming to say the least.
- Sustain is way too hard, as racial sustain passive took a huge nerf (3125 recurses vs 4000 recurses currently on live).
- It is better to go for passive recovery (potion based builds were killed-of).
- There is no CP to boost potion-based playstyle (no cooldwon, duration or resource restore from potion CP bonus). It feels incoherent as other types of recoveries are supported by CP.
- Argonians still have almost "zero" offensive potential, and on top of that they no longer have decent sustain too.
- Healing bonus they have is still too low to be relevant (tested it, casted a couple of heals with a character with no passives and then bought live mender... I could barely notice any difference).
- Swim speed bonus seems to be more impactful than live mender...
- Stamina bonus is nice, but it wont make Argonians a event a decent stam dps.
- Poison resistance instead of disease immunity is very nice and also fits perfectly (lore).

Other thing I found:
I wanted to see how much you can "min-max" Resourceful passive. As you know, with infused jewellery with Glyph of Potion Speed, you can get down to 21 seconds of potion cool-down (8 + 8 + 8 = 24 second less from default 45) . This means that:

3125 resources restore translates to 297 recovery.

3125 / 21 = 148 per second, so 148 x 2 = 296 per 2 seconds

However, if one would decide to use Glyph of Prismatic Recovery on infused jewellery, that means you get 402 recovery.

134 + 134 +134 = 402

So basically, you restore less, even though you have a "kiss-curse" effect, as you have to drink potions that have an actual gold cost and are limited... Even if we compare live server values of Resourceful passive (4000) it is still less recovery:

4000 / 21 = 190 per second, so 190 x 2 = 380 per 2 seconds

On live server however this makes sense since those values come closer together (380 vs 402) so you can be flexible and use different types of potions to supplement your build. But still, I think that the fact that you need a potion that is consumed in a 1st place should be counted too into this (Resourceful) passive strengths & weakness.

So, comparing new (PTS) values of this passive vs using Glyphs of Prismatic Recovery we get even worse result: 296 vs 402
^ I think it should be the other way around. Active gameplay & using consumables in a strategic moment should be rewarded more, than just having a passive recovery that works in the background.

My main pain points:

Life Mender:
Like I have said, It feels... like this passive is not there. I can place points out of it and I can barely notice any difference. To put it into perspective - Swimming speed bonus seems more impactful than this healing bonus... it is that weak.... 6% healing done only...
Meanwhile gear set bonus is 4%... As far as I can tell, when it was changed during racial rebalance the gear set bonus was 2%. Later on it was buffed to 4%, but Argonian passive was left untouched.

^ It needs to be looked at as this passive seems to be below current standards.

Resourceful:
Nerf in effective to this passive feels like it is too big, and unnecessary. This passive was always mathematically stronger as it is not affected by passive % recovery bonus and CP and it requires a consumable to use. So it has quite a substitutional kiss-curse effect. Also, it is important to remember that situations when you will actually use its full potential (recover all 3 resources) are extremely rare. Most of the time you use it to get one or two resource pools back and the 3rd is almost always wasted.

Other thoughts:
Glyph of Potion Speed should be updated to new standards, with a slight increase of effectiveness,

or:

Resourceful passive should be re-evaluated to provide current "live server" values (or possible stronger) recovery, since it has a kiss-curse effect.

Ascarl · January 2021

I agree to to all of the OPand want to add that Khajiit are hit hard as well without having been near the top before. With all the crit nerfs the extra 2% damage and crit bonus will not offset the losses.
Crit damage is the Khajiit unique selling point and this is already situational (useless for tanks, niche at best for PVP and utterly useless with the Malacath meta).

Ratzkifal · January 2021

Lumenn wrote: »

Orcs made out pretty good. One glyph of stamina was taken(and flung argonians way like it helps) and they get max magicka dmg(laughing at said argonian as they now heal better) and a 2k heal every 4 seconds. I mean wow.....

So many have done the math on argonian potion passives vs normal regen, even regeneration gear beating argonian even with maxed potion reduction. Healing done was never adjusted. At this point it feels like trolling.

Bosmer. I actually don't hate this. I want stealth back. Lore says it, but lore also says they have talent with magicka(spinners) and that's been ignored(either through bonus or regeneration)

It's not clear what exactly the Spinners are, but it looks like either divine miracles or tonal magic similar to the Thu'um of the Nords and the Tonal Arcitecture of the Dwemer, which is magicka-less magic.
Whatever it is, luckily Bosmer have permanent offensive penetration now, so their magic damage is better! Now only the stealth is missing in my opinion.

Ratzkifal · January 2021

Ascarl wrote: »

I agree to to all of the OPand want to add that Khajiit are hit hard as well without having been near the top before. With all the crit nerfs the extra 2% damage and crit bonus will not offset the losses.
Crit damage is the Khajiit unique selling point and this is already situational (useless for tanks, niche at best for PVP and utterly useless with the Malacath meta).

Didn't they say last time that the only reason Khajiit couldn't get crit chance as a racial passive was because crit chance was overperforming compared to other damage sources? If that's the case why didn't they change their passive back to crit chance now?

Lumenn · January 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

Orcs made out pretty good. One glyph of stamina was taken(and flung argonians way like it helps) and they get max magicka dmg(laughing at said argonian as they now heal better) and a 2k heal every 4 seconds. I mean wow.....

So many have done the math on argonian potion passives vs normal regen, even regeneration gear beating argonian even with maxed potion reduction. Healing done was never adjusted. At this point it feels like trolling.

Bosmer. I actually don't hate this. I want stealth back. Lore says it, but lore also says they have talent with magicka(spinners) and that's been ignored(either through bonus or regeneration)

It's not clear what exactly the Spinners are, but it looks like either divine miracles or tonal magic similar to the Thu'um of the Nords and the Tonal Arcitecture of the Dwemer, which is magicka-less magic.
Whatever it is, luckily Bosmer have permanent offensive penetration now, so their magic damage is better! Now only the stealth is missing in my opinion.

Or could easily be illusion magicka. They always had a bonus in alchemy, which was a magicka skill until skyrim. Oblivion gave them a bonus in alteration. Their moving city. Communion with plants. I've seen them as strong in illusion, alteration, and alchemy at the least.

ESO_Nightingale · January 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

I agree to to all of the OPand want to add that Khajiit are hit hard as well without having been near the top before. With all the crit nerfs the extra 2% damage and crit bonus will not offset the losses.
Crit damage is the Khajiit unique selling point and this is already situational (useless for tanks, niche at best for PVP and utterly useless with the Malacath meta).

Didn't they say last time that the only reason Khajiit couldn't get crit chance as a racial passive was because crit chance was overperforming compared to other damage sources? If that's the case why didn't they change their passive back to crit chance now?

becuase everyone would take it because it's still highly desireable.

DreadDaedroth · January 2021

Argonian potion resource was already nerfed with the other racial update this one is not needed, bring back the 4500 restore.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Argonian potion resource was already nerfed with the other racial update this one is not needed, bring back the 4500 restore.

Agree on that. I actually backed it up with numbers. Is short: If you use potion cool-down glyphs, with current live values of Resourceful (4000) you basically get 380 recovery. But, if you will use tri-stat recovery glyphs you gain 402 - "free" recovery, you dont need to drink potions. However, on live you at least can use other potions (not necessarily recovery potions), as those 2 values (380 vs 402) come close together.

However, PTS Resourceful (3125) with 3 infused potion cool-down glyphs only gets you about 297 recovery... compared to 402 with 3 infused tri-stat recovery glyphs ... no, you can not compare it... those dont even come close anymore.

^ That is why I think ZOS should either do not change Resourceful or they should buff potion cool-down glyphs slightly.

I mean I was kinda expecting Resourceful to be buffed actually (380 vs 402), not nerfed... Drinking potions (consuming then, with an actual gold cost and limited numbers) you should ALWAYS have stronger effect vs simply using passive recovery.

Other thing I discovered recently is that if you will not use potion cooldown glyphs, and drink potion every 45 seconds, PTS Resourceful (3125) will only get you like 138 recovery....

So, now, you can have basically Resourcefu passive on any race - all you have to do is to use one tri-stat recovery glyph on infused jewellery - it will get you very close - 134 / 134 / 134 recovery....

EDIT:
I think it will be better to put it this way: You can get stronger recovery than Argonian's Resourceful passive with CP. There is a CP that will get you 150 / 150 / 150 flat recovery bonus.

Vizirith · January 2021

If they were looking at giving races more of a flexibility between mag and stam idk why they added the full amounts.

High should be 258 sp dmg and 129 wep dmg.
Orc should be the inverse: 258 wep dmg and 129 sp dmg.
Khajiit: 10% crit dmg, and add like 3% crit chance or just 129 sp and wep dmg.
Wood Elf should just get like maybe 1k mag or 129 sp dmg or something.

anadandy · January 2021

The other issue with Bosmer Detection passive is it has no utility in PVE. NPCs do not sneak - the type of "steath" they use, like NPC Nightblade ambush, doesn't proc Detection.

No other race has a passive that is only (marginally as pointed out by Ratzkifal) useful in only one segment of the game. Maybe Bretons with AP bonus but you can get AP doing PVE quests in Cyro.

Since passives are being reworked anyway, now is the perfect opportunity to correct this error.

Faulgor · January 2021

Problem is they have given no reason whatsoever for these changes, outside of "balance due to the new champion system".
How do the champion changes require Orcs to have Spell Damage, or Altmer Weapon Damage?

Argonians should have had stamina from the beginning, lore-wise, but with the other changes that's still not enough to make them worthwhile for anything.

Another thing, if the damage races get Spell and Weapon Damage, why don't the sustain races get Magicka and Stamina Recovery? I suppose Khajiit do, but still. Why don't Redguard, Bosmer, Breton have both recovery stats? And why did Orc need to have the equivalent of 1000 Health Recovery?

It's all so bizarre.

ExistingRug61 · January 2021

Personally I think the issue with Argonians is that is has such a varied spread of passives types that don't work well together, as opposed to being focused. It's a bit all over the place.

Consider comparing to Khajiit, as they are quite similar

Both races give:
Tri-stats: Argonian 1000 of each vs Khajiit 825 of each
Tri-regen: Argonian equates to 3125/45 = 69 per sec of each = 138 rec of each (unaffected by buffs) vs Khajiit 100 health and 85 stam/mag but can be affected by buffs to say 180 and 153 (with +80%)

So that's fairly similar, with Argonian being slightly ahead in stats vs Khajiit having the edge in regen.

Then Khajiit has its crit damage bonus, now at 12%.
Argonian has poison and disease resistance and its healing done bonus of 6%.
Trying to equate these we can compare via the Mundus stones: Khajiit's bonus is 110% of Shadow, vs Argonian's being 75% of Ritual. So by that Khajiit is ahead, but then Argonian gets its resistances to balance (at least mathematically, not necessarily gameply wise).

All of the above somewhat supports the idea that Khajiit and Argonian racials have similar power budgets.

They key difference here is that Khajiit's unique bonus can apply well to DPS (which is king) of either stamina or magicka, and also to healing. Which all synergise with the stats and the regen.
Whereas Argonian racial is specified into only healing (at a lower amount) and then offsets this with resistances that don't actually help that role, and neither does the stamina as healing is generally magicka. And the healing amount isn't enough to make it stand out from general magicka races at healing.

I think Argonian racials needs to focus more heavily into one area.
Maybe it could be the healing race, in which case maybe life mender needs to become stronger, or potentially it could be the regen or potion race, in which case it needs to become stronger at the potion triggered effect (not necessarily just increase resource return, could be some other triggered buff - maybe even double down on the healing thing and increase healing done/received from potion use).
Given that power budget wise Argonian is already seemingly at about the right level, these changes would need to come at the expense of one of the other passives, either reduced stats or reduced resistances. But the gain would be a more focused and synergistic set of passives.

honey_badger82 · January 2021

From what I see here no one has even mentioned them killing Imperials for tanks. Before I could block and light attacks would proc Red Diamond for stamina restore. A extra 3% reduction in ability cost comes absolutely no where close to reducing the costs of lower costing abilities enough to offset the loss in sustain. You would have to be Jonny on the spot and spam abilities once a second every 5 seconds to see anything meaningful in reduction over what is lost. Now it's a pure dps skill, you have to spend for any return where as the skill in it's current state can proc from non stamina costing light and heavy attacks.

They have made stamina sustain hard enough as it is for stamina tanks being that somehow it makes sense that standing still in one spot bracing with a shield should stop stamina restore, like your holding your breath to brace or something. Yet on the other hand swinging a weapon with all of your might restores stamina!? Stacking stamina restore on pure tanks is practically worthless due to this moronic system now one of the good tank races for sustain is getting a huge nail in its coffin for no reason.

IronWooshu · January 2021

Orcs heal for 2k every 4 seconds lol

Seems really excessive for no reason.

phantasmalD · January 2021

Argonians should have lost their HP bonus instead of having their potion passive nerfed, every instance of past lore portrays them with -Endurance so they aren't supposed to be tanky.

If there's any race that should have the whole triple stat package, it should be the Imperials.

Tbh, with the boost to the base HP, the hp bonus is kinda pointless for most roles.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

They key difference here is that Khajiit's unique bonus can apply well to DPS (which is king) of either stamina or magicka, and also to healing. Which all synergise with the stats and the regen.

Yeah, I always found it just laughable how the Khajiit passive is worded so that it's provides a substantial boost to both healing and dps while argonians get something that only affects healing.

I dislike the idea of further shoehorning argonians into the healer cubicle (even though I am a healer) but if they gonna do that then at least make sure they are the best at it. :V

Wuerstal · January 2021

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given that power budget wise Argonian is already seemingly at about the right level, these changes would need to come at the expense of one of the other passives, either reduced stats or reduced resistances. But the gain would be a more focused and synergistic set of passives.

Well I kinda agree with most of what you said but your argonians power budget beeing on the right level i highly disagree. Or I do agree. It depends on how you look at things. You chose khajiit to compare them, which is fair as they are the most similar. but when you try to compare them with orc, altmer, dunmer.... then the argonian (and khajiit, redguard,....,) power budget lacks more than a full set-bonus.

Koronach · January 2021

phantasmalD wrote: »

Argonians should have lost their HP bonus instead of having their potion passive nerfed, every instance of past lore portrays them with -Endurance so they aren't supposed to be tanky.

Yeah I agree, if anything Argonians should of been healer & mag/stam dps. That fits pretty much all the other games in the TES series. We see then as Alchemists/ Healers, Mages, Assassins, and Thieves. No wonder they can't figure out wtf to do with Argonian passives, they want them to be tanks and they never were.

Lumenn · January 2021

I honestly thought them being tanks was a player evolution. Zos-"block stops stamina regen" Players- "Potions still work-ergo argonians" =master tanks. My memory is foggy but didn't regen USED to work through block and was nerfed?

Firstmep · January 2021

Bosmer: I dont see why their most thematic passive was changed? Yes roll spamming nightblades loved the wood elves, so what? This one of the most thematic and fitting passives in the game, absolutely 0 reason to change it.

Orc: The spell damage passive seems wierd, the heal passive buff is pretty welcome, overall liking it.

Altmer: Again not sure whats the point in giving a historically magic aligned race a stamina related bonus.

Nord: Yes. Some ppl are blowing losing a whopping 1.3k armor from the most stat dense race out of proportions, but whatever. This was a long time coming, and as someone with mostly Nord toons im happy.

Argonian: Is this a push to make Argonian a better tank race with the extra stam? I dont get it. Also their potion passive once again was a very thematic and cool one, no need to nerf it.

Overall some wierd changes, apart from the slight Nord nerf, which shouldve happened like 2 years ago, frankly.

ExistingRug61 · January 2021

Wuerstal wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given that power budget wise Argonian is already seemingly at about the right level, these changes would need to come at the expense of one of the other passives, either reduced stats or reduced resistances. But the gain would be a more focused and synergistic set of passives.

Well I kinda agree with most of what you said but your argonians power budget beeing on the right level i highly disagree. Or I do agree. It depends on how you look at things. You chose khajiit to compare them, which is fair as they are the most similar. but when you try to compare them with orc, altmer, dunmer.... then the argonian (and khajiit, redguard,....,) power budget lacks more than a full set-bonus.

Yeah I was possibly a bit unclear on that. I meant they mathematically have about the right power budget, if you simply convert all the bonuses using ZOS's set bonus equivalence (SBE). But I should have been clearer that this is not the same thing as effective gameplay power.

Mathematically, Argonian (and Khajiit) are actually in pretty much the same ballpark as Orc, Altmer and Dunmer. Its just that those three races all specialise with their passives all focused towards damage. Whereas a race like Argonian has too much of its power budget "wasted" on things that aren't actually useful.
And hence Orc, Altmer and Dunmer become stronger in actual gameplay.

Example

Consider comparing Argonian to Altmer
Stats: Even (Argonian gets 1.5x as much in total but its a hybrid bonus so using which from the glyph ratio is equivalent)
Resource restore: Argonian 69/sec of all. High Elf 112/sec of off resource. Argonian better SBE wise.
Could call this even once we take into account Altmer's damage reduction passive, which is a bit hard to quantify in terms of SBE.

So then its Altmer damage, which comes in at 258/238 = 108% of a mundus. [Note: I am only treating this as one of either spell or weapon damage, even though Altmer now get both, as in practicality only one is ever relevant, and ZOS have recently taken the approach that damage is always both on recent sets and passives and only counts as one bonus]

And Argonian has healing done at 75% of a mundus, but also gets its poison and disease resistance.

So overall mathematically the totals are similar, if anything Argonian just ahead.

But Altmer is clearly a stronger race gameplay wise, because it's key passives work together well, for either magicka dps or healing.

Hence, a rearrangement of the racial to make it more focused, without changing the mathematical power budget, is what I suggested could be a good approach. Remove or reduce the bonuses that aren't actually particularly helpful, and use that power budget to increase the things that are. My suggestion would be to remove the health bonus, reduce the resistances and then increase both the resource restore and healing done, to try to make argonian's actually the strongest at hybrid resources and healing.

MaegMaeg · January 2021

Koronach wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Argonians should have lost their HP bonus instead of having their potion passive nerfed, every instance of past lore portrays them with -Endurance so they aren't supposed to be tanky.

Yeah I agree, if anything Argonians should of been healer & mag/stam dps. That fits pretty much all the other games in the TES series. We see then as Alchemists/ Healers, Mages, Assassins, and Thieves. No wonder they can't figure out wtf to do with Argonian passives, they want them to be tanks and they never were.

So true!

To support this variety argonians should get 129 spell and weapon dmg.
Reduce Life Mender (which is the most useless passive) from 6% to 4% and add the 129 spell+weapon dmg, so they get 2 small set boni instead of one big one.

Resourceful just like its on live now.

Keep 1k stam from pts but lower HP to 1k or remove the HP bonus.

This way they would become viable for any type of gameplay.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Mathematically, Argonian (and Khajiit) are actually in pretty much the same ballpark as Orc, Altmer and Dunmer. Its just that those three races all specialise with their passives all focused towards damage. Whereas a race like Argonian has too much of its power budget "wasted" on things that aren't actually useful.
And hence Orc, Altmer and Dunmer become stronger in actual gameplay.

Tbh. If I remember correctly, ZOS was using gear set bonus to determine "power budget". But, when racial rebalance took place, Argonian Live Mender passive (6% healing bonus) was based on old gear set healing bonus - that was 2% at the time. Later on ZOS buffed this gear set bonus to 4%, as it was heavily underperforming compared to other gear set bonuses (weapon/spell dmg; stam/mag bonus ; crit bonus etc.)

However, the thing is that they left Argonian passive unchanged. So it seems that this passive should be updated too. Mathematically, if it was 3x times of the gear set bonus (3x 2% healing), it should be 12% (3x 4% healing). So it seems to me that "power budget" can potentially be higher.
(Khajiit for example will now have 12% crit dmg, approximately 110% - 115% of The Shadow mundus's 11%).

ExistingRug61 · January 2021

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Mathematically, Argonian (and Khajiit) are actually in pretty much the same ballpark as Orc, Altmer and Dunmer. Its just that those three races all specialise with their passives all focused towards damage. Whereas a race like Argonian has too much of its power budget "wasted" on things that aren't actually useful.
And hence Orc, Altmer and Dunmer become stronger in actual gameplay.

Tbh. If I remember correctly, ZOS was using gear set bonus to determine "power budget". But, when racial rebalance took place, Argonian Live Mender passive (6% healing bonus) was based on old gear set healing bonus - that was 2% at the time. Later on ZOS buffed this gear set bonus to 4%, as it was heavily underperforming compared to other gear set bonuses (weapon/spell dmg; stam/mag bonus ; crit bonus etc.)

However, the thing is that they left Argonian passive unchanged. So it seems that this passive should be updated too. Mathematically, if it was 3x times of the gear set bonus (3x 2% healing), it should be 12% (3x 4% healing). So it seems to me that "power budget" can potentially be higher.
(Khajiit for example will now have 12% crit dmg, approximately 110% - 115% of The Shadow mundus's 11%).

Yeah that’s true. I have been using the ritual mundus for my basis of comparison and in that context it’s close.

However, even with the gear set bonus being 4%, if you look at my previous examples comparing to Khajiit and Altmer, it is still pretty close mathematically in total, as Argonian has gained some extra effects this patch (although arguably they aren’t actually particularly useful).

In Khajiit case, once we ignore the things that are basically the same, we are left with Khajiit’s 12% crit (110% of mundus)vs Argonian 6% healing (75% of mundus) plus poison and disease resistance. Which is actually Argonian ahead due to the resistances being worth more than 35% of a mundus under ZOS current scheme, but the issue is the resistances aren’t actually that useful for actual gameplay as it’s not a synergistic effect.

In Altmer case the stats and restore are also quite similar (see previous post in spoiler tab), which leaves Altmer 258 damage (2 times a set bonus - note even though this gives both damages I would still consider it only worth 2 set bonuses as only one is relevant and ZOS seem to have been using combined weapon and spell damage as the standard on new crafted sets anyway) vs Argonian 6% healing (1.5 times a set bonus) plus its resistances. So again total set bonus wise Argonian is mathematically ahead due to the resistances being worth more than half a set bonus under ZOS’a equivalence, but again it’s issue is that in actual gameplay the resistance isn’t worth the loss of 0.5x set bonus of the actual synergistic stat.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that Argonian could use a change to its racials as it’s lacking. It’s too unfocused. But the actual set bonus worth is about right (although I could easily be persuaded that ZOS is over valuing elemental resistance) hence my suggestions of reducing less useful bonuses to buff more useful bonuses, as this would increase Argonians gameplay strength without simply over budgeting it mathematically.

Potentially this is an issue with the “spreadsheet balancing” approach. Things can be balanced in the spreadsheet but the actual result isn’t balanced in the game. Given that ZOS seem to follow this approach, I was trying to give a suggestion that would keep there “spreadsheet balancing” happy but also actually lead to gameplay improvements.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that Argonian could use a change to its racials as it’s lacking. It’s too unfocused. But the actual set bonus worth is about right (although I could easily be persuaded that ZOS is over valuing elemental resistance) hence my suggestions of reducing less useful bonuses to buff more useful bonuses, as this would increase Argonians gameplay strength without simply over budgeting it mathematically.

That could actually be done quite easily. Instead of adding flat 1K stamina to Argonian racial passive, how about simply changing 1K magicka to:

"Gain 1000 magicka or stamina, depending on your highest resource pool"

^ That way we would still remain within "power budget" as you would not get both mag & stam at the same time. This would also allow to leave potion passive as it is on live server (4000). It would even fit the lore as Argonians are known for their "adaptivnes".