The ethics of changing racial passives when considering that there is money involved.

CleymenZero · January 2021

I'm all for supporting the game but this is too much. We dealt with all the race changes and paid 2 years ago and now, for min-maxers, you'd want us to fork out another stack of race crowns for your race change tokens?

I embraced all the changes so far but when money's involved, that's where I draw the line. I pay for ESO plus, I pay for the *** chapters. Stop making changes to classes and races that make us pay even more. Completely dishonest.

CleymenZero · January 2021

1k stam doesn't seem like much considering the changes they made to base stam but that's the difference between perfected Relequen and non-perfected.

Knowing perfected Rele is out there, do you want it?

zvavi · January 2021

Orc was so dominant because the sustain given to red guards and woodelves is just not needed. Now instead of orc meta, we get dark elves. That will be "over powered" because nobody lacks sustain...

CleymenZero wrote: »

1k stam doesn't seem like much considering the changes they made to base stam but that's the difference between perfected Relequen and non-perfected.

Knowing perfected Rele is out there, do you want it?

Orcs were preferred on dark elves because of 150 stamina. Believe me. 910 stam difference pushes orcs put of the BiS.

Araneae6537 · January 2021

Free race and name changes tokens for everyone!

MellowMagic · January 2021

Imperials feel so weird now with the extra base health, it's way to much. They should lose 1k hp and gain 125 wep / spell power.

CleymenZero · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Orc was so dominant because the sustain given to red guards and woodelves is just not needed. Now instead of orc meta, we get dark elves. That will be "over powered" because nobody lacks sustain...

CleymenZero wrote: »

1k stam doesn't seem like much considering the changes they made to base stam but that's the difference between perfected Relequen and non-perfected.

Knowing perfected Rele is out there, do you want it?

Orcs were preferred on dark elves because of 150 stamina. Believe me. 910 stam difference pushes orcs put of the BiS.

Oh I'm very aware of all that. And I chose ORc and paid for race change tokens for all my stam to make them all Orc because of the changes they've made. It was a conscious decision because they made those changes, I obtained as many free race change tokens as I could and paid for the rest. I just don't think it's honest to play things that way.

MrGraves · January 2021

I agree that changing things like that as ZoS does is.... bad. I would rather if the races didn't have bonuses like that then have to make chars (if i want them to be meta or w.e) around what race they are and then that changes and unlike sets, i can't just. farm it and fix the problem when a new set comes out or mine gets nerfed. (which i also dislike but doesnt involve money) Which isnt me saying I WANT that to be the case but. stuff like this is. Not good.

Alternatively ZoS giving out free race changes also is kinda like them just saying to you "Yeah we nerfed the race so no one wants to play it (for stats) anymore so here u go" which is.. also bad? bc why would you want to have an option that is (objectively) the worse option. not a preference of "oh i want a crit build" etc it's just overall worst option.

Sanctum74 · January 2021

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Free race and name changes tokens for everyone!

They did it last time, let’s hope they do it again.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

MellowMagic wrote: »

Imperials feel so weird now with the extra base health, it's way to much. They should lose 1k hp and gain 125 wep / spell power.

No way. Hands off my HP.

CrimsonGTX · January 2021

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Free race and name changes tokens for everyone!

yeah they're going to have to do this again, I'm positive people will lose their minds if this goes live.

Starlock · January 2021

No, no, you've got it all wrong - remember everyone, it's optional! You don't have to be a min-maxer to play the game. That is a choice you made. You don't have to play the game that way at all. You can just not buy it - therefore race change is optional. Charging customers a large sum of money for a race change instead of having an in-game mechanism to do this is okay, because it's optional.

...

*cough*

...

The above, effectively, is what a lot of us get told when we point out the problems with this game's monetization for other aspects of the game. From housing to mounts, costumes to motifs, this game has a monetization problem but we get told "but it's optional" as if that somehow means it isn't a problem. And while I could here smiling in smug satisfaction at "finally, maybe, more players will get what I've been going on about now that it's biting them," that's not my style. Because race change *should* be a base game feature accessible to everyone for in-game gold from an actual NPC (maybe even part of a quest!). So should appearance changes, name changes, alliance changes, outfit slots, pet-exclusive inventory space, cash-shop exclusive ultimate charge ups (yes, that's going to be a thing - it's in the patch notes), and on and on and on.

Once monetization is baked into a game's design, rarely is it relented. This rubbish has become normalized, in part because those who raise the alarm get told "but it's optional" or "but it's only cosmetic" or some other thoroughly debunked excuse that devalues the customer's time and money. This game has been sliding down the slope of unethical monetization ever since someone thought it was a brilliant idea to introduce gambling. Perhaps earlier, but that's when things started getting ridiculous.

Good luck getting any of this to change. The only advice I have is to be careful what you buy in the cash shop, carefully track your spending, and really ask yourself some hard questions about what things are really worth to you. If we're lucky, they'll release a mini-DLC that just gives people infinite race/appearance changes for a one-time cost. If we're really lucky, they'll just go "wait, this was scummy, here, have this as a base-game feature." Hell, I can dream, can't I? *sigh*

marius_buys · January 2021

Each character should receive a free race change token

Nordic__Knights · January 2021

i do have to say this act is getting out of hand being i just spent lots of money on 18 toons last run of race passives to re-set them and now they did it again hope they see the meaning of their wrong and give change tokens out and not just 3 like last time thats 15 to lil

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

MrGraves · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

except you can go farm the next "best set" without paying out your ass.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

MrGraves wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

except you can go farm the next "best set" without paying out your ass.

And then the same crowd would then begin to whinge about "Pay2Win," etc.

We've seen it all before - you can't please everybody and someone will always be complaining. Developers are in a no-win situation whenever they make a change.

MrGraves · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MrGraves wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

except you can go farm the next "best set" without paying out your ass.

And then the same crowd would then begin to whinge about "Pay2Win," etc.

We've seen it all before - you can't please everybody and someone will always be complaining. Developers are in a no-win situation whenever they make a change.

farming sets without paying isnt pay to win and neither is being able to change race without paying real money. idk what you are getting at. rn we have to pay real money to change race. not sets. that is the difference between having to farm new sets every 3 months and having to change race anytime they change racial passives. I dont do min maxing much but I still think it's a bad move on ZoS' part to make these changes all the time.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2021

If any BiS set or item is obtained from a DLC then the anguished cries of "Pay2Win" are always soon to follow. It is as predictable as it is misguided.

In any case, you can also use Tamriel Crown Exchange to convert in-game gold to a Race Change Token. Yes, the price is high with current conversion rates but the option exists and that further subverts the contention of this thread. Players already pay millions of gold to gold-out jewelry pieces, consider it a related expense if min-maxing is so important.

All that said, I agree with you that Race Change should ideally be an in-game system accessible directly for in-game gold. I would say the same thing for Appearance Change and a barber system. But I do not see its absence as particularly egregious, especially in a gaming landscape littered with obvious examples of actual Pay2Win.

Starlock · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

And then the same crowd would then begin to whinge about "Pay2Win," etc.

We've seen it all before - you can't please everybody and someone will always be complaining. Developers are in a no-win situation whenever they make a change.

To some extent this is true, but in this case it isn't. Monetization design is a choice. It doesn't happen by accident. It's baked into the game on purpose, and there are different ways to approach it. Here are some ways a developer could have chosen to handle name/race/appearance changes, from the most egregiously monetized to the least:

Charge the customer separately for each and every instance of name change, race change, and appearance change. This cannot be bypassed by subscribing, or by using in-game currencies.
Charge the customer for each and every instance of a name/race/appearance change (all-in-one). This cannot be bypassed by subscribing, or by using in-game currencies.
Charge the customer for each and every instance of a combined name/race/appearance change. Provide unlimited name/race/appearance changes while subscribed.
Charge the customer for each and every instance of a combined name/race/appearance change. Also provide this service totally free of charge for in-game gold from an NPC or a quest.
Charge the customer once for a mini-DLC that adds name/race/appearance changes at no cost as many times as the customer wants to use it. Also provide this service totally free for in-game gold from an NPC or a quest.
Integrate name/race/appearance changes into the base game for an in-game gold cost. Do not monetize the system at all.

We got the worst one on the list - the top one. That was a deliberate design choice that favors profit margins over the wallets of customers. It's the sort of design that used to be - and should have stayed - confined to free-to-play titles. Any game that includes microtransactions with no upper spending limit - something common in free-to-play titles - has a monetization problem. The win-win is allowing customers to only have to buy the service token ONCE, if at all.

CleymenZero · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

Lol... Are you ok?

You pay for eso plus, you get the DLCs, you pay for eso plus, you DON'T get race change tokens... How the hell is that the same? The sets are readily available for no more money that you already pay for... You just need to farm them which is an ingame mechanisms.

You can't really get race changes through in game means unless you gold for Crown which is gonna cost you 1.2mil per character you want to swap. I have 6 orc. gg..

colossalvoids · January 2021

@ZOS_GinaBruno any free race change tokens at U29 launch?

jlmurra2 · January 2021

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Free race and name changes tokens for everyone!

At this point I feel that race, apperance, name, alliance, class, really any, and all options made when initially creating a character should be made changeable at anytime for all players at no charge.

All tokens that currently must be purchased to make these changes should be eliminated from the game.

Of course I understand why it will not happen.

CP5 · January 2021

Balance will continue to happen until the game is dead. If you are compelled to always be using the top meta race, or class, or weapon, or anything, change will happen. They aren't going to keep things the same forever, and even if they didn't change racials if they changed something else then the meta race could still shift.

CleymenZero · January 2021

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MrGraves wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

except you can go farm the next "best set" without paying out your ass.

And then the same crowd would then begin to whinge about "Pay2Win," etc.

We've seen it all before - you can't please everybody and someone will always be complaining. Developers are in a no-win situation whenever they make a change.

It's not pay2win it's a plain cash grab.

And seeing dishonest crap doesn't mean you have to accept it. Last time, there was a lot of negative feedback and they have 3 race change tokens. To me it wasn't enough cause I actually used 10! They decide to balance their game, they have to stop the *** making us paying out of pocket to follow meta scheme.

I don't understand people who stand with that. Not everybody can objectively position themselves in someone else's shoes. If it doesn't affect their interests, their thought process stops there.

CleymenZero · January 2021

CP5 wrote: »

Balance will continue to happen until the game is dead. If you are compelled to always be using the top meta race, or class, or weapon, or anything, change will happen. They aren't going to keep things the same forever, and even if they didn't change racials if they changed something else then the meta race could still shift.

There is an ethical problem when they makes changes that force the use or real world money. It somewhat a predatory business practice.

Balancing sets is a different story, balancing races is completely different.

hexnotic · January 2021

This does suck, but just remember that if you can find a crown seller that won’t rip you off then buying a race change with gold is a viable solution.

jaws343 · January 2021

You can gift race change tokens I believe. So, you can buy them with in game gold from other players.

Or, stop chasing the 1-2% difference meta race.

AlnilamE · January 2021

CleymenZero wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I am not seeing a problem, sorry OP.

It's the same as buffing or nerfing sets from DLCs or Chapter expansions.

Except that Nords were not dealt with remotely as harshly as, say, the Thrassian Stranglers were after the launch of Greymoor.

Lol... Are you ok?

You pay for eso plus, you get the DLCs, you pay for eso plus, you DON'T get race change tokens... How the hell is that the same? The sets are readily available for no more money that you already pay for... You just need to farm them which is an ingame mechanisms.

You can't really get race changes through in game means unless you gold for Crown which is gonna cost you 1.2mil per character you want to swap. I have 6 orc. gg..

You get crowns with ESO+ that allow you to buy race change tokens should you wish to do it.

If I could gift the change tokens we got last time, you could have mine.

But the thing is, people asked for race changes. They got them. Should ZOS have stopped trying to balance races after that?

CleymenZero · January 2021

hexnotic wrote: »

This does suck, but just remember that if you can find a crown seller that won’t rip you off then buying a race change with gold is a viable solution.

Still doesn't make it acceptable.

Stahlor · January 2021

zvavi wrote: »

Orcs were preferred on dark elves because of 150 stamina. Believe me. 910 stam difference pushes orcs put of the BiS.

More because of the additional health, making it possible to run recovery food.

Tommy_The_Gun · January 2021

1k less from racial passive, but overall you will get way more raw stats now. I get 2 - 3K stam more easily on PTS just from leveling up + new CP bonuses.

So overall, it is pretty much irrelevant nerf, Orcs got buffed by a lot as now they also have spell dmg too (better healers than Argonians) and they have ridiculously strong 2K health every 4 seconds... That is like what... 500 health regen ? Quite a lol to see ZOS buffing Orcs & Bretons and at the same time they nerf weakest race's sustain... Kinda inconsistant & wierd tbh.